Ahistorical Pop Distribution & Why Accuracy Would Be More Fun

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FryFroFella

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Something I've noticed after putting a good 70 hours into Imperator is how similar distribution of pop types is across the classical world, speaking specifically about slaves. In Rome and Greece, slavery was historically the basis of production, and the viability of Roman westward expansion into tribal lands depended heavily on the recruitment of mass slave gangs on latifundium. (see P.A. Brunt, Social Conflicts in the Roman Empire, for sources and more on this topic). And generally Rome's viability as an empire depended heavily on large slave estates controlled by the aristocracy, compared to Greece where, permitting some variation among city-states, slavery was generally done on smaller plots owned by individual citizens of no special rank besides their relative wealth and office compared to non-citizens.

Now this distinction between Roman and Greek slavery is something minor that I don't think needs representation in the game and can be chalked up to abstractions and headcanon.

The most pressing ahistorical element of the game relating to pops and production is that it presents slavery as the ubiquitous standard method of production for all of the Hellenistic World and the Near East. This was not true at all -- even in the most Hellenized regions of the lands conquered by Alexander (Pergamum notably excluded, which saw a full embrasure of Greek style slavery, but had the precedent of many Greek colonies there). Near Eastern societies relied largely, in some places almost exclusively, on castes of peasants that worked on land ruled by aristocratic dynasties large and small. Slavery was marginal, and remained marginal even after the Levant, Anatolia and Egypt came under Roman control. The Lagid dynasty in Egypt relied especially on the leasing of land to Egyptian peasantry. The slaves captured by Rome in the eastern wars were sent to Italy or the western provinces where the latifundium and the slaves working them were the main source of agricultural production. In the east, before the Diadochi, through their rule, and into Roman rule, slavery remained marginal and neither the Hellenic or Roman empires attempted to institute it on any scale, since the existing model worked well enough and provided them with a lucrative tax base, disrupting it would cause serious conflict since it would mean replacing the established local aristocratic land rights with Roman private ownership of agricultural land, not to mention it would mean instituting slavery onto an underclass it was alien to and who probably would not like the change very much. There were also significant variations between the agricultural labor systems of the various eastern societies, but like the distinction between Roman and Greek slavery, that's not something that seems especially important to represent in-game. (see William L. Westermann, The Slave Systems of Greek and Roman Antiquity for sources and more information)

Now why does any of this matter for people who aren't massive nerds that just want to see more accuracy? Well, first of all, a greater variety between the different societies modeled in the game is something we all want anyway, and it would be very nice to see those differences organically addressed through base gameplay features like the types of pops and the role of pops in managing and expanding your state. This is a lot more fun than variety that is only cosmetics and unique mission trees. One of the advantages Rome had over other powers was that its reliance on mass slavery freed up a lot of manpower for freemen to go fight in wars, wars which brought in more slaves and more land for slaves to work on. This was especially relevant for westward expansion, since Gallia and Iberia were made up of tribes without the kind of social stratification that would allow for them to be integrated wholesale under Roman rule with an existing tax base and organization of production (a wholesale integration without fundamental changes in society that was indeed possible during eastern expansion). This differentiation between western and eastern expansion is why the western empire was so thoroughly Latinized in language and culture while in the Near East and Egypt it remained a largely administrative language and culture outside of distinct Roman colonies. In gameplay terms, the Roman ability to field far more soldiers doesn't need to be represented by only statistical buffs, when the pop system provides the basis for simulating the real reasons underlying Rome's potential for mass mobilization.

Overall though, I don't think it's Rome that needs to be changed much in the game, since the entire game's mechanics seem to be centered around Rome's model to begin with. What's needed is a remodeling of the eastern side of the map to reflect their unique social composition and its limitations. Sure, Rome is the main character of the game, but 1. differentiating the other major powers in a fundamental way makes Rome more unique instead of distinguished mostly by being the titular nation 2. we all know that Paradox players enjoy playing less represented nations just as much as the big names. As opposed to cosmetic changes and unique mission trees, differentiation in underlying mechanics allows for more a more meaningful variety between playthroughs, making the game more fun and extending its life by keeping players interested in seeing how a different nation works from the inside, which is a much more compelling reason to sink in an extra hundred hours than just wanting to use sprites in a different uniform to paint the map under a different flag.

What are my specific recommendations? I have no experience with game design so I don't want to sound ridiculous or make unrealistic suggestions, and I'll leave the details of that to people who know what they're talking about. I'll provide some suggestions anyway and people can tell me how silly they are, if they'd break the game, etc.

