AI and Single Player

[Napoqe]

Hello everyone.

I'm here to report the latest sensations playing in single player mode. And also suggest some features, although some may have already been suggested.

My complaints to begin with:

The AI in this game seems to be getting worse and worse. She declares suicide wars as my last game. That Italy declared war on Yugoslavia, with the Soviet Union, France, Romania and Czechoslovakia guaranteed to Yugoslavia. And Italy was alone.

Another complaint, is war against several powerful factions. Except for the historical part, that Axis faced the Allies and Comintern. Although the Nazi leaders they were on drug effects. It was obvious that these wars would stand a chance of much more losing than winning.
AI must at most avoid wars against two powerful factions.

About AI joining factions:
Examples: Yugoslavia far more powerful than Hungary, winning the war. Suddenly, Hungary joins the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere faction then Japan as the enemy, although Japan only has to lose by doing so.

Another story is Greece at war with Bulgaria and the Soviet Union. Then join the Allied faction just because it is democratic. Thus, the United Kingdom helps Greece, however, as it was already at war with Axis, now it has another great enemy the Soviet Union.
Greece was not at war with Axis before the United Kingdom's aid.

Guarantees and Peace Conference

Both systems need rework, mainly Peace Conference. That seems the winners are enemy at each other at the Conference. Making senseless borders, disrupting allies, etc.
What I suggest is informal agreements before using points. As an example: As France wants to annex the whole British island, but it has Italy with points next to France. So you explain there that you want to prefer there. So instead of Italia spending points there, spends it elsewhere, thus not harming faction allies. At least, that AI has a decision or national focus claiming.


The guarantees harm a lot of the goals of minor nations, although it makes sense. I suggest that when there is a great war, the nation has an event to revoke the guarantees not to be harmed in the war.
So would facilitate to play with minor nations. Another alternative would be war-limited.

 

[Shireknight]

The thing I find worse about the AI is that it has one simple tactic and that is to just throw everything it has at the enemies front line until it exhausts it's equipment and manpower. Playing as Germany if you invade Russia and they counterattack and start pushing you back all you have to do is hold your ground and wait, the Russian divisions will then just launch attack after pointless attack against your dug in divisions until they have run out of equipment and manpower and then you can just roll over the top of them along the whole front and the war is won.

What should happen is once the AI finds it's attacks are pointless it should just dig in like the player has and then leave it to the player to work out a way to move forwards, maybe by creating a strike force and targetting a specific point in the frontline in which to make a spearhead attack and possibly a breakthrough.

That one simple change would make attacks much more satisfying and the game itself a much more strategic experience, even better if the AI could learn to use those tactics itself, that would be incredible.

 

[Napoqe]

This reminded me of a match like China, which made the great world power with its very high manpower. Axis and Japan was war against China, I made their manpower end a war that lasted more than 20 years.

Something strange between the Soviet Union and Germany is that Germany's AI was more divisions than the Soviet Union. Although the Soviet Union starts more divisions and has more population.

And in the peace conferences that your ally (AI) takes the territory you want. Then you will have to go to war against this country that has taken territory.
Depending like minor, this would ruin your match.

 

[Kazakk]

The thing I find worse about the AI is that it has one simple tactic and that is to just throw everything it has at the enemies front line until it exhausts it's equipment and manpower. Playing as Germany if you invade Russia and they counterattack and start pushing you back all you have to do is hold your ground and wait, the Russian divisions will then just launch attack after pointless attack against your dug in divisions until they have run out of equipment and manpower and then you can just roll over the top of them along the whole front and the war is won.

What should happen is once the AI finds it's attacks are pointless it should just dig in like the player has and then leave it to the player to work out a way to move forwards, maybe by creating a strike force and targetting a specific point in the frontline in which to make a spearhead attack and possibly a breakthrough.

That one simple change would make attacks much more satisfying and the game itself a much more strategic experience, even better if the AI could learn to use those tactics itself, that would be incredible.

