AI and forming the HRE

[Ecnahc]

I've never had a game in 867 where the Holy Roman Empire actually forms. I've played dozens of games as the Byzantines for a century or two, and not once have I seen it formed. I think it should be tweaked in some way that they ai is actually able to form it at some point. I thought for awhile it was just me, but after so many games using various updates of HIP since the first version it almost think it is impossible. In my opinion the HRE should typically form by the 10th century, unless the player is actively trying to make it not happen. I usually play as the Byzantines, and I never mess with Western Europe at the start. Sometimes I even use the console to give one of the Karlings a bunch of money and have them declare war on whatever they need to form it. Still, nothing has worked. For this entire year, even before the mods were put together into HIP, I have not once seen the HRE form. Can anyone tell me if this is common?

 

[JonStryker]

The only reliable way to get the HRE is to plot to kill the Lotharingian and Italian kings. If you don't do that they'll splinter up more and more as the Karlings will create most of those de jure kingdoms. I love SWMH but don't particularly like that aspect of it :/

 

[Ecnahc]

I understand that the best point to start at is 1066 after William takes England, because I've read time and again that is the most balanced bookmark. I really wish HIP gave another look at 867 because many people like starting there. I know it can get crazy and I shouldn't expect it to look like the 1066 start at all after a couple hundred years, but the way things happen right after starting in 867 really bug me. Another example is Bulgaria beating the Magyars, stopping them from pretty much ever forming Hungary. I know it should happen sometimes, but when I as the Byzantines attack Bulgaria while they are defending themselves from Magyars I just don't see how they could beat them! I'm all for interesting changes over the course of the game. However, the formation of the HRE and Hungary should be set in stone most of the time IMO.

 

[JonStryker]

Hungary set in stone? Why? For me it is rather ahistorical that they settle in Pannonia by 868 in every. single. game.
In real history they did that 30 years later. And they most likely took (eastern) Pannonia because the Bulgarians and Pechenegs overpowered them.
Regarding the HRE? I am not sure what would've happened if Otto wasn't such a capable ruler and invaded Italy for his wife's claim.

 

[MFCamillus]

I will say that I almost always play from 867 and Hungary forms a majority of the time. Maybe not always as large and not every time but usually.

As for the HRE...I have seen it happen. Partly it depends on the Karlings, but I would agree with JonStryker - if Otto I and his advisors were not as good as they were it might not have formed anyway. And even then it took a bit of pushing and repeated campaigns. Frankly, many times when I look at the 10th century situation I spend a bit of time reviewing how that did happen as it is not necessarily the most logical outcome. 1 battle here, a less corrupt pope there, and it might not have happened.

 

[Ecnahc]

I just think the HRE is a pretty big part of history, and if anything it should be more likely to form. I think player interaction should be needed to stop it from forming, instead of trying to get it to form.

 

[zijistark]

I've never had a game in 867 where the Holy Roman Empire actually forms. I've played dozens of games as the Byzantines for a century or two, and not once have I seen it formed. I think it should be tweaked in some way that they ai is actually able to form it at some point. I thought for awhile it was just me, but after so many games using various updates of HIP since the first version it almost think it is impossible. In my opinion the HRE should typically form by the 10th century, unless the player is actively trying to make it not happen. I usually play as the Byzantines, and I never mess with Western Europe at the start. Sometimes I even use the console to give one of the Karlings a bunch of money and have them declare war on whatever they need to form it. Still, nothing has worked. For this entire year, even before the mods were put together into HIP, I have not once seen the HRE form. Can anyone tell me if this is common?

This is kind of weird for me to hear. It's probably just that I rarely, rarely play the 867 start, but it seems common that when I do, the HRE manages to form ridiculously fast (or not at all-- perhaps the dichotomy is intentional). Random number generators...

Here's the thing, though: why don't you play in Western Europe and try to form the HRE? If you can do so, contrast that with what you see the AI do instead in your games, and perhaps we can take something home from that.

I will say that influence over the AI and war targets is very, very difficult and something which we can hardly control (under plausible, non-forced sandbox gaming circumstances), though. As others have said, it's kind of surprising that the HRE did happen. We aim for accurate starts and plausible playthrough. If the HRE actually is a long shot for various reasons which are not plausible to control, then I suppose that may just be a fact of life. However, given that I've seen it happen more than once, there's probably something that could be done to affect the likelihood.

 

[Ecnahc]

In my most recent game, I finally saw it form! Through France even. I don't know much of the history behind its formation, so it may truly have been unlikely to have formed at all. Even if it is formed, Western Europe is a mess for awhile. Perhaps that is how it should be. I will try to look at it more, and come back with actual, useful, information.

 

[zijistark]

In my most recent game, I finally saw it form! Through France even. I don't know much of the history behind its formation, so it may truly have been unlikely to have formed at all. Even if it is formed, Western Europe is a mess for awhile. Perhaps that is how it should be. I will try to look at it more, and come back with actual, useful, information.

Yeah, it does take a long time for the formed-HRE to eventually stabilize and take-over its de jure territory. It's spaghetti until then. That part's pretty much unavoidable ( unless banning war for Karling vassals is allowed ).

When playing a game as Asturias awhile back, I was disappointed by how fast the HRE formed (I don't like the big blob, and I was hoping to accomplish superhuman feats to prevent it) and how spaghetti and implausible its territory was for an empire. Internally within HIP's group chat, I was [loosely] advocating making the restrictions upon formation of the HRE harder as a result (mainly to do contingent territory checks so that the player/AI actually has to control something that vaguely looks like an HRE in order to form it rather than the current decision's abstract restrictions). Heh.

 

[Ecnahc]

Maybe you should need the Pope to have a high opinion of you, and actually have to crown the HRE?

 

[Aurimas]

If you want to see HRE forming more often, try to change succession laws from gavelkind to primogeniture in all Karlings' kingdoms before starting new game.