Agree/Disagree - Naval improvements should be in the next expansion.

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BeauNiddle

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What do people think about the HOI4 system? seas are split up into (large) zones and fleets patrol there. You can patrol in force (strong but hard to find people) or scout (spread out fleet but easier to find). Or you can go for convoy raiding / piracy.

I think it requires a level of technology that wasn't available at the time (radios to keep in contact) but it's not outside the combat style of the time.

It would also require convoy routes to raid so it probably wont be doable with the current trade system
 

paulatreides0

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What do people think about the HOI4 system? seas are split up into (large) zones and fleets patrol there. You can patrol in force (strong but hard to find people) or scout (spread out fleet but easier to find). Or you can go for convoy raiding / piracy.

I think it requires a level of technology that wasn't available at the time (radios to keep in contact) but it's not outside the combat style of the time.

It would also require convoy routes to raid so it probably wont be doable with the current trade system

Doesn't really make sense for the time. The stuff is HoI is drastically shaped by something that didn't matter up until the mid-to-late 19th century: engines. And, by extension, the need for fuel and the associated logistical expenses. Naval war prior to the Industrial Revolution largely consisted of a few pitched battles and then sending all your ships to sit in front of enemy ports to keep any trade from coming in and any warships from coming out. However, the replacement of wind power that only required a decent breeze (a practically infinite fuel source) with coal/oil engines which required coal/oil made that impossible, as now your ships required constant logistical support to keep going, and fueling your ships could very easily bankrupt you if you just let them stay at sea, burning fuel all day long. So naval dominance became a lot more about mobility and mobile containment instead of static containment as it meant you could do a lot more work with a lot fewer ships.

Furthermore, it simply doesn't make sense for EUIV mechanic wise. In EUIV the only real purpose of fleets is to engage an enemy (outside of transport fleets), outside of that they are oft better off parked in one place instead of constantly moving about. In HoI, however, it makes sense that you have that system as you have convoys and convoy raiding. This means that you actually have a reason to move a small but nimble fleet around: to sink enemy convoys and hurt their capacity to wage war. In EUIV, however, this is meaningless since there is no kind of convoy system (although I, for one, would be very much in favour of a convoy-based trading system.
 
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grommile

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I disagree
I like winning
I like winning, too. I just like to also experience the illusion that the AI is merely bad rather than suicidal.

As a corollary, I'd like to see enemies with significant strategic depth assemble their new army stacks on friendly territory, ideally behind their forts, before marching those armies into occupied or enemy territory to conduct sieges. I'm sick of seeing occupation forces consisting of six artillery regiments with no front-rank accompaniment.
 
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Chief of Staff

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you misread, just as I had. But I got it clarified from Wiz in a PM that it is not the case. It was in the thread where someone was asking for the expansion to be free.

You're right, that was from the thread asking for free expansion. I definitely did misread. :p
 

Ixal

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Doesn't really make sense for the time. The stuff is HoI is drastically shaped by something that didn't matter up until the mid-to-late 19th century: engines. And, by extension, the need for fuel and the associated logistical expenses. Naval war prior to the Industrial Revolution largely consisted of a few pitched battles and then sending all your ships to sit in front of enemy ports to keep any trade from coming in and any warships from coming out. However, the replacement of wind power that only required a decent breeze (a practically infinite fuel source) with coal/oil engines which required coal/oil made that impossible, as now your ships required constant logistical support to keep going, and fueling your ships could very easily bankrupt you if you just let them stay at sea, burning fuel all day long. So naval dominance became a lot more about mobility and mobile containment instead of static containment as it meant you could do a lot more work with a lot fewer ships.
Privateers raiding trade routes still had a lot of impact. Just look at the War of 1812 and all the shipping sunk or captured by the USA despite their technically nonexistant navy.
And just because sailing ships do not need fuel doesn't mean that you could park them somewhere indefinitely. Water and food still needed to be supplied, ships got damaged by weather, etc.

Such a blockading tactic worked against France during the Napoleonic wars because Britain was right next door and thus could easily supply and rotate the blockading fleets, but that is not the norm.
 

paulatreides0

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Privateers raiding trade routes still had a lot of impact. Just look at the War of 1812 and all the shipping sunk or captured by the USA despite their technically nonexistant navy.

I already discussed that. Privateers are already in place, and they are actually relatively decently represented. What isn't really represented is war time commerce raiding by combat fleets. But such an implementation would require convoys to be implemented in the game.

And just because sailing ships do not need fuel doesn't mean that you could park them somewhere indefinitely. Water and food still needed to be supplied, ships got damaged by weather, etc.

