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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

coodav

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I was going through the doctrines with TreborTheTall (good work by the way), and noted that there weren't any covert operation threads in the top few sheets. My guess is that this is because on the scale we typically use for most games, they are not a big deal. Few people seem to use them, and because they are fairly costly, and have a modest likelihood of success, they are not commonly focused on.

That said, AIs don't use them that way. AIs use them every single turn, hitting you with so many operations, you can't possibly do a thing. For instance, I was playing against 3 AIs, and I put up Motivating Broadcast one turn because I had a fight I wanted to use Propegators in. At the end of that turn, ALL THREE of the AIs hit my broadcast to disable it. And it went down. That was then what happened every single time I got the operation up.

Worse, when the AI gets access to energy theft, research theft, and cosmite theft, you better buckle up. They are going to clean you out completely. There were a few games I was hit with 2+ energy theft attempts PER TURN. That was WITH Secret State doctrine enacted, and performing sweeps constantly. No matter what, you are going to be under constant threat with the enemy factions perpetually throughout the game. You basically have to find a way to have supplemental energy sources, because you will constantly be hit with them.

Worse still, when the computer gets within vision of a city center, you are about to lose all of the buildings in that sector. I recall playing against 9 AIs, and they closed on a city with Level 3 defenses, turrets, and a hospital. They hit that city with so many bombs, that I don't believe I had a single building left. I was looking at the enemy army move, them Boom, bleep, crash, crunch, swoosh, like 10 operations went off at once, wiping out everything in the city down to the bottom. This was every time.

I think that this is a terrible way to play. Here is what I suggest:

1. Make it so that the computer has to be in your sector (maybe adjacent) to activate operations. No more global operations when they aren't even on the same side of the map with you. With Teams, you see what your allies see, so that only requires 1 cloaked unit to do the trick. That shouldn't be hard.

2. Make an option to TURN OPERATIONS OFF!!!!!!! Every time I play a number of AIs, things go here every time, period. It is really tiresome. This needs to have a toggle! Let us turn this damn thing off so that we don't rage-quit that our cities were turned to rubble because some scout somehow got 10 spaces from your city.

Seriously, please, change this system. I need some air with this nonsense.
 
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Ericridge

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I think the chances of success for the AI's operations is a tab bit suspucious too. But then again i'm generally only halfway through the espionage tech tree which means I don't have all the defense modifiers active yet but whenever i try to do a counter espionage in revenge it's always too low of a chance to succeed vs extreme AI. I don't know but its really boring when only the AI gets to have fun ruining my fun with espionage when i can't do anything back.

Only time my infiltrate command center ever works is when it's early game and then when they start doing internal purge then I never can get a spy back in there again.
 

Sandman25DCSSS

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That's the suggestion I support as it is not that hard to implement and will be used by me. Please provide an option to exclude operations from research tree.
 

Jolly Joker

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Are you really complaining about outrageous behavior of EXTREME AIs with HARDEST settings?

Because, in game difficulty you can set "AI PASSIVITY", the tooltip saying "AI Passivity affects, how AIs interact with the player, how often they send messages, how inclined they are to start a war and whether they can use covert ops."
You also don't have to play EXTREME AIs. Or you can set up SOME extreme AIs, SOME very hard and maybe a few dummies for fun.
 

Sandman25DCSSS

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Are you really complaining about outrageous behavior of EXTREME AIs with HARDEST settings?

Because, in game difficulty you can set "AI PASSIVITY", the tooltip saying "AI Passivity affects, how AIs interact with the player, how often they send messages, how inclined they are to start a war and whether they can use covert ops."
You also don't have to play EXTREME AIs. Or you can set up SOME extreme AIs, SOME very hard and maybe a few dummies for fun.
I play with 12 teams of extreme AI and I can't make AI passive (because of the sentence about unwilling to start wars), I want it be as aggressive as possible, but I don't enjoy covert operations no matter which side I am on. Current operations are broken, even extreme AI can do nothing to me when I use secret state doctrine and build that +defence building in my capital. And if the AI does not do the same, it cannot even remove command centre infiltration which I did early game, it literally says 0% chance of being removed. It means increasing of snowball effect, gap between me as winning player and the rest increases.

Edit. Oh, and that "amazing" Sharkan operation of -300 relations with every race which forces me convert all colonies into my starting race every time there is a shakarn player nearby.
 

Jolly Joker

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You don't need to make the AI "passive". You can make it "normal" as opposed to "aggressive". With "passive" it does nothing without overwhelming reason. With normal it does. My current game is against 6 extreme AIs with normal passivity, and they use covert ops and try to cancel operations. They also declare war (I suppose, depending on their traits). I suppose you could say it's all as it should be.
 

Melikat

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I believe one part of this is the "Intelligence Sharing" bonus that teams/allies have (I THINK that's the cause, anyway) which increases your Operational Offense/Defense by 3 per allied player. This means that when playing vs 11 AI, they start with 31/31 (vs your 1/1) and you are at a 30 offense/defense deficit (until you defeat some of them?) and should expect to never succeed with Covert ops, and rarely see the AI fail.

Also how strange! You used to be able to create 'clones' of AI Preset commanders (ie. If you chose 6R0XA for 11 different players it would give 2 through 11 a different randomized name with the same appearance and loadout. Now when I try to select the same commander for more than one AI, it replaces one with a random commander.
 
