AI Debt spiral

[Shadowstrike]

I might have missed this in the old thread, but does the community know why the AI debt spiral is happening? I remember when Stellaris had really terrible late-game lag, people were able to pin it down to the excessive number of job-switching checks every game tick.

 

[Kanem Bornu]

I might have missed this in the old thread, but does the community know why the AI debt spiral is happening? I remember when Stellaris had really terrible late-game lag, people were able to pin it down to the excessive number of job-switching checks every game tick.

The merc changes seem to have really overwhelmed AI economies.

 

[Shadowstrike]

I though the debt spirals precedes 1.30 though? I remember Russia, and the Ottomans regularly going bust before this too.

 

[Dargaron]

I might have missed this in the old thread, but does the community know why the AI debt spiral is happening? I remember when Stellaris had really terrible late-game lag, people were able to pin it down to the excessive number of job-switching checks every game tick.

One behavior that's definitely new to 1.30 is the AI getting into a loop of wanting to disband troops while it has mercs, but disbanding individual regiments instead of the mercs. At that point, the AI starts building new regiments because it wants to keep above a certain ratio of mercs/non-mercs. Then it disbands the new soldiers and repeats ad infinitum.

 

[Shadowstrike]

Ahh, that's an interesting observation. That's definitely something that can be fixed.

 

[StriderLS]

(After seeing the thread title) Once more, unto the breach!

I realised we have a lot of free time these days.

 

[grommile]

Why won't they incorporate old DLCs in their games

EU4 has had at least three major DLC features moved from DLCs to the base game. (Monarch-power-for-dev, estates, and government reforms.)

 

[EarlKonrad]

EU4 has had at least three major DLC features moved from DLCs to the base game. (Monarch-power-for-dev, estates, and government reforms.)

Yes, that is correct. And it is also worth mentioning that the incorporation of those mechanics (estates aside but their integration to the base game was rather iffy at the start) was seen a step in the right direction (at least in this forum). But it took how many years for that to happen? Also, it took Johan getting into the team for them to decide that it was a bad idea trying to maintain two code bases for government types & reforms.

I'll give them credit that that was a step on the right direction but it also begs the question of why not incorporate other crucial features locked behind half a decade old or even the entire DLCs. For example, why not roll American Dream, Res Publica, Wealth of Nation and Conquest of Paradise into the game?

American Dream is a very small, old and hidden DLC that marginally improves USA and nothing more. They can't touch USA because the country has an entire DLC dedicated to it, even though said DLC is below today's standards.

Res Publica marginally makes republic better and is also extremely old. I do wonder if one of the reason that they don't touch factions and barely address the republic issue is because of this DLC (it adds events, dictatorship and factions).

Than we have Wealth of Nations which is kind of useless nowadays because its selling point, TC, is also available for those who own Dharma.

Lastly, CoP, the first DLC released and one which had some great ideas that also show how PDXs development priorities changed with time. What this DLC do is add a MP sink for NA tribes and some unique buildings. These additions are cool in theory but America in general is very buggy and haven't seen any meaningful improvement or bug fix since El Dorado came out. Rolling the mechanics from this DLC into the base game would certainly help with some of the bugs associated with it.

I'd also add that rolling SLCs into the base game would attract new blood as a consequence of the general price of admission going down and the store front getting de-cluttered (is this even a word) as a consequence of there being less stuff to buy. I know there is no hard evidence one way or another but I think we can agree that a long standing issue with PDX is the amount of stuff you can buy for each of their games.

 

[grommile]

de-cluttered (is this even a word)

yes and I usually spell it without a hyphen

 

[4matic]

Paradox is quickly losing their credibility. As game developers, they ought to know that large expansions are highly susceptible to bugs.

I'm regretting pre-ordering CK3. Can see that being a disaster too with the content embargo red flag, and their current disregard for their customers.

 

[BadOrc]

Paradox is quickly losing their credibility. As game developers, they ought to know that large expansions are highly susceptible to bugs.

I'm regretting pre-ordering CK3. Can see that being a disaster too with the content embargo red flag, and their current disregard for their customers.

I dont pre-order stuff from any Gameing studio anymore. You never get what you wish for. EA Bethesda CA. Paradox is no exception. The industry is not what it was 10 years ago Btw we should stay on the topic AI debt the last thread got locked

 

[atwix]

Why should the consumer reward bad behavior? It's not like this is the one bad patch that slipped through the cracks: there's been a consistent pattern of patches being released with easily-replicated bugs (remember when a new Stellaris patch dropped and the AI wasn't able to declare war? Or when being in a Federation made you unable to use most CBs? For an EUIV example, aren't reformed Inti countries still unable to raise autonomy because they don't have religious authority?) Remember: DDRJake once said that reviews weigh ounces while sales weigh pounds. If someone is dissatisfied with the current trend of releasing very obviously-broken patches, what better way to show that dissatisfaction than to stop buying more content?

there is a flip side to that coin that people keep on tossing...