And it is *substantially* cheaper and easier to supply food and water than to supply tons of coal or oil. This is why the British could just sit on French ports during many of their wars prior to the Industrial Revolution, but were largely unable to do the same afterwards. Which is why, far more often than not, fuel was a bigger problem than food and water.

Such a blockading tactic worked against France during the Napoleonic wars because Britain was right next door and thus could easily supply and rotate the blockading fleets, but that is not the norm.

The Napoleonic Wars were far from the only war that was used in. It was a common tactic for the era, although probably more so by the British who loved to blockade and had the luxury of being able to do so due to their being disconnected from the continent compared to, say, Spain. Also, this ignores that England blockaded a lot more than just the Northern coast of France during the Napoleonic Wars.

And yes, this required naval ports and supply bases on distant land...which is precisely why places like Gibraltar and Malta and Newfoundland and British Guatemala and so on were so important and of so much strategic value that nations for over relatively small, otherwise worthless pieces of land. Because they allowed the nation to have the strategic flexibility to project power anywhere.
 
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Smoked_peasant

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I've long wanted major development for the navy in EU, since 3 actually. Using light ships to actually steer trade felt wonderfully tactile and active when this game came out. I can't remember if privateers were in from the start, but that's a fun mechanic too. improvements like mothballing, and naval buildings almost being useful now, have added some meat to the navy but I feel there is a lot of room for development.

Galleys feel like the redheaded stepchild of this game, and the last one too. You can't trade with them (which they were also used for), and they're sometimes wildly ineffective even on their own turf. Their design seems to conflict with the naval limit mechanic; a carrack and a galley each take up 1 naval limit, of course the galleys cost about 1/5th a carrack, and the maintenance is so trivial you build as many as you want, and damn the limit.

This game could really use naval manpower, if anyone here has read anything like Nelson's Navy, one thing you can note in there is the vastly larger pool of trained sailors Britain had access to compared to the Spanish & French. When they lost actions, it took much longer to recuperate their strength compared to English defeats. In EU, if your stack gets sunk you can just start building ships from Calais to Provence, they'll all be at full efficiency (whatever your naval tradition is) when they're done. A matter of coastal provinces & shipyards.

Fleet construction should be more more than simple naval infrastructure; after the Ottomans were defeated at Lepanto, they rebuilt most of their fleet in 6 months, but they lost all their composite archers. They would have had to scavenge for trained oarsmen and other sailors. If they'd lost another battle like that in the next few years, they simply wouldn't have been able to field a serious fleet for a generation.

In EU though, loosing a fleet is a time & ducat expenditure. Perhaps a future patch or expansion could change this.
 
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Itchel

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On the bright side, At least in europa universalis im more motivated to actually use my navy than in any other strategy game.
 
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paulatreides0

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Galleys feel like the redheaded stepchild of this game, and the last one too. You can't trade with them (which they were also used for), and they're sometimes wildly ineffective even on their own turf. Their design seems to conflict with the naval limit mechanic; a carrack and a galley each take up 1 naval limit, of course the galleys cost about 1/5th a carrack, and the maintenance is so trivial you build as many as you want, and damn the limit.

Actually, speaking of things that should be able to trade but don't, heavy ships should be trade ships, not light ships... Most of the time trading ships were versions of warships without guns, or outright ships built for war with their guns taken out.

This game could really use naval manpower, if anyone here has read anything like Nelson's Navy, one thing you can note in there is the vastly larger pool of trained sailors Britain had access to compared to the Spanish & French. When they lost actions, it took much longer to recuperate their strength compared to English defeats. In EU, if your stack gets sunk you can just start building ships from Calais to Provence, they'll all be at full efficiency (whatever your naval tradition is) when they're done. A matter of coastal provinces & shipyards.

The problem is that a naval manpower pool doesn't really represent what is really going on. Naval manpower is the exact same thing as normal manpower: active, fit, service-age males who could join the force and fight.

Most of the things that made sailors specialist can't be represented by a pool, but would need a system of profession or education ala Vicky POPs or HoI education laws to actually represent it. In truth, the limiting factor to navies was never manpower: it was time and money. For example, during the Napoleonic Wars Britain did't impress American sailors because it lacked men who could be sailors or lacked the ability to train sailors, it impressed sailors because adequately training sailors took lots of time and money, and at the moment sailors were in drastic need and time was far from plentiful.