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SarahGabriella

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I believe one part of this is the "Intelligence Sharing" bonus that teams/allies have (I THINK that's the cause, anyway) which increases your Operational Offense/Defense by 3 per allied player. This means that when playing vs 11 AI, they start with 31/31 (vs your 1/1) and you are at a 30 offense/defense deficit (until you defeat some of them?) and should expect to never succeed with Covert ops, and rarely see the AI fail.

Also how strange! You used to be able to create 'clones' of AI Preset commanders (ie. If you chose 6R0XA for 11 different players it would give 2 through 11 a different randomized name with the same appearance and loadout. Now when I try to select the same commander for more than one AI, it replaces one with a random commander.
Well, commanders should be unique, so that sounds like its working as intended.
 

coodav

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I believe one part of this is the "Intelligence Sharing" bonus that teams/allies have (I THINK that's the cause, anyway) which increases your Operational Offense/Defense by 3 per allied player. This means that when playing vs 11 AI, they start with 31/31 (vs your 1/1) and you are at a 30 offense/defense deficit (until you defeat some of them?) and should expect to never succeed with Covert ops, and rarely see the AI fail.

Also how strange! You used to be able to create 'clones' of AI Preset commanders (ie. If you chose 6R0XA for 11 different players it would give 2 through 11 a different randomized name with the same appearance and loadout. Now when I try to select the same commander for more than one AI, it replaces one with a random commander.
This makes a ton of sense now. I was wondering why I constantly had to pour on the operation defense. No matter what I did, I was getting hit with operations all the time. Huh, I guess that does change things a bit.
 

SarahGabriella

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This makes a ton of sense now. I was wondering why I constantly had to pour on the operation defense. No matter what I did, I was getting hit with operations all the time. Huh, I guess that does change things a bit.
From what i understand you play on a very hard setting anyways, so its a huge challenge exactly what you want?
 

Kelben

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It is bothersome honestly. I tend to side with OP on that matter.
Keeping the purge action running at all time, i've yet to purge anything. Even with a little dozen of breaches.

All AI attacks are indeed supported by offensive operations. All cities defended with echo images, automatic destructive effect happening every 2 to 3 turns.

You cannot launch any sustained ops, they get cancelled the next turn you launch them. When trying to launch your own offense ops on the strategic map, it won't let you cause of low chances.

Overall a poor experience of that initially interesting mechanic.
 
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SarahGabriella

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It is bothersome honestly. I tend to side with OP on that matter.
Keeping the purge action running at all time, i've yet to purge anything. Even with a little dozen of breaches.

All AI attacks are indeed supported by offensive operations. All cities defended with echo images, automatic destructive effect happening every 2 to 3 turns.

You cannot launch any sustained ops, they get cancelled the next turn you launch them. When trying to launch your own offense ops on the strategic map, it won't let you cause of low chances.

Overall a poor experience of that initially interesting mechanic.
Its on a extremely high difficulty...if it was a more moderate one i would agree.
 

coodav

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From what i understand you play on a very hard setting anyways, so its a huge challenge exactly what you want?
Not this way. This is just one more piece of additional maintenance you have to manually resolve every other turn. There is WAAAAYYYY too much manual maintenance involved with this game as it is.
 

coodav

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It is bothersome honestly. I tend to side with OP on that matter.
Keeping the purge action running at all time, i've yet to purge anything. Even with a little dozen of breaches.

All AI attacks are indeed supported by offensive operations. All cities defended with echo images, automatic destructive effect happening every 2 to 3 turns.

You cannot launch any sustained ops, they get cancelled the next turn you launch them. When trying to launch your own offense ops on the strategic map, it won't let you cause of low chances.

Overall a poor experience of that initially interesting mechanic.
That said it in very good terms. This is spot on.
 

Kelben

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Its on a extremely high difficulty...if it was a more moderate one i would agree.
In moderate the AI is a push over. Frankly speaking, the difficulty is not well implemented. The AI receiving tons of influence spamming you with NPCs armies is again a poorly handled mechanic. While at the same time still not being able to conquer silver landmarks or developping sectors properly.

Maybe rename the difficulty setting "frustration" setting. :p
 
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MaitreBouh

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I believe one part of this is the "Intelligence Sharing" bonus that teams/allies have (I THINK that's the cause, anyway) which increases your Operational Offense/Defense by 3 per allied player. This means that when playing vs 11 AI, they start with 31/31 (vs your 1/1) and you are at a 30 offense/defense deficit (until you defeat some of them?) and should expect to never succeed with Covert ops, and rarely see the AI fail.

Also how strange! You used to be able to create 'clones' of AI Preset commanders (ie. If you chose 6R0XA for 11 different players it would give 2 through 11 a different randomized name with the same appearance and loadout. Now when I try to select the same commander for more than one AI, it replaces one with a random commander.
This is most probably the problem you face. I have no problem dealing with or using strategic operations even against hard AI. But I do not team them all up against me.

So in fact your specific situation is indeed a good one to disable operations if it troubles you so much.
 

SarahGabriella

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This is most probably the problem you face. I have no problem dealing with or using strategic operations even against hard AI. But I do not team them all up against me.

So in fact your specific situation is indeed a good one to disable operations if it troubles you so much.
Yep, i think it might even work as intended if the player chooses this kind of setup as a challenge.
 
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