I think a greater variety of pops is obviously implied here. In the east, "Peasants" should replace slaves as the majority underclass, but not just in name. At the least, moving them around to different areas should decrease their happiness and lower province loyalty. They should have a higher ceiling of productivity than slaves, but one that resets and takes a long time to grow after they're moved around (representing local peasant infrastructure and specialization around a particular form of agriculture/industry). Slaves should still remain as a pop in the east, as they certainly did exist, but should be a much smaller sliver of the workforce. Increasing slavery pops should be possible and have tangible benefits, but should be difficult in places with large established classes of peasantry, and should still have a lower ultimate ceiling than Freemen as far as resource output and value (see below for Freeman changes) This would simulate the gap left by the absence of productive, specialized "middle classes", and also incentivize Roman players to conquer eastern provinces to get more value for the resources there due to less dependence on a slave class/a greater spread of freemen to draw manpower from, or alternatively they could attempt to establish a sizable peasant class, with the growing pains that would entail.

Freemen should have a greater role in production, with certain non-raw material resources requiring the presence of freemen to see their full potential realized. This would be cancelled out by having enough slave pops to fill those roles in production, which would allow more Freemen to be utilized as manpower. Basically building the historical pop relations into the game so that the Roman and Greek nations, by benefit of their large slave underclasses, have a greater manpower pool to draw from by freeing up their freemen for war, as well as having more flexibility in settling new lands because they can move slaves around in a way nations relying on peasantry can't.

A bit more out there as a recommendation, but I think governance of territories/regions in the eastern map could also be changed to represent the role of the local dynastic aristocratic claims to land in the east, as opposed to the quasi-meritocratic state bureaucracy of Rome granting governship to favored individuals. Maybe the character and dynastic system in the game which has some resemblance to CK2 could provide a basis for this, with eastern state's granting land to/interacting with local aristocrat dynasties instead of individual characters who relinquish the governed area upon death? The option could still exist to use the Roman/Hellenic system of granting governship, but displacing and dethroning the landed aristocracy of those territories should present serious challenges. This would be a great way to model the struggle of the Diadochi to balance Hellenic models of administration with local ones, choosing as appropriate between a model that allows for greater ultimate loyalty and central integration at the great risk of remaking the ancient order of things in the conquered lands, or choosing to integrate into the eastern systems of administration by keeping the landed dynasties happy and allowing for greater overall stability without as much flexibility.

So those are my thoughts, I hope this wasn't too long or tedious of a post, I'm not ever on this forum so if something this long and presumptuous doesn't match the usual standards of etiquette I apologize. I just love the game and am excited to see it grow, and since I know a little about the period wanted to share my thoughts.
 
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Samitte

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Now why does any of this matter for people who aren't massive nerds that just want to see more accuracy?

I think this game is in an excellent position to low-bar educate people more about the ancient world, similarly to its other flagship titles. More so then their other games which tend to be periods people know somewhat more about. But the ancient world is mostly seen entirely from a Graeco-Roman perspective in much of the world, in which most nuance and the amazing place it was is lost under the smoke of 'barbarians' vs 'civilised' peoples.

People often note how much they learned about other historical periods through PDX games, and hopefully Imperator can become as good in doing so.

In gameplay terms, the Roman ability to field far more soldiers doesn't need to be represented by only statistical buffs, when the pop system provides the basis for simulating the real reasons underlying Rome's potential for mass mobilization.

There have been many discussions on tying pops to manpower, so I think this will find many a listening ear here. Personally, I'd really like to see units and culture tied together somehow. After all, one thing that often comes through in the sources is the vast diversity of different peoples within ancient armnies, with different ethnic groups often fulfilling specific roles. This in turn could make expansion much more rewarding as you get to add ethnic auxiliaries to your forces.

I think a greater variety of pops is obviously implied here. In the east, "Peasants" should replace slaves as the majority underclass, but not just in name. At the least, moving them around to different areas should decrease their happiness and lower province loyalty. They should have a higher ceiling of productivity than slaves, but one that resets and takes a long time to grow after they're moved around (representing local peasant infrastructure and specialization around a particular form of agriculture/industry). Slaves should still remain as a pop in the east, as they certainly did exist, but should be a much smaller sliver of the workforce. Increasing slavery pops should be possible and have tangible benefits, but should be difficult in places with large established classes of peasantry, and should still have a lower ultimate ceiling than Freemen as far as resource output and value (see below for Freeman changes) This would simulate the gap left by the absence of productive, specialized "middle classes", and also incentivize Roman players to conquer eastern provinces to get more value for the resources there due to less dependence on a slave class/a greater spread of freemen to draw manpower from, or alternatively they could attempt to establish a sizable peasant class, with the growing pains that would entail.

