Ah... Argentina

[Polarisan]

We Argentineans have a hard time getting to discuss politics, at least when it comes to World War 2 in our own country. The reason this is so is because it was too damn complicated. Just to give you all a small bullet point list of why it was so complicated is mainly my goal in this game, but also to hopefully get some PDox comment on how it's being handled. Since we don't have a good map representation I'm sure we'll get a good ideological representation.. right? Well, wishful thinking aside, here goes.

-Argentina was neutral during WW1 mainly because there was a huge shift in internal politics with an electorate reform, but also because we could trade with everyone. However this was not undisputed, as a great symbiotic relationship had developed with the UK, and a lot of people argued if Argentina's place should be with her sister republics against monarchy.

-Argentina saw a great increase in industry due to the capacity it had to replace the developed nation's manufacturing industry in the interim of the war. This meaning it kinda tried to do the same thing in WW2.

-After the great depression, a coup d'etat removed the democratic regime since 1860, and a fraudulent machine was put in place to ensure that the party in charge always won. The army had big ties with Germany even sending officers to train there. Italy was also in the mix, but not so much.

-However not everyone in the army was with Fascism. In fact Ortiz, president until his death in '42 was for the allies, but pressures from the army kept him from breaking with the axis. There was also a huge split in the population between pro-allied and pro-neutrality. Pro-Axis was a minority in the debate.

-After '43 another coup made a political group from the army take charge, strictly germanophile. It continued a policy of neutrality, however this time it was much more belligerent, actively opposing "US imperialism" in trying to get the americas to DoW GER.

-'46 saw the rise of Peron, member of this new group who admired italian fascism and elected to office in an extremely disputed election. His motto: "Braden or Peron" (basically saying imperialism vs Argentina. Braden being the ambassador from the US sent to try and sway the election towards the party deposed in the '30 coup)

-During this entire time, we did not stop trading with the UK. In fact, the UK owed us a lot of money after the war and they paid the great general with his pick in huge surplus of military equipment. As in Jet interceptors, for example.

All this jumble of things explain why Argentina being neutral during one world war and the other is completely different, and how close we actually were from actually being in the war this time around, not to mention all the supposed hiding of nazi war criminals after the war and stuff. IF in fact, Argentina is actually being studied, it could propose a whole new area of play for whoever plays the US if WW2 comes to the Americas.

Also, are we getting the pan-american conferences in the game or is this up to mods? They had a lot to say about a all around the americas guaranteeing of independence.

TL;DR: Argentina's IC should increase with the start of the war, unless of course it joins it. Political party at the time of the war, pro-allied. Coup in '43 that is pro-axis a lot of the people behind the coup are in the army all through '36 to '43. Population is pro allied or pro neutrality, never pro axis at least until the end of the war. ARG-GER influence should be a factor in getting american nations to DoW the axis.

 

[Adonnus]

I'd like to play an Axis Argentina game. Not starting in 1943 though, earlier than that. That would be something.

 

[Victor Cortez]

Argentina + Brazil in the axis should be interesting.

 

[Polarisan]

Argentina + Brazil in the axis should be interesting.

However both Brazil and Argentina were almost complete oposites in foreign policy during WW2. Brazil joined the allies in '43 allowing the states to operate a huge amount of airfields for ASW operations on the atlantic. Brazil and Argentina are historical rivals, even when it comes down to their choice of friendships. Brazil always saw eye to eye with the US, while Argentina, partly because of past glory and blind nationalism at times, always tried to oppose US influence in the region, sometimes diplomatically, sometimes irrationally.

Argentina chose as it's primary ally, the UK. at least until '30, but the relationship continued well until the second half of the century. When the economic center shifted from the UK to the US, Brazil benefited a lot from it while Arg stagnated, mainly because of the inabilty to offer the same resources BRA brings to the table when dealing with USA.

I believe a much better interesting scenario would be a war between Arg and Bra as axis-allies while the other nations take sides. and whoever wins drastically improves its side's position.

 

[Caesar15]

Well incase you haven't heard the Monroe Doctrine is fixed, so south americans can declare war on each other without the U.S getting involved.

 

[Victor Cortez]

However both Brazil and Argentina were almost complete oposites in foreign policy during WW2.

But I was talking in in-game terms.
If German and the USSR can ally, or if the US can attack the UK, then anything is possible.

 

[Zaku]

Brazil and Argentina are historical rivals, even when it comes down to their choice of friendships.

