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@Tombles

I need to know why laser tanks was nerfed. Please tell me.
I completely hate this nerf. At least let the Overcharge Laser Cannon keep its 9 range because that IS the main draw of it. Nerfing even the range boost is way overkill in my opinion.
Perhaps get rid of hyper armor in defense mode in exchange of letting it keep some of its damage? If no, then I would like to keep the range on the overcharge laser cannon at least now that most of the damage got deleted by making it affected by LOS/Cover.

  • Laser Tank ‘Laser Cannon’ - Decreased damage from 14 to 13
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased damage from 30 to 24
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased bypass armor from 5 to 2
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Now affected by Line of Sight and Cover
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Changed from ‘Full Action’ to ‘Single Action’
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased range from 9 to 7

 
@Tombles

I need to know why laser tanks was nerfed. Please tell me.
I completely hate this nerf. At least let the Overcharge Laser Cannon keep its 9 range because that IS the main draw of it. Nerfing even the range boost is way overkill in my opinion.
Perhaps get rid of hyper armor in defense mode in exchange of letting it keep some of its damage? If no, then I would like to keep the range on the overcharge laser cannon at least now that most of the damage got deleted by making it affected by LOS/Cover.

  • Laser Tank ‘Laser Cannon’ - Decreased damage from 14 to 13
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased damage from 30 to 24
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased bypass armor from 5 to 2
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Now affected by Line of Sight and Cover
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Changed from ‘Full Action’ to ‘Single Action’
  • Laser Tank ‘Overcharge Laser Cannon’ - Decreased range from 9 to 7

Idc, I liked those changes. They finally rebalanced useless walker and useful tank.

Tank was too good for the 1st t3 in the line, it covered all the demands of players and u needed no other units to be added to tanks monostacks. Except a monitor and a pair of pugs.

And if it appeared that you played against a promethean, those army composition lead you to autolose=)
 
Ok. We can start tomorrow at 9 a.m. (GMT) or later (i'm from Moscow). And I would like to know what fraction you will play for
What are the rules?
The rules are all listed on the server. You re welcome!
(Правила и все прочее - на сервере. Подтягивайся в матчмейкинг, я тебя ещё и с русской стимгруппой познакомлю для регулярного лайва)
 
@Tombles
Actually I am absolutely struck in the heart by devs attitude towards players shown right after the patch.
When at first we made topics on balance many times nobody even replied, but then came good changes.
This time a pair of wide and concrete explanations-and a direct dev team contact.
Now i'm not only loving your games. I'm LOVING each and every one in the dev team! Good job!

Glad I had my 2 cents in this.

Didn't I tell you that Triumphs devs are something of a rare breed in todays game industry? It's not pink-glasses, it's the truth. I first noticed how good the communication was when I was around AoW3 forums. Devs attitude and coolness is the second reason, after their games overall awasomness, for which I pre-ordered and play Planetfall in the first place...
 
These discussions and the hastily implemented changes show the high impact one very particular style of gameplay gets afforded with regards to balance changes. I hope you don' t give this the same leeway you did with AoW3, negatively impacting other playstyles, especially given that as in AoW3 it'll end as a balance mod anyway.

Taking the patch notes together it feels like a lot of things got a power reduction, not sure I like it. But these two I particularly dislike.

Kir’Ko
  • Hero Skill ‘Guiding Presence’ - Renamed to ‘Guiding Aura’
  • Hero Skill ‘Guiding Aura’ - Changed from map wide to 1 hex range and applies in an AoE of radius 1
Syndicate
  • Hero Skill ‘Keen Sight’ - Decreased Skill Point costs from 6 to 3
  • Hero Skill ‘Keen Sight’ - Changed Agile Overwatch to Superior Overwatch

Now I see how the particular environment of life MP, and the heavy focus on any particular aspect that has even a tiny advantage to give, make guiding presence a tiebreaker and as such game winner, I nonetheless lament the loss. It had a nice aspect of reweaving the shattered hivemind, felt like a worthwhile capstone ability and was in gamestyles not so focused on powerleveling heroes, when artillery was on the field, much less of an issue.

Similarly the keen sight changes might especialyl in an early game be quite a power boost, but it did what currently sadly few hero promotions do: significantly impact how the hero is used.

Both of these however are more part of the issue that hero advancement currently is quite lackluster. Besides basic stat upgrades and a few general buffs, the 8 more per hero is a bit anemic and limited. The fact that it caps at the rather raceable level 8 or 12, means the peak is quickly reached.
Have you thought about expanding hero skills both in breadth as well as in level range? How about bringing back something akin to the limited leveling from AoW: Shadow Magic?
 
