Ahistorical Swedish & Castilian Cores

[Clownie]

I might agree in theory. In practice, this is just a call for a minor nerf to CAS.

And while CAS might not need the cores, does it really need a nerf?

The cores serve their intended purpose - to encourage CAS to take territories in their historical area of interest. The cries of "railroading" get a bit shrill and knee-jerk, sometimes.

It ain't broke, so don't "fix" it. Far more likely that the "fix" would break something.

From a Doylist perspective, that's fine. But die-hard Doylism doesn't really work in a game that is about history. The apparent fact of the matter is that these cores are ahistorical representations of what was going on at the time.

If you want to be a die-hard Doylist, riddle me this: did Manchu or Muscovy or Aceh need a nerf? Did Taungu need a buff?

...Did the Ottoman dynasty need to be renamed from Osmanli to Osmanoglu?

 

[zodium]

I might agree in theory. In practice, this is just a call for a minor nerf to CAS.

And while CAS might not need the cores, does it really need a nerf?

The cores serve their intended purpose - to encourage CAS to take territories in their historical area of interest. The cries of "railroading" get a bit shrill and knee-jerk, sometimes.

It ain't broke, so don't "fix" it. Far more likely that the "fix" would break something.

Like I said (which you cut out for some reason), I think it introduces a legitimately interesting gameplay decision for Castile. What do you want? Here it is again:

Come to think of it, this would actually make a Castilian player choose between expending valuable ADM on the Reconquista, or on beelining for colonies. Given their terrible ruler/heir combo, this is not that straight forward.

 

[RobRoy3]

The apparent fact of the matter is that these cores are ahistorical representations of what was going on at the time.

The fact of the matter is that one kludgy game mechanic is perceived as a better mechanism to achieve a more historical representation than another kludgy game mechanic.

Like I said (which you cut out for some reason), I think it introduces a legitimately interesting gameplay decision for Castile. What do you want? Here it is again:

I wasn't aware you felt a strong need to see your entire post repeated. I didn't think it was necessary, but I'll try to keep that in mind.

Not ignoring it, just disagreeing with it. In general, I disagree with the assertion that it would be a good thing to give CAS a nerf, however slight. Specifically, I disagree that it would be a good thing to give CAS an incentive to beeline for the colonies.

 

[Osman Pasha]

Granada should have cores all over andalusian region imo.

 

[DevastatingTech]

Granada should have cores all over andalusian region imo.

+1

 

[PiriReis]

It could certainly be better handled in the case of Castille, at least. Nonetheless, Granada should have no core outside itself.

Granada could have a core on Ceuta (Sebtah for the Granadans), they conquered that territory in 1384 and held it for a couple of years. The same way how BYZ has cores on Sugla and Sinop.

 

[zodium]

Granada should indeed have cores on all Andalusian lands, since they are the primary culture of Andalusian. I just think it's internally inconsistent, but I doubt it'll really make a large gameplay difference either way beyond giving Granadan players a little more breathing room than 1448(9?).

 

[PiriReis]

IMHO Granada should have claims on the Castilian owned Andalusian cultured provinces (never owned by Granada directly but by other Islamic kingdoms) and a core on Ceuta (as this one was actually conquered and owned before) as mentioned before.

 

[zodium]

IMHO Granada should have claims on the Castilian owned Andalusian cultured provinces (never owned by Granada directly but by other Islamic kingdoms) and a core on Ceuta (as this one was actually conquered and owned before) as mentioned before.

That makes sense, I mostly just want core decay to work organically pre-game. (My historical knowledge amounts to the information that can be extracted from 'iberia map in 1300' on Google.)

 

[deezee]

It could certainly be better handled in the case of Castille, at least. Nonetheless, Granada should have no core outside itself, as Granada is not the Ummayad Caliphate or any remnant of it, but the last remaining taifa kingdom, so it had never owned the rest of Al-Andalus. Wich doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to have a decision acquiring cores in it once it owns the land, and forming Al-Andalus proper.

This is definitely true. However, Granada should get missions to reconquer other parts of Iberia, giving cores or claims at least. Its the way that most of these pressures to expand in a certain direction work. Although it likely won't matter since Granada would not succeed anyways, it makes things that little bit more interesting.

 

[TomosCaerllion]

I think it's a good way of causing historical conflicts that the game would otherwise not create. Castile, through the legacy of Asturias and the Visigoths, claim to be the successors to the pre-Islamic Kingdom and so, in their mind, Granda rightfully belongs to them.

And with Denmark starting off with PUs it is less historical a start but causes more historical outcomes if the Swedish-Danish rivalry can be caused through competing territorial ambitions.

It could be cool if Granada had more cores on neighbouring Christian provinces, or if they had a decision to form Andalusia and gain cores over all of Iberia.

 

[birincikalite]

I think it's a good way of causing historical conflicts that the game would otherwise not create. Castile, through the legacy of Asturias and the Visigoths, claim to be the successors to the pre-Islamic Kingdom and so, in their mind, Granda rightfully belongs to them.

And with Denmark starting off with PUs it is less historical a start but causes more historical outcomes if the Swedish-Danish rivalry can be caused through competing territorial ambitions.

It could be cool if Granada had more cores on neighbouring Christian provinces, or if they had a decision to form Andalusia and gain cores over all of Iberia.

Well HRE thinks it's the successor of Rome too, but I don't think they should get cores on half of the world

 

[Rubidium]

That makes sense, I mostly just want core decay to work organically pre-game. (My historical knowledge amounts to the information that can be extracted from 'iberia map in 1300' on Google.)

I would be happy giving them missions to retake Andalusia (and later the rest of Spain) a la the various Ottoman/Byzantine/etc. "Conquer X Region" missions, that only fire when Granada is strong enough and grant claims on that region. I would also be fine with a decision to form Andalusia.

Giving them cores is non-sensical; the rulers of Granada were essentially local governors in Granada who agreed to help the Spanish conquer the rest of Andalucia in return for being left alone to found their own state. They never ruled any of that land, and had no connection to it. Besides, the land had been Spanish for ~200 years by that point.

 

[Rainbow Mirage]

I think it's a good way of causing historical conflicts that the game would otherwise not create. Castile, through the legacy of Asturias and the Visigoths, claim to be the successors to the pre-Islamic Kingdom and so, in their mind, Granda rightfully belongs to them.

And with Denmark starting off with PUs it is less historical a start but causes more historical outcomes if the Swedish-Danish rivalry can be caused through competing territorial ambitions.

It could be cool if Granada had more cores on neighbouring Christian provinces, or if they had a decision to form Andalusia and gain cores over all of Iberia.

If we are talking historical accuracy; Denmark should get colony missions/claims(if another nation colonized there first) on the West Indies.

 

[SacredDatura]

+1 Change it to claims.

Problem is claims expire too soon. Without specific missions to guide them Castille might take a couple of Granadan provinces then do nothing about the rest for two centuries. Giving Castille cores on Granada seems like a lesser evil.

 

[AurochsAway]

Problem is claims expire too soon. Without specific missions to guide them Castille might take a couple of Granadan provinces then do nothing about the rest for two centuries. Giving Castille cores on Granada seems like a lesser evil.

Castile already has specific missions for this.

 

[PiriReis]

Well HRE thinks it's the successor of Rome too, but I don't think they should get cores on half of the world

You could give the Norwegians cores on Greenland and Newfoundland too

 

[Ex Mudder]

Lets not forget the English cores on Gibraltar and Malta!