Why do people expect freebies that work perfectly from a *capitalist* company? The debt problem is free patch problem, NOT DLC related.

This isn't some Spring break beach where students roam the beach for someone giving free WIFI.. Only for them to complain "the bandwith is BAD!!!!!".

Giving this argument cause I see many people NOT owning the last DLC yelling the loudest on the forum... that 'OMG FIX BUGS NOW!!!!"

The community should be GLAD that this game still gets free bugfixing patches. If it wasn't for people buying DLC, the game would have lost support from devs years ago. First BUY something, and then you got a right to complain.


(disclaimer: I'm not implying here you can't say you won't buy DLC cause you think paradox gives buggy DLC releases. That is something each customer has to decide for themselves)

And to retort your last argument: DLC sales and number of people playing keep on rising with each major DLC released. So with the analogy you do, once can conclude the flip side of the coin is that NOONE outside this forum really cares and just waits for the free patch to fix things, rather then roam for free WIFI.

I for example just find a temporary AI mod fix while patiently waiting for a good 1.31 patch after their vacation is over.

I WILL however concur that 1.29 and 1.30 was the first patches I EVER started looking for mods that fix AI, cause it wasn't fixed "fast" enough. It is indeed a concerning evolution that problems and DLC patches take longer and longer period to get major bugfixing patch.. But that can also be explained cause they tend to throw in MORE free content in those patches last years. But noone praised or praises paradox for doing that...

Hope you folks don't mind the post, but the tone of all the posts in paradox vacation period are starting to get dull. It always the same in summer holiday or in the weeks after DLC releases. I'm just giving a different point of view.

 

[Atomcreator]

there is a flip side to that coin that people keep on tossing...

Why do people expect freebies that work perfectly from a *capitalist* company? The debt problem is free patch problem, NOT DLC related.

This isn't some Spring break beach where students roam the beach for someone giving free WIFI.. Only for them to complain "the bandwith is BAD!!!!!".

Giving this argument cause I see many people NOT owning the last DLC yelling the loudest on the forum... that 'OMG FIX BUGS NOW!!!!"

The community should be GLAD that this game still gets free bugfixing patches. If it wasn't for people buying DLC, the game would have lost support from devs years ago.

And to retort your last argument: DLC sales and number of people playing keep on rising with each major DLC released. So with the analogy you do, once can conclude the flip side of the coin is that NOONE outside this forum really cares and just waits for the free patch to fix things, rather then roam for free WIFI.

I for example just find a temporary AI mod fix while patiently waiting for a good 1.31 patch after their vacation is over.

I WILL however concur that 1.29 and 1.30 was the first patches I EVER started looking for mods that fix AI, cause it wasn't fixed "fast" enough.

Hope you folks don't mind the post, but the tone of all the posts in paradox vacation period are starting to get dull. It always the same in summer holiday or in the weeks after DLC releases. I'm just giving a different point of view.

The Ai.debt issue makes the game unplayable in my eyes. Therefore it is a critical bug fix that needs to be addressed. If they have introduced a bug that ruins the game then paradox need to fix it , quick.
And they haven't.

But really...we should be glad that they give us free bugfixes ? So are you saying we should pay for their mistakes ?

 

[BadOrc]

there is a flip side to that coin that people keep on tossing...

Why do people expect freebies that work perfectly from a *capitalist* company? The debt problem is free patch problem, NOT DLC related.

This isn't some Spring break beach where students roam the beach for someone giving free WIFI.. Only for them to complain "the bandwith is BAD!!!!!".

Giving this argument cause I see many people NOT owning the last DLC yelling the loudest on the forum... that 'OMG FIX BUGS NOW!!!!"

The community should be GLAD that this game still gets free bugfixing patches. If it wasn't for people buying DLC, the game would have lost support from devs years ago. First BUY something, and then you got a right to complain.


(disclaimer: I'm not implying here you can't say you won't buy DLC cause you think paradox gives buggy DLC releases. That is something each customer has to decide for themselves)

And to retort your last argument: DLC sales and number of people playing keep on rising with each major DLC released. So with the analogy you do, once can conclude the flip side of the coin is that NOONE outside this forum really cares and just waits for the free patch to fix things, rather then roam for free WIFI.

I for example just find a temporary AI mod fix while patiently waiting for a good 1.31 patch after their vacation is over.

I WILL however concur that 1.29 and 1.30 was the first patches I EVER started looking for mods that fix AI, cause it wasn't fixed "fast" enough. It is indeed a concerning evolution that problems and DLC patches take longer and longer period to get major bugfixing patch.. But that can also be explained cause they tend to throw in MORE free content in those patches last years.

Hope you folks don't mind the post, but the tone of all the posts in paradox vacation period are starting to get dull. It always the same in summer holiday or in the weeks after DLC releases. I'm just giving a different point of view.