I hope that within the next few years, AI based games will actually have a proper, easy to implement, real AI. Like what is happening with google's DeepMind in Starcraft 2. SC2 is the most complex RTS game in existence, with a large base of extremely competitive players. Yet, this AI is capable of standing besides professional players, much above the level of an average player would be able to reach in his lifetime.
I wish the AI in hoi4 would use diverse and effective strategies. That it's economic buildup would be proper. I would love to see the AI holding it's line with weaker, but proper divisions, whilst trying to achieve a breakthrough with it's elite divisions somewhere else in the front, trying to encircle the player. And using a special team, and mobile if possible, to prevent breakthroughs from the player. But that's thinking too far ahead, the AI can't even hold it's line without attacking their divisions to depletion.

What I can say for almost sure is, in a decade from now, if HOI is still a thing, it should be much greater than what it is now. Ooooh, I hope someday we can have a HOI without provinces and tiles, and units moving in real time-ish.

 

[KubiG37]

The thing I find worse about the AI is that it has one simple tactic and that is to just throw everything it has at the enemies front line until it exhausts it's equipment and manpower. Playing as Germany if you invade Russia and they counterattack and start pushing you back all you have to do is hold your ground and wait, the Russian divisions will then just launch attack after pointless attack against your dug in divisions until they have run out of equipment and manpower and then you can just roll over the top of them along the whole front and the war is won.

What should happen is once the AI finds it's attacks are pointless it should just dig in like the player has and then leave it to the player to work out a way to move forwards, maybe by creating a strike force and targetting a specific point in the frontline in which to make a spearhead attack and possibly a breakthrough.

That one simple change would make attacks much more satisfying and the game itself a much more strategic experience, even better if the AI could learn to use those tactics itself, that would be incredible.

The devs specifically said that's not what they want - a game where two similar strength armies just stare at each other. So they prefer the suicide attacks, maybe because Ai can't really launch any concentrated offensives , use tanks as spearheads or cutoff units with fast motorized troops.

 

[KubiG37]

On the topic though: I agree with almost everything, the way nations automatically join factions and call everyone into war is really dumb at times. So is the artificial dumbness that decides it is a good idea to declare war on a faction 10 times their size and without any allies of its own.

Especially the cases like the Greece you describe. It happens way too often when playing Soviet Union, that some capitulated minor just declares war on your faction and calls all the allies in, despite the fact until then you were cooperating to defeat the Axis for example.

 

[Napoqe]

Your allies from another faction can turn be your enemies, before your common enemy is defeated.
This in many situations is ridiculous. It prolongs the war with old enemy, and it can turn the tide of war. AI diplomacy needs better.

Supply line is another question. But I will not to discuss, because here in the forum it is already much commented.

It's a weird thing to use guarantees of democratic countries to get them into war with another faction that you want to happen.
Example: As the Soviet Union increases world tension to more than 25% and justifies war against Austria, then cancel. So Germany AI ends the focus of annexing Austria, but Austria refuses and so Germany declares war on that country, and the countries that guaranteed will go to war against Germany.

 

[Vlad123]

I hope that within the next few years, AI based games will actually have a proper, easy to implement, real AI. Like what is happening with google's DeepMind in Starcraft 2. SC2 is the most complex RTS game in existence, with a large base of extremely competitive players. Yet, this AI is capable of standing besides professional players, much above the level of an average player would be able to reach in his lifetime.
I wish the AI in hoi4 would use diverse and effective strategies. That it's economic buildup would be proper. I would love to see the AI holding it's line with weaker, but proper divisions, whilst trying to achieve a breakthrough with it's elite divisions somewhere else in the front, trying to encircle the player. And using a special team, and mobile if possible, to prevent breakthroughs from the player. But that's thinking too far ahead, the AI can't even hold it's line without attacking their divisions to depletion.

What I can say for almost sure is, in a decade from now, if HOI is still a thing, it should be much greater than what it is now. Ooooh, I hope someday we can have a HOI without provinces and tiles, and units moving in real time-ish.

