AI-controlled nations and ahistorical potentials

alvaro

earl of whateverinster
41 Badges
Mar 20, 2001
4.252
2.131
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Victoria 2
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
Mowers said:
alvaro, i think this is a wonderful idea. Say 40 preset AI strategies that it randomlly selects every 30-50 years but avoiding those that are unplausible with a few basic checks - do i have a port? Do I have lots of ports? Is the a very large aggressive country next door with a large land force etc chuck in a random element youve a great game

well, thanks. I'm feeling inspired today, you know? :D
it could be very adapted to the new personality thing that P'dox wants to introduce in the game.
 

unmerged(9300)

Captain
May 13, 2002
418
1
Visit site
Duuk said:
And please people, the answer to EVERY SINGLE QUESTION is not, "I want that to be an option!".

I swear, just turning the game on would lead to 453 option toggles if Johan followed the advice of the forum. Each of which he'd need to code support for.

Not to every single question, but historicy VS non-historicy is probably the most metaphysical question of the game. There is no good or bad and it's only a matter of personal taste.
 

Ben Music

Innocent Bystander
57 Badges
Oct 5, 2000
195
80
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Cliffracer RIP said:
It's probably better to try and recreate the factors that explain why certain nations did what they did that rely overly on scripting outcomes, so the factors are linked up with eachother, in such a way but still allowing for those factors to be changed, either by the AI deciding on a different solution or on human player intervention.

Agreed. Why would Russia decide to take a colonial path? What made it make that decision? What changed internally in Russia made it act ahistorically? The Russia we now that would do that would be very different the the Russia we had historically. How did it get there?
 

unmerged(11600)

bring the game home!
Nov 8, 2002
5.788
1
Visit site
I really wouldn't mind if the AI behaves ahistorically, as long as it behaves like a moderately competent human might. Frex, in EU1 as Russia I'd face a bunch of Polish armies on my border as Poland DoW's me; I call on my Bohemian ally, and the Poland AI says 'Ooh, look, Silesia!' and marches all those armies halfway across Europe ignoring my conquest of their provinces.

-Pat
 

Matija

Death to fascism, freedom to the people!
50 Badges
Dec 25, 2002
1.139
0
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • 500k Club
  • Surviving Mars
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
I would like AI to be as historical as it was in EU2 :D
 

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
OHgamer said:
The question is how do you design an AI to act ahistorically to a players ahistorical behavior while remaining within relatively historical frameworks. Or does having the AI behaving within a historical framework make it much more difficult to react effectively to ahistorical behavior by players when it happens?
Well let us say I am Spain and i annex Portugal...so what basically i am being told is all those portugse lands are mine or the taking because everyone would act historicllly.... Sounds sweet to be me then. :D
 

Zagys

Doomsday Prophet
23 Badges
Mar 1, 2000
1.128
15
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pride of Nations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
The AI should act in it's own best interests. Given a realistic game model, this should most likely lead to historical results. As an example, Portugal should normally prefer to colonize Brazil rather than Africa; not because it is scripted to do so, but because it is easier and more profitable to do so.
 

DukeWilleo1630

Grand Poobah
71 Badges
Oct 26, 2003
2.256
540
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
Simply put, I would like to see a more dynamic event system rather than a choice between either historical or ahistorical AI.
-I would love to see the ability of any culture group forming a nation of their own. And you should be able to expand your core provinces through some sort of system.
In terms of the agressiveness of the ai. It should follow the historical path of that nation. Certain areas of land should be fought over more than other areas of europe. It would be cool if that could be done.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
46
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
It all hindges on the model. With any historical simulation corners will be cut and short cuts made. To be truly realistic as a monarch you would spend a lot of your time involved in mindless court rituals. To relax you get to go hunting with hawks or bows. The invention of fire arms will revolutionalise your life as you now get a chance to shoot the animals as well. However this does not a good game make, your average player craves a little bit more.

Corners will be cut the player will be able to get to do more than your average ruler/country ever could. To give an example as Spain you get use Cortez to conquer Mexico, in reality Cortez buggered off without any authority and before you knew it Spain ruled Mexico. These are the kind of neccesary abstractions you need to get a good game.

However if you can find the right balance between game play and historical restrictions then you get an easier job for any AI. A sensible set of historical restirctions on colonisation will lead to no need for the AI to be told where to colonise.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
46
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Just to expand on my previous point. Take Colonisation, what I would do is have a colonial range. You can only colonise X distance away from nearest holding. Have this distance linked to naval tech. If you can get this set up right, early in the game if you want to colonise India then you need a chain of colonies/trading posts round Africa to reach there (which is what Portugal in the end actually did). If you set these ranges up correctly it will give the Iberian powers a bit of a head start, and gradually the other powers will be able to get into the act. By the time a county Like Poland has the range to colonise, all the good provinces will be gone. However if Poland was to get an Atlantic coast line it will be able colonise sooner.
 

Sute]{h

Field Marshal
87 Badges
Jun 25, 2002
3.484
177
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
I would like the AI to behave historical... but not because we force it to do so. The historical path should simply be the most attractive to each country. Hence Spain will find itself colonizing south america because it has the money and the opputunities, and the rewards for doing so outweighs the cost and risk. Should some other country find itself in exact the same situation it would do the same, however it should be practically impossible for other countries to end up in the historical situation as Spain. This is controled by starting setup. Since every country starts in its own location and the gamemechanics reward historical responses, the AI will choose the historical route, thus leading to the country have yet another historical starting point, from which it will yet again take the historical choice. Of course this is clearly going to be very complicated and need severe testing, but it would be the ideal model. Mostly because when the player goes ahistorical the the rest of the world adjusts rather than just going along pretending nothing happened. Also since the historical route tends to be the most rewarding players might actually take it rather than going into random expansion mode.
 

unmerged(485)

Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
9.971
0
Sute]{h said:
I would like the AI to behave historical... but not because we force it to do so. The historical path should simply be the most attractive to each country. Hence Spain will find itself colonizing south america because it has the money and the opputunities, and the rewards for doing so outweighs the cost and risk. Should some other country find itself in exact the same situation it would do the same, however it should be practically impossible for other countries to end up in the historical situation as Spain.

...................................................

Almost any Atlantic seaboard country then would colonize South America - which is not what happend.

Not only that but monarchs of the day do not have the historical perspective we have today. Sure there were thoughts of great riches if India could be reached by sailing west but that was the limit of their knowledge. If everyone knows there is gobs of silver in South America then the England, Portugal and France as well as Spain would all get in on the action. Not what you want to see in an historicaly based game.



And some of them just outright did things which we would never consider doing in the game.
 

hildoceras

Fossile en devenir
7 Badges
May 16, 2002
7.447
27
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
in the event of an 'historical behaviour' for AI (term to be defined :rolleyes: ) or in the case of several randomly chosen behaviours for AI, could (should) it be moddable ? ...
 

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
Its all partly based on what each country was looking for at the time and changes to that could have rippling effects. Plus later onthere were other dynamics and wars that affected what areas were more useful, what lands one owned, etc.

But even say Columbus went off course and ran into Brazil, that would be enough to change things.
 

joriandrake

Impossible? A Challenge!
64 Badges
Feb 19, 2006
2.135
88
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
Thanak said:
Not to every single question, but historicy VS non-historicy is probably the most metaphysical question of the game. There is no good or bad and it's only a matter of personal taste.
Thats why I want a 'button' to choose player if he/she wants ahistoric events or fully historical events in her/his own game (by all the new games/starts). ;)