Idea wise, this sounds good. What is often brought up is that slaves represent peasants or whatever the local equivalent of the lower class is. But I personally find it quite immersion breaking to constantly have to deal with Slaves in all contexts anyway. So I would very much like to see something like this implemented.

A bit more out there as a recommendation, but I think governance of territories/regions in the eastern map could also be changed to represent the role of the local dynastic aristocratic claims to land in the east, as opposed to the quasi-meritocratic state bureaucracy of Rome granting governship to favored individuals. Maybe the character and dynastic system in the game which has some resemblance to CK2 could provide a basis for this, with eastern state's granting land to/interacting with local aristocrat dynasties instead of individual characters who relinquish the governed area upon death?

Gameplay design is not my forté either, but I would like to see some difference implemented along these lines.

So those are my thoughts, I hope this wasn't too long or tedious of a post, I'm not ever on this forum so if something this long and presumptuous doesn't match the usual standards of etiquette I apologize. I just love the game and am excited to see it grow, and since I know a little about the period wanted to share my thoughts.

Oh quite the opposite! This forum could do with some more eloquent and clearly well researched and thought out posts like this! I certainly hope you come around more often.
 
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Harlehus

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Good post

But surely the peasants of the east were slaves all but in name?

And isn't the 3 pop types an abstraction of the upper, middle and lower class anyways?
 

Samitte

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Good post

But surely the peasants of the east were slaves all but in name?

And isn't the 3 pop types an abstraction of the upper, middle and lower class anyways?

While the situation is slightly different across the massive region of the 'east', the lower classes were certainly not slaves all but in name. Slaves were very distinct from the free lower classes, and even the unfree ones (unfree does not mean slave, but rather something akin to a tenant farmer). This means mechanically they were closer to ingame Freemen then Slaves and this should have large implications. I say this because currently everyone, Persian, Hellenic, Indian, or Hiberian alike, uses the same system of conquest and slavery. Some get bonuses to Enslavement, but these large movements of peoples via slavery are entirely unhistorical for most of the ancient east. Some slaves were undoubtebly taken, but nothing remotely close to the extent of slavery in Graeco-Roman society, not even near the end of the game's timeframe.

When populations were forcably moved, this was normally via deportations, and this did not nessecarily change the socio-economic status of those deported that drastically, compared to being enslaved. Playing as an eastern power you should not be taking in loads of enslaved pops following a successful war. Though the option to occasionally deport part of the population of a city to capture to one you own would be an interesting one as part of the city sacking event. This could target a city you own with a lot of space, and move the population there, with some mid-term negative consequences.
 
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Jays298

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Great suggestions!

I believe the government and government system just aren't linked enough and are a bit generic. For instance there should be a law regarding appointments for office and governor.

Did governors or Civic officials in Republics really expect lifetime appointments in this era?

I always thought the "sack a capital and bring slaves back to Rome" model was wacky. Insofar as eventually Rome or the capital cannot feed any more people. And my other provinces, like Galla Cisalpina are sparsely populated. You'd think Rome would send the new pops to where they are needed. Yes you can pay to move some of them but it's cumbersome.

I think the pop system needs to be more dirty, as in all pops add to all things but some pops do some things better.

Everything seems like rock paper scissors. When it should be more like "this is how Rome does it" this is Greeks... this is Egyptian, etc.

And Tribes seem, though I've never played one, seem to conquer exactly like other states. Religion seems to play a greater role than tribal status.

Less about stats more about governments relate to offices and pops.
 
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Jiben

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So we should have a new pop type to for serfs/peasants perhaps? Or would that infringe on freemen? We could otherwise straight up rename slaves to serfs for some cultures if we feel it dosent add anything to add a new pop type?

Should it be tied to culture perhaps? having some laws regarding slavery and have special laws/options depending on your culture?

And isn't the 3 pop types an abstraction of the upper, middle and lower class anyways?

True but in the next patch upper class will be split between nobles and citizens so we could perhaps split lower class aswell?
 
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blackbirdgriffi

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Yes and there needs to be a "colonisation" mechanics of establishing your "ethnicity" in places to develop stable and loyal power bases in foreign regions.

This would be awsome and help picture the problems that for exemples the seleucids and iirc the lagids also, which were two nations that had a struggle to have capable hellenistic manpower and which required to attract hellenic population to develop power bases and where they had to rely sometime on "hellenised" troops.

