AHD Economy Discussion

[Secret Master]

Maybe I missed someone else suggesting it, but my Vicky instincts are screaming "Tariffs! Tariffs! The tariffs are killing us!"

Thanks to how AHD has changed the economy, goods are scarcer now and subject to higher prices (on inputs). This means that if you import any goods for your factories, and you slap a 25% tariff on those inputs, the profit margin of that factory goes away and it dies.

The impact is so severe that you can literally kill 75% of your IND by raising tariffs to 100% and watching the economy burn. I was goofing around as Germany last night, and I went from most prosperous nation to crash-and-burned economy within 3 months from raising tariffs to max. It's even worse during large and lengthy wars because blockades screw with availability from the combatants while tariffs jack the prices of remaining goods up.

Even a 10% tariff can be dangerous to industries with low margins of profitability. I avoid tariffs like the plague right now unless I have no other choice to generate the needed revenue. But if I need money for a war, and tariffs are the only way, I switch to "subsidize all" so my industry doesn't die until I can go back to normal.

 

[Beagá]

This is a good point. I tried to get Picardie from France in my Netherlands game (failed, UK is useless as ally) and since I raised tariffs to above 10% my military score tripled when the war ended. Why? TONS of factories closed > huge unemployment (since many East Indies islands were already states and had factories) > massive demotion to soldier POP. Really, it made the military score jump from 100 to above 300! Had to download screenshot, look how absurd it is heh. I´ve reopened most of the factories already that´s why it dropped.

So, avoid tariffs like the plague.

 

[kingsword]

I never put any tariffs on anything and my industry is eating away all of my income with subsidization in 1868. It's not a problem of tariffs. Raw materials are too scarce and people are too poor to buy anything while demand increases prices even more. No resource boosting techs for the uncivilized makes the conditions even worse.

And this is during peace, war is so costly now, I don't know why would I wage war after uniting Germany. I guess I'll just build up my country till 1936 watching spreadsheets everyday so that the country doesn't kill itself promoting craftsmen that's working to produce goods that won't sell.

Mind you, I'd go back to AHD if it wasn't for reform movements. Economy changes pretty much killed this game. It's kinda like EU2 back in the day: Everybody is constantly in the red for most of the game.

 

[Raph]

I never put any tariffs on anything and my industry is eating away all of my income with subsidization in 1868. It's not a problem of tariffs. Raw materials are too scarce and people are too poor to buy anything while demand increases prices even more. No resource boosting techs for the uncivilized makes the conditions even worse.

And this is during peace, war is so costly now, I don't know why would I wage war after uniting Germany. I guess I'll just build up my country till 1936 watching spreadsheets everyday so that the country doesn't kill itself promoting craftsmen that's working to produce goods that won't sell.

Mind you, I'd go back to AHD if it wasn't for reform movements. Economy changes pretty much killed this game. It's kinda like EU2 back in the day: Everybody is constantly in the red for most of the game.

So you seriously preferred it when you were swimming in money and had no need to prioritize? Money should be in short supply, so that you actually have to make decisions in the game. Just being able to pay for anything you want is boring.

 

[kingsword]

No, I preferred the game when world wine consumption didn't drop from 750 to 250 in a couple of weeks, stay like for a year, then go back up to 650.

Just play the game watching trade tab for several hours and you'll notice the insane and meaningless (two minors bashing each other won't cause a worldwide recession) fluctuations.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

I never put any tariffs on anything and my industry is eating away all of my income with subsidization in 1868. It's not a problem of tariffs. Raw materials are too scarce and people are too poor to buy anything while demand increases prices even more. No resource boosting techs for the uncivilized makes the conditions even worse.

And this is during peace, war is so costly now, I don't know why would I wage war after uniting Germany. I guess I'll just build up my country till 1936 watching spreadsheets everyday so that the country doesn't kill itself promoting craftsmen that's working to produce goods that won't sell.

Mind you, I'd go back to AHD if it wasn't for reform movements. Economy changes pretty much killed this game. It's kinda like EU2 back in the day: Everybody is constantly in the red for most of the game.

