Ahistorical problems with Byzantine Viceroyalties

[Don_giorgio]

Being a player who enjoys playing as a Byzantine char there is something that annoys me in Viceroyalties.

When a Strategos dies the Emperor tends to grant the Viceroyalty to his underage male kid or a female (his daughter/niece/cousin etc.) something which is slightly ahistorical.

In a time where a Strategos was expected to defend his Theme from invasions or raid the Arab/Bulgarian/whatever foreign realm it would make more sense if the new Strategos was an adult male.

Maybe we could fix that by making a certain "line of succession" for Byzantine Viceroyalties. For instance when a Strategos dies AI could follow this pattern when naming the new Strategos:

1. Adult male offspring of the deceased Strategos (common in Byzantine times. Usually adult male offsprings of the late Strategos "inherited" their father's position unofficially or were given new commands.

2. The deceased Strategos has no male offspring or is childless or has underage male offspring. Then the title goes to the most powerful adult Count vassal of the late Strategos (of course females and underage males would inherit their father's county)

3. The deceased Strategos has no male offspring, is childless or has underage male offspring and no vassals. Then the Emperor would be free to grant the Viceroyalty to any adult male who is his direct vassal. Again underage males and females would inherit all other County tier titles of their father.

Of course for options 2 and 3 and assuming that the deceased Strategos has an underage male vassal who comes of age eventually we can add a decision which will be activated when he turns 16 to petition the Emperor for a Strategos title (maybe his father's title or some other title).

And plz make it easier to revoke Viceroyalties. The office of Strategos during Byzantine times was granted and revoked numerous times dependant on the abilities of the holder. If for instance the Strategos of Koloneia fails to defend his lands from an invasion or he invades a foreign territory and fails then the Emperor would have just reason to revoke his Viceroyalty freely and granted it to someone else who might be more capable. Of course proud, ambitious, wroth characters could refuse revoke and rebel. But free revoking and regranting of the office of Strategos and rebellions because the Emperor wanted to strip someone from office were something that happened a lot in Byzantine times.

However having women and children as Strategos is something that happened extremely rarely if ever.

What do you think?

 

[aono]

And plz make it easier to revoke Viceroyalties. The office of Strategos during Byzantine times was granted and revoked numerous times dependant on the abilities of the holder. If for instance the Strategos of Koloneia fails to defend his lands from an invasion or he invades a foreign territory and fails then the Emperor would have just reason to revoke his Viceroyalty freely and granted it to someone else who might be more capable. Of course proud, ambitious, wroth characters could refuse revoke and rebel.

Just in case: you object lack of mechanics or how AI uses it?

 

[Don_giorgio]

What do u mean? In my games when i try to revoke the office from an incompetent Strategos i get a malus with everybody even the said man had botched an entire campaign.

Maybe we can have a special trait like "disgraced" , "incompetent" etc. which could give you free revoke of the office of Strategos without getting a malus with everyone but only with him.

 

[aono]

What do u mean?

Well. Current system as I know allow byz emperor (if he hadn't lost his imperial administration by factions) to revoke viceroyalities just when he wants, without any reason at all. Well, former strategos will not very fond, and, of course, he can resist such revocation, but it's fully possible. Also of course player can give revoked of returned viceroyality to every vassal he wants (and personally I always give them to most powerful adult dejure count to prevent civil wars in the duchy). So if you're speaking about mechanics, they already are there (and I believe only thing we lacks is viceroyality counties).
But if you're speaking about AI using this mechanisms, yeah, that can be better.

 

[aono]

Oh wait. Strategos are king-level viceroyalities, right?

 

[thevmag]

What if: an honourary title similar to Designated Heir for republics that viceroys can grant. Upon death, Byzzie will be expected to grant the title to this designated heir, or receive a penalty? Say, opinion penalty on par with unlawful revocation/dishonourable, insulted penalty with DH's kin, prestige hit...

 

[Robert II]

Oh wait. Strategos are king-level viceroyalities, right?

Pretty sure exarch is what viceroy kings are if you're Greek.

 

[aono]

So, today it looks like that:

Pretty sure exarch is what viceroy kings are if you're Greek.

Yeah, checked already.

 

[St. LongEar]

So, today it looks like that:
View attachment 202746



Yeah, checked already.

You can't revoke any title if:
1. you just granted it recently
2. Character was granted a title recently by higher liege - who died after granting title
I don't know the time - but it should be year or so and you will be able to revoke it again. If your time limit is not crucial and you don't have to make new kingdom viceroyalty, then just wait and then revoke.

Also, yes, I don't understand AI logic at all, that they are not granting titles to their kin and I have to micromanage low level titles. If CK2 has dynasties, why they are not working?

I can understand why revoking is necessary - because granting just king level viceroyalty gives measly bump in opinion, but granting bunch of ducjy viceroyalties and kindom viceroyalty usually gives +100 opinion bonus.

 

[aono]

I don't know the time - but it should be year or so and you will be able to revoke it again. If your time limit is not crucial and you don't have to make new kingdom viceroyalty, then just wait and then revoke.

Yes, I know, it's just example that there is a possibility to revoke viceroyality without penalty. This screenshot here for the text, not for a button.

 

[St. LongEar]

Yes, I know, it's just example that there is a possibility to revoke viceroyality without penalty. This screenshot here for the text, not for a button.

Wait... What penalty? So far you could revoke viceroyalties for free(0 prestige loss) anyway. Some of them would rebell, that's all.

 

[aono]

Wait... What penalty? So far you could revoke viceroyalties for free(0 prestige loss) anyway. Some of them would rebell, that's all.

Yeah, that's my point.

Topic starter offer an idea:

And plz make it easier to revoke Viceroyalties. The office of Strategos during Byzantine times was granted and revoked numerous times dependant on the abilities of the holder. If for instance the Strategos of Koloneia fails to defend his lands from an invasion or he invades a foreign territory and fails then the Emperor would have just reason to revoke his Viceroyalty freely and granted it to someone else who might be more capable. Of course proud, ambitious, wroth characters could refuse revoke and rebel. But free revoking and regranting of the office of Strategos and rebellions because the Emperor wanted to strip someone from office were something that happened a lot in Byzantine times.

I said it's exact current system, or even better (Emperor don't need a reason at all - if he had Imperial Administration and we're speaking about duchy-level viceroyalities), but AI don't use it good, and offer a screen to show it's exact current system.

 

[schondetta]

Threads like these are pointless because yeah of course a game mechanic isn't going to be even remotley close to real life so what outcome are people expecting like overall? Paradox to perfectly tune every realm in every bookmark? If the it's not good enough feel free to make a mod. Even if they did we still have little understanding on the theme system of the medieval period and no doubt did the responsibility and expectations change over time