That doesn't mean anything. Hungary and Romania were historical rivals as well, yet both were in the Axis.

 

[Oddb@ll]

If one starts in '36 perhaps it is possible to manipulate the surroundings enough to create a different path? The fact that e.g. Brazil joined the allies in '43 should matter little in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps they both could join the axis.

 

[Polarisan]

I definitely hope that's the case. Had Germany done a better job at Barbarossa, I have no doubt that Argentina would have considered joining '42-'43. And Brazil would have doubted a bit more in joining the Allies.

Also remember, Peru and Ecuador also have a minor war at least historically. If in fact something happens in the southern hemisphere that means the axis has a hold down there, Panama could potentially destroy the US in the pacific.

 

[panzerzombie]

I will order Kapitän Langsdorff to annex Argentinia when he anchores in Montevideo

and ofc Uruguay too

 

[frolix42]

Argentina used to be relatively much stronger than it is today. It should have a lot of potential in HoI4.

 

[Beagá]

If one starts in '36 perhaps it is possible to manipulate the surroundings enough to create a different path? The fact that e.g. Brazil joined the allies in '43 should matter little in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps they both could join the axis.

Well we remained neutral for a long time, actually. Also because of friendly relations with Italy.

But the problem is more that no country focused on war industry because... lots of reasons actually, lack of industry being the major one. Not even no focus - no industry. No steel. No aluminium production.

The plan was sending 4 divisions to Italy (american standard so 25k strong) and end up sending only one, all with american equipment, in 1944. That after we lost as much people from sunken merchant ships as from real fighting (2k dead, 1k in each). Imagine crazy fascist douche. Well it could join Axis, just not accomplish much.

What any south american country should be able to do relies a lot on what the developers want to, but it was always my opinion that if conquering a lot is difficult even in Victoria 2, such ahistorical outcomes should be even more difficult in a 10 year game. HOI should be based around the 8 majors/mediums and interactions between them. Becoming stronger than US does not belong to this series. And it´s ok - there are other series where is "plausible".

 

[Praetori]

If one starts in '36 perhaps it is possible to manipulate the surroundings enough to create a different path? The fact that e.g. Brazil joined the allies in '43 should matter little in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps they both could join the axis.

Brazil joining in on the was on the Allied side was seen as so improbable in Brazil at the time that it was said seeing snakes smoking a pipe was more plausible (ie "when pigs fly"). Thus the Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB) called themselves the Cobras Fumantes (smoking snakes) when they went to the war in Europe.
Check the shoulder patches.

I'm pretty confident you'll be able to create all sorts of weird alliances and ahistorical stuff. PDS wouldn't bother putting any effort into the flexible faction mechanic if that wasn't the case. Even minors can create their own factions through national development paths.

 

[CyberianK]

Someone has any sources on stuff like steel and oil production of south american states in WW2 time?

I would guess that most resource deposits weren't sufficiently exploited yet? Would there have been means to do so earlier? I think it would be nice for gameplay mechanics if you allow some countries with special national policies to increase their resource exploitation and industrial base dramatically. Same for some regions like middle ease etc. Would make playing them more interesting. Not saying allow them be an economic powerhouse but at least mature into something that you can work with.
Obviously I mean later because probably at game start none of the countries get their own trees they all get the generic one but hopefully over time PDX builds them.

 

[Victor Cortez]

Becoming stronger than US does not belong to this series. And it´s ok - there are other series where is "plausible".

I don't think anyone is suggesting Brazil should be able tp become stronger than the US.
What I think some of us would like to see is more chaos essentially
Argentina + Brazil could team up and open yet another fron for the US. Will this chnage the war? Probably not. Will it make things more interesting? Probably yes.

 

[Polarisan]

Becoming stronger than US does not belong to this series. And it´s ok - there are other series where is "plausible".

No one ever said that even the combined force of the southern america should be able to match the states. What I did say was that under specific circumstances, the US could have a potential 3rd front very close to home, which would prove to be what north africa was to the UK. Holding Panama should be key in such a scenario, like suez was. More so when if Panama is indeed lost, the long way around involves going really close to Argentina, who would be comfy occupying the falklands if that happens.

If Panama is indeed held by the Axis, attacking it should imply heavy losses for the US because of combat width and because quite possibly, the bulk of the forces should be there for everyone involved. Besides it being a canal crossing, and I think jungle as well.