Or the same thing for roman latin colonies, which for exemple where very loyal to rome (IIRC only one latin colony revolted during the social wars and there where dozens)

That's part which I'm personnaly having mixed feeling about the new cultural changes applied to every nations even though it is a big improvement from the paradox way of doing culture which goes ==> these guys are in charge so everyone convert to their culture.

But to answer the OP, this is a great take on a demanded feature and another instance where tying game mechanics together is what this game sorely needs to be both coherent, fun and allows for both emergent narratives and "historically authentic" decision making, I mean just tying pops, manpower and culture together with a rework of internal governement system would IMHO turn this game from the slow kid in the block to the amazing game it has the potential to become.
 

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While the situation is slightly different across the massive region of the 'east', the lower classes were certainly not slaves all but in name. Slaves were very distinct from the free lower classes, and even the unfree ones (unfree does not mean slave, but rather something akin to a tenant farmer). This means mechanically they were closer to ingame Freemen then Slaves and this should have large implications. I say this because currently everyone, Persian, Hellenic, Indian, or Hiberian alike, uses the same system of conquest and slavery. Some get bonuses to Enslavement, but these large movements of peoples via slavery are entirely unhistorical for most of the ancient east. Some slaves were undoubtebly taken, but nothing remotely close to the extent of slavery in Graeco-Roman society, not even near the end of the game's timeframe.

When populations were forcably moved, this was normally via deportations, and this did not nessecarily change the socio-economic status of those deported that drastically, compared to being enslaved. Playing as an eastern power you should not be taking in loads of enslaved pops following a successful war. Though the option to occasionally deport part of the population of a city to capture to one you own would be an interesting one as part of the city sacking event. This could target a city you own with a lot of space, and move the population there, with some mid-term negative consequences.

What i meant by slaves all but in name is that they served the same role in society as did slaves. Cultivating the land producing different types of agricultural or tradeable goods some of which they gave in tribute to the rulers of the state. Maybe it is just because i see the slave pop in game as an abstraction of a poorer rural class that to a large extend was under the sway of the ruler and the ruling class which i find to be historically correct.
 

FryFroFella

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Thanks for the replies glad I'm not alone in seeing changes in this as very necessary, might get around to individual replies later but not on here much.

you should certainly turn this into a suggestion and put it in that forum!

How would I go about doing that? Would a copy/paste with acknowledgement of crossposting be acceptable?
 

Álvaro Núñez de Lara

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Yes and there needs to be a "colonisation" mechanics of establishing your "ethnicity" in places to develop stable and loyal power bases in foreign regions.

This would be awsome and help picture the problems that for exemples the seleucids and iirc the lagids also, which were two nations that had a struggle to have capable hellenistic manpower and which required to attract hellenic population to develop power bases and where they had to rely sometime on "hellenised" troops.

Or the same thing for roman latin colonies, which for exemple where very loyal to rome (IIRC only one latin colony revolted during the social wars and there where dozens)

That's part which I'm personnaly having mixed feeling about the new cultural changes applied to every nations even though it is a big improvement from the paradox way of doing culture which goes ==> these guys are in charge so everyone convert to their culture.

But to answer the OP, this is a great take on a demanded feature and another instance where tying game mechanics together is what this game sorely needs to be both coherent, fun and allows for both emergent narratives and "historically authentic" decision making, I mean just tying pops, manpower and culture together with a rework of internal governement system would IMHO turn this game from the slow kid in the block to the amazing game it has the potential to become.


That feature is already being introduced in the next patch. Its one of the culture decisions to colonize sending pops of your culture to other cultures to speed up assimilation. Check out the dev diary on it.
 
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I_am_Nemo

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How do I do that? Is there a way to tag them or do I just say

Could I mod please move this to the place for recommendations please?

I don't see there being any problem with just copy-pasting your original text, making what edits you feel are appropriate, and posting in the suggestions forum. If the mods have an issue with the duplication, they can always delete this thread, but I doubt that'll happen since there's been separate discussion here.
 
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Sparticulous

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Could I mod please move this to the place for recommendations please?
mods constantly read these threads. I made a small troll post once and I got a message from a mod 5 minutes later. So don't worry, that should be enough. The mods who patrol will probably just tell their suggestion or thread moving buddy
 

Gurkhal

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I think this is an excellent post but given how the basic mechanic is essentially focused around late republic Rome, in the same way that western feudalism is the basis for Crusader Kings, I wouldn't expect something radical until a possible Imperator II.