If you are playing something as powerful as the NGF you should have been able to build an industry that could take care of itself. There must be some weird structural problem in your industry, like focusing on upgrading a few types of industry. Also, as a great power, use spheres mate.

 

[kingsword]

It cannot take care of itself when INSANE fluctuations on the world market occur, I sphered pretty much everything worthwhile (probably a fifth of world population, have all exotic raw materials supplied as well) except Chinese Empire main state. I don't overproduce anything, I have factories of every possible type out there. But I cannot do when world simply doesn't buy it. One morning, they wake up and say, "no we won't buy wine anymore". Sales amount goes down from 750 to 250. You cannot do anything for that. If such a thing occurred in the real world, whole markets would crash and burn in a week.

 

[unmerged(230756)]

im playing with hawaii. due to high literacy and usa's SOI i have westernized pretty fast. and then i did prestige researches, conquered johore so i became great power. im currently 5th great power and number 1 at prestige. i have many countries in my SOI (include china, japan as unciv and mexica, scandinavia as civ). well why am i telling these stuffs? despite of these, my factories keep bankrupting. for example, my furniture factory produce 3 units per day but cant sell any of them. even my pops demand 20 units per day. seriously i dont get that why i cant even sell goods to my pops? my pops are rich enough to buy their needs. most of them have their luxury needs. yet i cant sell a furniture to them. it's kinda weird.

 

[Derp]

I never put any tariffs on anything and my industry is eating away all of my income with subsidization in 1868. It's not a problem of tariffs. Raw materials are too scarce and people are too poor to buy anything while demand increases prices even more. No resource boosting techs for the uncivilized makes the conditions even worse.

And this is during peace, war is so costly now, I don't know why would I wage war after uniting Germany. I guess I'll just build up my country till 1936 watching spreadsheets everyday so that the country doesn't kill itself promoting craftsmen that's working to produce goods that won't sell.

Mind you, I'd go back to AHD if it wasn't for reform movements. Economy changes pretty much killed this game. It's kinda like EU2 back in the day: Everybody is constantly in the red for most of the game.

Again, stop subsidizing your factories. If your people are too poor as Germany you need to cut taxes or otherwise work to improve their lot.
I'm not trying to brag but here's a picture of my budget screen circa 1895:

Spoiler

And this is as a released country that starts out with half a million people and almost no industry or valuable domestic resources (at least in game).

As far as all the fluctuations go... that's probably due to AI stupidity, which is very much in need of some tuning, as it seems to have problems dealing with the new economy. But if your industry is robust enough it should be able to absorb some shocks without collapsing entirely.

 

[zarinth]

If you can not control your economy don't pick command style econ just go Lazy Free.

 

[kingsword]

Yeah well, it appears that people still don't understand what I'm talking about. I guess as people play, the complaints will pile up to fix it in a patch while I play CK2.

 

[Secret Master]

Well, if the wine industry is subject to volatile demand as you claim, then I think it's time to get out. Just produce enough to cover your needs +20 and shift the economy in another direction. You've got the power to do it, so why not just exercise it?

I've seen some volatile demand in trade, but not in every industry all the time. Because resources are in shorter supply than they were in Vic2, and since factories are not as super efficient as they once were, profit margins are thinner all around. If some major power raises taxes on everyone who drinks wine, causing them to not buy anymore, then there's nothing you can do about it.

Now, aggro pointed out he can't sell furniture to his own POPs. That seems a little weird. I wonder if selling priority is screwed up somewhere?

 

[Beagá]

I´ve noticed sometimes factories go in the red due to lack of machine parts for factory maintenance. Check the production tab - sometimes you will have to get good prestige and build stockpiles of machine parts; and don´t forget to tick the box that allows POPs and factories to buy from the stockpile. Happened with me in my SP game, my textile factories didn´t produce anything, checked why, voilá - no machine parts.

 

[Raph]

It cannot take care of itself when INSANE fluctuations on the world market occur, I sphered pretty much everything worthwhile (probably a fifth of world population, have all exotic raw materials supplied as well) except Chinese Empire main state. I don't overproduce anything, I have factories of every possible type out there. But I cannot do when world simply doesn't buy it. One morning, they wake up and say, "no we won't buy wine anymore". Sales amount goes down from 750 to 250. You cannot do anything for that. If such a thing occurred in the real world, whole markets would crash and burn in a week.