In an Italian browser game, this thing was done, too bad that between "community toxic to the core that does not want to spend a penny" and "a second manager as stupid as the AI of Hoi4" the project has failed. But it could have been a big game ... there was a wide range of troops, you were actually moving on a real map ...

 

[CrasherZZ]

The AI in this game seems to be getting worse and worse. She declares suicide wars as my last game. That Italy declared war on Yugoslavia, with the Soviet Union, France, Romania and Czechoslovakia guaranteed to Yugoslavia. And Italy was alone.

Another complaint, is war against several powerful factions. Except for the historical part, that Axis faced the Allies and Comintern. Although the Nazi leaders they were on drug effects. It was obvious that these wars would stand a chance of much more losing than winning.
AI must at most avoid wars against two powerful factions.

About AI joining factions:
Examples: Yugoslavia far more powerful than Hungary, winning the war. Suddenly, Hungary joins the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere faction then Japan as the enemy, although Japan only has to lose by doing so.

This sounds like the non-historic mode. That's why I only play historic mode now, unless I'm in the mood to see lots of crazy shit happening and I don't care about the outcome

 

[Synicus]

I play Japan and spend at least two years at war alone vs Russia, Take half the territory or more before Germany comes along, easily finishes the war due too the Soviet army size engaged in the east. Not only does Germany end up with the lion share, they also create a single state puppet named Russia where my collaboration gov ends up.
I get a col gov in a German puppet and a large revolting waist land for over 70% of effort.

tip: Never end a peace con early just for smooth boarders. better to have rough edges to deal with later than allow AI wrenches.

I agree the absolute worst is is minor vs minor, AI minor has no guaranties nor apparent friends and joins faction so your minor is now fighting an entire faction with 2 or more majors in it. At times it seems the AI would think the world better off with out the player, lol.

Suicide by focus tree is bad too. Is AI bent on completing the tree even if it means going to war it's bound to loose?

One good thing I noticed was with Romania choosing not to get involved in war on guaranteed vs guaranteed.

Bulgaria once joined a Balk entity faction after I declared war and all the balk faction members had a negative opinion of Bulgaria.

Germany puppets Bulgaria when they favor annex, now Turkey about to loose to Axis as Bulgaria declares war via focus.

I think part of the problem is that the only things defining AI ideologies are the focus trees and ideology rules. Outside that, they are all suicidal war mongers in need of some AI national pride and foresight.

Perhaps factions need more rules, like having puppets that can't declare there own wars, but they need to make sense.
A minor joining a faction due to being attacked by an enemy faction is realistic to a point. (enemy of my enemy is my friend, but my enemy of my other enemy is NOT my friend). A minor joining a faction due to attack from a minor, kind of makes sense, but is cowardly and the Faction should be ashamed to engage pending on ideology and should also consider who they liked more and their ideology before eagerly accepting or applying to help.

I notice a bonus to join a faction is to BE at war. (why not at war with enemy rather blanket war?) this is one of the ways how things get crazy.

Every time I attack a country, I'm terrified they will join a major faction. I try to avoid faction war at all cost with the exceptions of what may seem to not turn into a forever war or my effort turn into a face slap at peace talks. Being in a Faction is often a bad experience for me and I end up doing my own thing, refusing to help or be helped just to keep the territory I fight for. What happens next is, minor country in the faction I'm focused on calls in minor country from the faction I'm trying to avoid fighting.

Edited to add: The AI has the advantage of near instant research on who will and won't accept not much point in that point but brought me to thinking about time being a factor to help solve some of the crisis. If not through a focus, applying a 'time of consideration' to be accepted by a faction leader. This way the player has a small chance to conquer a tiny nation the faction doesn't care about in the first place before allowing them to join. Should also be so if the Faction is at war and considering a non combatant to join.

Edit again: above edit is to apply to a nation at war with a nation not at war with the Faction.