I dont mind your opinion. But you do understand why many of us are upset?

 

[atwix]

The Ai.debt issue makes the game unplayable in my eyes. Therefore it is a critical bug fix that needs to be addressed. If they have introduced a bug that ruins the game then paradox need to fix it , quick.
And they haven't.

I am sure they were busy doing it, using free WIFI on that beach. Cynism off

They are back for 2 weeks now yes? They are likely busy with it. I'll repeat once again.. The debt problem is NOT a dlc problem, so it won't get hotfixed, cause hotfixed tend to adress problems related to DLC content (or so I thought). It will get fixed likely in the next free patch, 1.31, which will usually come 4-6 weeks after dlc release (not counting holidays). So I expect a fixing patch with even more free content in september.

Just have patience, I guess.

 

[atwix]

I dont mind your opinion. But you do understand why many of us are upset?

if you read my posts.. Doesn't it show i'm "upset" also? I admitted to looking for mods to fix AI debt, cause I deemed vanilla unplayable due to diplomacy issues regarding debt.

Its not because people don't 100% agree with forum opinions, that they are on another barricade opposite of them, yelling back... I am not.

I'm just giving a middle ground opinion here, and trying to incite people to be more reasonable and patient. Maybe I shouldn't, cause Paradox is now unworthy of such behaviour.... but that is up to every player to decide for themselves. I'll just use a mod and await a fix patiently.

 

[BadOrc]

if you read my posts.. Doesn't it show i'm "upset" also? I admitted to looking for mods to fix AI debt, cause I deemed vanilla unplayable due to diplomacy issues regarding debt.

Its not because people don't 100% agree with forum opinions, that they are on another barricade opposite of them, yelling back... I am not.

I'm just giving a middle ground opinion here, and trying to incite people to be more reasonable and patient. Maybe I shouldn't, cause Paradox is now unworthy of such behaviour.... but that is up to every player to decide for themselves. I'll just use a mod and await a fix patiently.

Yes i did read your posts. and you did mention that you for the first time you resorted to Mods. I just dont understand why u keep bringing up Free content i browse the forums every day sense 1.30 came out. And i have not seen anyone ^yell Free contant^ most of us just want to have a Hotfix for the AI debt issue. It might be a very easy fix in a txt document. a game breaking bug should not be something we need to pay extra for. I paid 20eu already for DLC content. Yes you said AI debt has nothing to do with the DLC but,how would you know? The 1.29 debt was there yes..but it was not this extrem.

 

[Canute VII]

I'll just use a mod and await a fix patiently.

The thing is, last time I awaited a fix patiently, it took them 1.5 years and... whatever they meant to fix is bugged in another way now. Just saying.

 

[atwix]

Yes i did read your posts. and you did mention that you for the first time you resorted to Mods. I just dont understand why u keep bringing up Free content i browse the forums every day sense 1.30 came out. And i have not seen anyone ^yell Free contant^ most of us just want to have a Hotfix for the AI debt issue. It might be a very easy fix in a txt document. a game breaking bug should not be something we need to pay extra for. I paid 20eu already for DLC content. Yes you said AI debt has nothing to do with the DLC but,how would you know? The 1.29 debt was there yes..but it was not this extrem.

I hope you can join the club then and wait patiently for a fix. There is really not much more to do then that. Sadly.

The thing is, last time I awaited a fix patiently, it took them 1.5 years and... whatever they meant to fix is bugged in another way now. Just saying.

That is due to code getting so complex that one butterfly fix can cause a tornado elsewhere in the code.. I suppose.

There is a lot to say about the fact that paradox takes longer and longer to fix problems with DLC patches outside of DLC content issues..

But in case of 1.30 emperor they did do a couple hotfixes, then went on holiday for month, and then likely moved on to develop 1.31 implementation of free content alongside with fixing a few free content bugs.

One could argue that gamebreaking bugs that aren't related to DLC content should also be hotfixed with priority... But that isn't really fair for people who have DLC bugs and bought it. And then again, also DLC buyers resent the game now due to debt problem.

I'll concede that this isn't the easiest of things to argue about, since whichever way you look at the problem, there is always arguments PRO and CONTRA the way paradox handles things.

 

[Atomcreator]

I'm not sure i understood what better Strategy you're proposing here. Or asked differently: what are the customer service agents you're speaking about supposed to do exactly?
Or what should they have done in the current predicament of EU IV ?

Many companies use online customer service agents these days.
They manage communities, foster relationships and present as a face of the company.
They also liase with all areas of the business to pass on current customer concerns on a proactive level, not allowing frustration and anger to take hold.
A lot of what we have seen with AI debt spiral is exactly that, Frustration at being ignored.
They manage all announcements on all platforms, not just an odd remark on twitter, which a number of people don't use, myself included.

These are now very legitimate jobs, IF a company is concerned about its reputation and keeping customers happy.
If all they care about is the bottom line, then so be it.