I've heard that the economy used to go through a lot of seemingly "insane" booms and busts in the 1800's. Apparently, it still does to this day.

 

[kingsword]

Well, if the wine industry is subject to volatile demand as you claim, then I think it's time to get out. Just produce enough to cover your needs +20 and shift the economy in another direction. You've got the power to do it, so why not just exercise it?

I've seen some volatile demand in trade, but not in every industry all the time. Because resources are in shorter supply than they were in Vic2, and since factories are not as super efficient as they once were, profit margins are thinner all around. If some major power raises taxes on everyone who drinks wine, causing them to not buy anymore, then there's nothing you can do about it.

Now, aggro pointed out he can't sell furniture to his own POPs. That seems a little weird. I wonder if selling priority is screwed up somewhere?

It's not like I can convert wineries into something else overnight, factory build speed is the limiter. In any case, world demand went back to normal after 2 years. So, there's something going noticeably wrong. 750 to 250, then 750 again. No GP or populous country at war. No reason for a fluctuation of this scale on a consumer product.

And it wasn't just the wine in fact, I was going in red for a couple of years, then voila! Back in the green again. Was losing 1500, then began earning 1500. Same factories, just the world demand changed rapidly.

I´ve noticed sometimes factories go in the red due to lack of machine parts for factory maintenance. Check the production tab - sometimes you will have to get good prestige and build stockpiles of machine parts; and don´t forget to tick the box that allows POPs and factories to buy from the stockpile. Happened with me in my SP game, my textile factories didn´t produce anything, checked why, voilá - no machine parts.

It isn't that, I produce but world doesn't buy it.

I've heard that the economy used to go through a lot of seemingly "insane" booms and busts in the 1800's. Apparently, it still does to this day.

But it didn't take several decades to rebuild a factory. The game itself doesn't let the player to shift his production when you reach midgame and level 1 factories no more can house a freshly closed lvl 10 factory.

 

[delra]

So... there was a recession. What's so strange about that?

 

[Flooper X]

One weird thing, as germany the Metz gold mine is financing my entire country (save for a symbolic 3% flat tax contributing about that much to my budget as well) Maybe that huge cash infusion is what keeps my system going, but I do at least manage to have the number one industry and army (at 1200 industry score) with laissez faire and thus no subsidies. I used to have a struggling economy weakened by massive subsidies in the 1840's-50's but as the liberals took over i had a minor crash with about 20% of my economy going bankrupt, followed by an amazing buildup which eventually put me as the number one industrial nation, way ahead of everyone else.

What i noticed is that there is, above the industrial superpowers (me, UK, France, Austria, US) a constant fluctuation in the great power club, because all of the lesser nations seem to have extremely varying industrial scores, never going above 100. It seems like the big boys are safe at their dominant levels, with me and the US being the only ones with actual growth, and then the rest are just struggling to pick up the scraps. Even Russia lost their GP-status due to what I assume was an economic collapse, they had no wars close to it, but their army and industry collapsed, and it only reversed this course when I started building railroads there. On top of that I must be the only major country that did not go bankrupt ever (well, me and the UK) So it definitely seems like the world economy is a harsh place, but then again maybe it should be?
I like it at least, considering my dominance

 

[kingsword]

So... there was a recession. What's so strange about that?

Greece didn't go bankrupt, strange enough?

But seriously, another year passed and now wine sales are at 1000 units. Took like a couple of years to crash (250) and a couple of years to expand.

 

[Naselus]

An inherent boom-and-bust cycle suggests that the economy is modelling the real world pretty well, tbh. Recessions, depressions, booms and busts being capable of happening on-the-fly without event prompting is a good thing imo.

 

[kingsword]

And as I was saying, factory building speed also has to match real world then. One thing for sure: Capitalists won't be able to build back all these when the factories are destroyed.

Another fluctuation wave just hit and I'm in the red again. Whole China in sphere. No wars. Wine demand dropped from 1000 to 300 overnight. Awesome..