AI allies allying your rivals and break your alliance

[Siu-King**]

Seriously. what. the. fuck. man.

Your existing AI ally decided to go ahead to ally someone you rivaled & both were at war not long ago, then suddenly your existing alliance gets a -50 modifier and they decided to break YOUR alliance instead of the one they just made.

tell me again that this is not targeting the player.

Edit: in this case, France, rivaled Castile, wanted Aragon (PU) lands, fought at least 2 times with them, and once Aragon broke free, which I rivaled, France turned friendly one day (despite a trust malus too) and proceed to ally them?

 

[Zelius]

I don't know what to tell you, I do this all the time against the AI. The malus for being allied to rival isn't impossible to overcome...

 

[Siu-King**]

I don't know what to tell you, I do this all the time against the AI. The malus for being allied to rival isn't impossible to overcome...

I play on Hard so there is an additional -20.

But the logic is rather why they would ally someone you hate in the first place

 

[LeSingeAffame]

Check their provinces of interest and their trust towards you
If you kept the trust at 50, while getting provinces they would want, then they'll backstab you - just like you'd backstab an AI if it has lands you'd want

 

[Siu-King**]

Check their provinces of interest and their trust towards you
If you kept the trust at 50, while getting provinces they would want, then they'll backstab you - just like you'd backstab an AI if it has lands you'd want

Nope. More like I'm Granada and France is my ally.

Then they suddenly decided to ally Aragon which is my rival, while they only fought against each other 1 year ago when France dow on England

 

[atwix]

60 trust with your ally prevents them from breaking Alliance after you or them rivalled one of your/their allies.

 

[Metroidkirby]

I got this in my last run. Was playing Tabarestan > Persia, Yarkand was a good ally (easy war against Ming for Yarkand tribute, hoping for Ming to loose mandate, they still stay at 100% afterward but whatever).
I was a rival to the ottomans, and Yarkand allied them, despite us having 100 trust to each others. i'm sure it's because of the Ottoman-Ming rivalry, but I still have to crush my faithfull ex-allies because of it's poor diplomatic decision.

On the other hand, it's not targeting the player, AI is always doing this between himself.

 

[Siu-King**]

60 trust with your ally prevents them from breaking Alliance after you or them rivalled one of your/their allies.

thought it was 80

 

[CplKatie]

If you want a longtime ally, spend favors on trust. This locks them in really well.

 

[Tom D.]

I do wonder what the rule would be without favours, maybe there isn't even one and the alliance breaks no matter what.

 

[Dominion]

I play on Hard so there is an additional -20.

But the logic is rather why they would ally someone you hate in the first place

Because they like them enough to overcome your hatred for them. You can do it too. It's not fun when it happens to you, but this is WAD.

If you want a longtime ally, spend favors on trust. This locks them in really well.

"Wants your provinces: -200"

I do wonder what the rule would be without favours, maybe there isn't even one and the alliance breaks no matter what.

Favors don't matter, trust does. And they always kick the nation that's below negative 50.

If they can ally your rival that means your rival has managed to overcome all negative modifiers and is sitting at at least +1.
If you're still allied to them before that it means you have at least -49.

Trust adds positive modifiers. Too few in my opinion, but it's giving positive reasons to keep the alliance.

What I'm saying is: The fact that them allying your rival broke the alliance means you were already sitting at 0 reasons to ally you or fewer.
Slightly annoying that you aren't able to see if you're in trouble ("Warning: You're below 1 positive reasons to stay allied to x" or something) so it's a tad difficult to prevent it from happening.
But after a while you get a pretty good feeling for the stability of your alliance.

I'm just saying you get a feeling for it, not that it's a desirable situation. Obscuring information and forcing players to "feel" how a mechanic works is a bad way to go about things.

It's still WAD though and has counterplay. There are worse sinners in the game in my book. This one you can avoid at least.

 

[Tom D.]

Favors don't matter, trust does.

Woops, my fault, I meant favours as you say. You're right on that, it is indeed avoidable. I remember that there is also a text when you hover over something in the diplo screen of your ally that says: "X trusts you implicitly" if you have them as an ally for long enough which is a good indicator for how strong your alliance is. I found it very useful if you don't have CS.