Thus, I think EU actually adequately represents ships well in this regard. They are relatively expensive and take quite a bit of time to build. Which represents not just the time and money it takes to build a ship, but also the time and money it takes to assemble and train the crew. I also think heavy ships should take longer to build than they do, but the general idea of it is right as it is, I think.

Fleet construction should be more more than simple naval infrastructure; after the Ottomans were defeated at Lepanto, they rebuilt most of their fleet in 6 months, but they lost all their composite archers. They would have had to scavenge for trained oarsmen and other sailors. If they'd lost another battle like that in the next few years, they simply wouldn't have been able to field a serious fleet for a generation.

...well, composite bowmen were hardly a naval thing.... They were a land unit that had uses at sea. If they had lost a massive number of composite bowmen on land, they would have faced the exact same issue. Archers in general take a lot of time and effort to train, regardless of the kind of bow they use (although, granted, some bows are easier to learn than others). This is why crossbows and then guns became so prevalent in the first place: because they were cheap and easy to make and train.

On the bright side, At least in europa universalis im more motivated to actually use my navy than in any other strategy game.

What about HoI? :p
 
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chrnno

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What about HoI? :p
Well can't speak for him but me in 1 and 2 avoided all but the most simple things and despite trying never could play nations such as GB and Japan. 3 I got annoyed with too many things so never really tried naval.
 

paulatreides0

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I think an important part of any naval overhaul would be to incorporate ship variety and ship roles within a fleet and combat. Combat in EUIV is either throw a bunch of heavies or a bunch of galleys at each other and the bigger number wins, tending to result in monospecies fleets which spits in the face of what we saw in actuality. In reality we saw large, diverse fleets for both economic feasibility and tactical effectiveness.

It wouldn't be rare to see 1 deckers, 2 deckers, and 3 deckers in the same fleet, on the line of battle, with frigates and other smaller ships acting as scouts. And EU should reflect this. Monospecies fleets should, if anything, put you at a disadvantage since they make you less tactically flexible. It should encourage the player to have fleets composed of frigates-types, 1-decker types, 2-decker types, and 3-decker types. Bigger ships should *not* just replace smaller ships as they do now, as bigger and smaller ships all had their uses. Furthermore, it shouldn't pretend that two-and-three deckers weren't invented until late on when all three ship types actually existed side-by-side for large portions of the EUIV time period. Furthermore, it should rehaul ship costs to account for this. For example, there 1st rates were almost never seen outside of home waters because they were so expensive and so prized that they would never risk them abroad, meaning that you rarely saw anything bigger than a 2nd rate outside of home seas. And lastly, ships should not just automatically get tech bonuses, but some tech bonuses should require either refitting at a cost or having to completely rebuild a ship to get the benefit.
 
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bbqftw

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I think that ZoC mechanics hurt naval pretty badly as forts practically lock naval landing forces in place ~

And god-forbid you merge/split your seige stack as you are now magically trapped.
 

Smoked_peasant

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The problem is that a naval manpower pool doesn't really represent what is really going on. Naval manpower is the exact same thing as normal manpower: active, fit, service-age males who could join the force and fight.

Most of the things that made sailors specialist can't be represented by a pool, but would need a system of profession or education ala Vicky POPs or HoI education laws to actually represent it. In truth, the limiting factor to navies was never manpower: it was time and money. For example, during the Napoleonic Wars Britain did't impress American sailors because it lacked men who could be sailors or lacked the ability to train sailors, it impressed sailors because adequately training sailors took lots of time and money, and at the moment sailors were in drastic need and time was far from plentiful.

Thus, I think EU actually adequately represents ships well in this regard. They are relatively expensive and take quite a bit of time to build. Which represents not just the time and money it takes to build a ship, but also the time and money it takes to assemble and train the crew. I also think heavy ships should take longer to build than they do, but the general idea of it is right as it is, I think.

There actually literally were such pools, a naval manpower pool would be comprised of registered sailors, not a general pool that you turn into soldier as the manpower pool is. The accumulation of said sailors would be influenced by conscription programs, the French instituted the conscription maritime in 1681, the Spanish had la leva. At the start of the Napoleonic wars, the French had 60,000 registered sailors, with divisions within of trained specialists (naval gunners, bombardiers,) who in peace time guarded the docks, and at war formed the nucleus crew of ships; the general pool of able-bodied seamen would be drawn up and divied out for war. The British did not on paper have as efficient of a system as the French; ad-hoc impressement of merchant sailors, in the 1790s they also instituted the quota act, which substantially aided in the sailor pool. But British naval recruitment is a big mess. The Royal Navy was enormous, in 1796 there was 114 thousand men in the navy.