Keep in mind that the combined navies of Arg and Bra should not be a pushover either. I think its 2 bcs from ARG at least and 3 or 4 from BRA. a 3rd front like this could push back overlord for at least a year. not to mention Sicily-Italy.

I don't know, just thinking out loud. Should Panama fall it would mean that supply and reinforcements for the pacific theatre go down a bunch, buying time for japan and forcing the US to deal with this before either Germany or Japan.

 

[parkerg12]

Yes this is a great, nice op,
What id love to see is a sort of balancing act of all the nations in south America aligning to all different sides. so for instance if the axis has a lot of success and allies influence is low, plus low threat of the "US intervening" then maybe a group of south American countries go axis. then maybe another group goes communist or maybe form there own faction in order to counter the aggressive axis countries. then a spark lights a fire and south America falls into war with the winning side now controlling a pretty decent base. as a player it would be really interesting to see it all play out and have to choose the right side.

a united south America should be pretty strong , id say Japan level strong? , but definitely stronger than Italy

 

[Polarisan]

Someone has any sources on stuff like steel and oil production of south american states in WW2 time?

I would guess that most resource deposits weren't sufficiently exploited yet? Would there have been means to do so earlier? I think it would be nice for gameplay mechanics if you allow some countries with special national policies to increase their resource exploitation and industrial base dramatically. Same for some regions like middle ease etc. Would make playing them more interesting. Not saying allow them be an economic powerhouse but at least mature into something that you can work with.
Obviously I mean later because probably at game start none of the countries get their own trees they all get the generic one but hopefully over time PDX builds them.

What I do undestand is that Argentina had a good oil production based out in comodoro rivadavia, which was pretty good back in the day ( I think hoi 2 had it marked with either 13 or 20, not sure). What I'm sure is that Argentina has no steel, which I'm pretty sure Brazil has, as well as a lot of rubber. Chile has copper, which I guess translates to tungsten, and in bucketloads up in the north regions. Venezuela is also a big oil producer, not sure if back in those years, though. So yes, there's a lot of resources which were being exploited.

 

[Sir Garnet]

The Argentine is blessed by extensive but easily accessible resource-rich territories and high immigration that made it at the time of WW1 a first-tier nation in per capita income., although it fell off the track of growth several times thereafter.

WW2 should see prosperity driven by export which in game would be consumer goods factory output that I suppose could be used to build more industry, which in turn could be turned to military expansion. In our period, the Argentine army was well-organized and respected, though feared as a military threat by Brazil's under-equipped land forces (though Brazil had the superior navy).

It is important to bear in mind that Brazilians, especially in the the large ethnic German and Italian populations, leaned towards Germany rather than Britain, which was even more disliked after Portuguese shipments of German-made arms critical to arming the Brazilian army were hijacked on the high seas by the Royal Navy. This created antagonism with Britain, but people in the US government saw an opportunity to develop a relationship and influence with Brazil. This led to the US and Brazil coyly courting each other and Brazil eventually joining the Allies and fighting in Italy with US arms and training.

The economic rewards of collaboration with the US were extensive, vitalizing Brazilian industry and future economic development with investments and facilities that provided a permanent boost to Brazil's economy and global profile as a regional power.

Things could have taken different courses - earlier arms shipments of German equipment or more German focus on Brazil, fewer advocates for a focus on Brazil in US government and financial circles, or of course different political events in Argentina or Brazil. Brazil might have played the negotiation through the war and missed action. Germany might have been restrained once Brazil declared war, rather than sinking ferries and merchant ships with great loss of life and antagonizing most Brazilians.

Given the rivalry and blood dividing the Argentine from its neighbors, chiefly Brazil and Chile, it seems likely that they they would have fought alongside eash other unless coerced to do so, which the US would not have tried and the Axis even if rampant in Europe would not be able to make credibly threatening. But one or the other could have joined either side with a twist of the e threat would ahve been reluctant to fight alongside ech other. But maybe the dynamics of internal politics could have seen Argentina join the Alllies and Brazil stay out. As for both joining the Axis our of fear of the other and the Gerrmans in the event of an Axis surge, that seems reasonable.

P.S. the only militarily practicable way to get from Brazil to Panama was by sea, which the US could interdict. Getting overrland from Colombia to eastern Panama confronts some particularly inhospitable terrain.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

On the topic of South America, Venezuela has the potential to be of significant interest: in 1939 Venezuela was producing 563,000 barrels of oil a day, making it the 3rd largest producer of oil and number 1 exporter of oil in the world.