 

[Dominion]

Isn't that just the tooltip for how much trust you have? If it is, it's not a very good indicator.

I wrote a thread about it a few months ago, but that was only about vassalization. 1 reason for 5 trust above 50.
With alliances it's better. 1 for 1.
Still means you "only" get +50 reasons.
Allying a single rival of yours negates that fully. That's not trusting someone implicitly in my book.

I'm glad I found out how effective pirating is because I used to have a ton of worthless ships sitting around just to get the "strength of navy" bonus on top of the army bonus to really make sure they never break my alliance.
Nowadays I got a full FL of light ships swimming around and always have a ton of positive reasons added to my alliances in extension.

Dunno, it kinda works. I wouldn't tweak values actually. People just need to be aware that 100 trust can be negated rather easily by players and if they don't keep up other modifiers (or play on higher difficulties) it can be negated by AI nations as well.

 

[Tom D.]

Isn't that just the tooltip for how much trust you have? If it is, it's not a very good indicator.

I don't think so because that tooltip is there even when you don't have CS. If it would be, it would mean it calculates like trust is there while it isn't in reality (because you don't own CS). But that would be kinda weird, as no DLC feature is ever in the game when you don't have the DLC. But I definitely get the point you're making.

 

[atwix]

thought it was 80

that is the treshold to prevent allies from rivalling you out of the blue

different thing

 

[Siu-King**]

that is the treshold to prevent allies from rivalling you out of the blue

different thing

Well fuck that. France rivaled me as an ally XD

Trust dont come fast enough to prevent shit like this to happen. aka. I expanded 1000 dev in the first 100 years

 

[CplKatie]

Because they like them enough to overcome your hatred for them. You can do it too. It's not fun when it happens to you, but this is WAD.



"Wants your provinces: -200"



Favors don't matter, trust does. And they always kick the nation that's below negative 50.

If they can ally your rival that means your rival has managed to overcome all negative modifiers and is sitting at at least +1.
If you're still allied to them before that it means you have at least -49.

Trust adds positive modifiers. Too few in my opinion, but it's giving positive reasons to keep the alliance.

What I'm saying is: The fact that them allying your rival broke the alliance means you were already sitting at 0 reasons to ally you or fewer.
Slightly annoying that you aren't able to see if you're in trouble ("Warning: You're below 1 positive reasons to stay allied to x" or something) so it's a tad difficult to prevent it from happening.
But after a while you get a pretty good feeling for the stability of your alliance.

I'm just saying you get a feeling for it, not that it's a desirable situation. Obscuring information and forcing players to "feel" how a mechanic works is a bad way to go about things.

It's still WAD though and has counterplay. There are worse sinners in the game in my book. This one you can avoid at least.

They will drop that province as a want if you have high trust with them. its not a solution to the problem, its a way to prevent it from ever happening. If you plan on keeping an ally for a very long time cultivate it with trust so it never turns on you when its repicking rivals or expanding.

 

[Dominion]

They will drop that province as a want if you have high trust with them. its not a solution to the problem, its a way to prevent it from ever happening. If you plan on keeping an ally for a very long time cultivate it with trust so it never turns on you when its repicking rivals or expanding.

That doesn't work correctly. Wants your provinces can kick in despite high trust.

Wants your subject's provinces, for example, can hit you extremely often even with 100 trust.

 

[Dewra]

That doesn't work correctly. Wants your provinces can kick in despite high trust.

It's working correctly. The threshold is 80 trust and it has never worked on subjects provinces.
However at 80 trust AI will not go hostile towards you even with "-200 wants your subjects provinces".
Had a Russia ally go hostile at 77 trust with wants your provinces increase trust to 82, even with the modifiers and they are ally again (increased relations to +10 also).

Solution to the "wants your subject provinces" is to have a border snake with your ally and never have your subjects border them.
Now with CNs this might not work, I usually play in RotW so colonisers are always hostile to me.

Regarding OP it's annoying but the only thing that should be fixed is the obscurity of your alliance, this info should be shown somewhere.

 

[Dominion]

The AI doesn't need to go hostile towards you. They drop below 0 opinion and auto-break the alliance.