The Spanish were deeply constrained by their lack of sailors; in 1787 they had 53,147 registered mariners, and needed 89 thousand to man their fleets fully. They could build all the ships they wanted with their colonial wealth (and did, and the British prized Spanish ship-of-the-line captures), but the acute shortage of sailors had a disastrous effect on their navy.

I don't think the existing scheme is very good, you can lose your entire fleet and it'll make your fighting efficiency better, the next time. The limits are ducats, time, and provinces. But you you can just borrow a sack of ducats, and build a ship of the line in every coastal province you own, (Victoria does this better with big naval bases) and in a few years you've rebuilt your entire fleet, better than before; just gather it up.

Adding time to construction is a good solution as it stands now though, it took years to construct some ships of the line, though galleys shouldn't take more than a year to build.

...well, composite bowmen were hardly a naval thing.... They were a land unit that had uses at sea. If they had lost a massive number of composite bowmen on land, they would have faced the exact same issue. Archers in general take a lot of time and effort to train, regardless of the kind of bow they use (although, granted, some bows are easier to learn than others). This is why crossbows and then guns became so prevalent in the first place: because they were cheap and easy to make and train.

Composite archers were the primary offensive means in the Ottoman navy at the time, losing all of them gutted their primary means of actually fighting at sea. As I said they rebuilt most of their fleet but they avoided confrontation for years.
 
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IceTytanFang

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On the bright side, At least in europa universalis im more motivated to actually use my navy than in any other strategy game.
I disagree. Civ V, as inferior to EUIV as it is, does make navy more important than in EUIV. Hell, once in Civ V I turned a country into a 3rd world nation by taking half of their country with only 4 ships. Granted, they were already an entire era behind me, I still took more land than in EUIV with nothing but navy
 
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Stadhouder

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Naval manpower pool doesn't make sense in game mechanics, it would lead to dead spiral when you loose your fleet, while the current mechanics gives you more tradition if you loose a battle to prevent such a spiral. Also, how would you implement it in such a way that it is independent of number of provinces and population? The Dutch had quite a large fleet, their mercantile fleet as large as all other Europeans combined, even though they had a small population. I don't this happening and neither do I think think would add much to the game.
 

grommile

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I think that ZoC mechanics hurt naval pretty badly as forts practically lock naval landing forces in place ~
Depends on whether you're in a position to keep a transport stack parked in the coastal zone for a prolonged period.

If you are, then your navy lets you significantly circumvent zones of control, in much the same way that military access can on land.
 

PanosB3

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Opinions on things below? (Feedback more than appreciated)

1) Make oceans and seas play a role like rivers play in land warfare:

a) Add hurricanes or tropical storms (rare of course but still they do spice the game as a colonial country in the Caribbean) and perhaps you lose some of your fleet there? and you get a negative event on Caribbean colonial nations (-x % trade or something similar, plus revolt risk)
b Add mists that gives negative modifier to both sides (not really a naval combat expert I think -2 for maneuver? someone help here...)
c) Add negative modifiers for fighting naval battles near Iceland-arctic-Antarctica.

2) Ships in General:

a) Make 2 galleys=1 carrack? I know it sounds op for Mediterranean countries but if they ever do get into war with a country filled with carracks (like England, England will 9/10 times have 2x or 3x their navy.
b) As you tech up the new caravans (cant remember start-game name) should add troops you can carry (even a slight bonus so there is a actual need to upgrade them and you don't do it due to spare ducats etc)
c) Make each strait blockaded by a certain amount of ships, you cant expect me to believe a 10k from morocco or 10k ottomans cant pass Gibraltar or marmara (bad example compared to other one due to its size and geographical position but bear with me on this) because there's 1 ship of any kind, that is more than unrealistic.

3) Ships and Trade

a) All ships should be able to have a trade power (even minor) so that the small nations have a motive to make ships besides build 75% naval force limit for x reward (which they desperately need most times)
 

trojan1234

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I think that ZoC mechanics hurt naval pretty badly as forts practically lock naval landing forces in place ~

And god-forbid you merge/split your seige stack as you are now magically trapped.

IMO, fort ZoC makes naval supremacy more worth to have than before. Good example is any tag controlling Itaian pennisular. One need to seize more than 5 forts one by one from North to South without naval supremacy even if he has 10 times of armies on his side. However, the sieze time can be significantly reduced if naval supremacy allows him safely transport stacks here and there. No need to mention how much blockade helps taking down high level forts in late game.
 
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