Yep, hero skills could use some more work. The general hero progression isn't bad, there is a level of customization, but I think were are still not there yet. I think the main issue is sorta this bad scaling: early game you have hard time deciding becasue you usually can pick one or two skills at max, but you need like 5 to make a particular build to make sense (what I mean is that you either can go the buff your hero or buff your armies route, hard to go in-between if you don't want to be a jack-of-all-trades). Whereas later, after you finally manage to get those few important skills, your kinda left with picking skills just for the sake of it.

Maybe the simplest soulution would be if you could reset skill points? Or limiting the number of picks in early game? I already mentioned it some time ago, and I remember some solid ideas were brainstormed then.
 
I need to know why laser tanks was nerfed. Please tell me.

It's pretty much for the reason Satonir said! The Laser Tank was too good at too many things, we wanted it to be more of a close range thing with the walker more of along range thing.

Also:

I'm afraid we cannot really do any more balance things for this Hot Fix patch!

We have deadlines we need to meet with testing and things with our partners, so I'm afraid the deadline has been reached. We will obviously keep balancing things for the next update that we send out in a few months time.
 
It's pretty much for the reason Satonir said! The Laser Tank was too good at too many things, we wanted it to be more of a close range thing with the walker more of along range thing.

Also:

I'm afraid we cannot really do any more balance things for this Hot Fix patch!

We have deadlines we need to meet with testing and things with our partners, so I'm afraid the deadline has been reached. We will obviously keep balancing things for the next update that we send out in a few months time.

I see okay. I believe its a symptom of simply players battling each other on small maps though. Unless your play data test includes all the map sizes? Because on enormous maps that I play on has a tendency to have me rush into laser tank asap for safety. Its a unit that can help vanguard's core units hold the line against the angry AI, even more so when I have like four or five attacking me at same time because of my starting location, bad luck + makes things more entertaining.

The walker is simply too far into the research tree to be even remotely relevant early on. This is simply a matter of fact until both laser tanks and walker switch positions on tech tree but then we'll see complaints of walker spam. And requests to nerf walker's missiles.

I'm very very concerned now on vanguard's ability to blast the high threat targets and bring them down. It's the long ranged alpha strike that makes laser tanks rather valuable asset in a vanguard's army. I like now have to use operations to compensate for the loss of 9 range punch that laser tanks brought to help initiate the battle.

Walkers only become relevant after I observe the AI's behaviors and then apply them as needed simply because they come after laser tanks. I do build the walkers but the laser tanks is just simply available first. Plus I like tanks. I never cared much for gundam and mechwarrior things, I remember the mech warrior dark age i was the guy that always brought tanks + soldiers and never a single mech.

Edit: The walker changes seems to be quite nice though, Makes them a whole heckuva more mobile and willing to actually move instead of creeping slowly to use their missiles. Not sure about the damage nerf but i'll see.

As for Mora secundas, my original strategy for that map was to expand as much as possible while holding onto territory and then get laser tanks out to support my cores and it worked wonderfully. As of right now I will not want to replay that battle without the laser tank's punch. Too terrified of facing giant autonom stacks with powerful t4 units because walkers isn't available as quick as laser tanks.

As for promethean mismatch, the player made a bad strategic decision and paid for it with his defeat. Even then, a Vanguard player or anyone that has a t3 that uses thermal as main damage channel is naturally going to be at a disadvantage against a promethean player no matter what. Its just like how goblins' blight damage vs dreadnought in early days of aow3.
 
As for Mora secundas, my original strategy for that map was to expand as much as possible while holding onto territory and then get laser tanks out to support my cores and it worked wonderfully. As of right now I will not want to replay that battle without the laser tank's punch. Too terrified of facing giant autonom stacks with powerful t4 units because walkers isn't available as quick as laser tanks.

It's hard for me to tell what is the strategy with Vanguard for this map as I played with Kir'ko, but I assume different strategies are feasible.

I remember Laser Tank being said to be too powerful, so guess the nerfs addressed that. Unfortunately this kind of things are more impactful and persistent in MP games, so devs need to address them to keep multiplayer running (see Engulfer nerf). In SP it's only one way to beat a map, but in MP this might very well limit the options for players. At the end of the day it's multiplayer that decides about a game's longevity, like it or not (I'm a SP player myself so I tend to be biased, but I still need to respect some requests). I think if Laser Tanks were nerfed too much I'm sure devs will address that (if the subject is raised enough).
 
Sp, mp... Aow series is famous for its gameplay varieties. Ideally there should always be 2-5 Right and Proper options leading to victory in particular case. If they are less, game needs to get tweaked. Nerfing is the easiest way to deal w problem of overperformer strats, in which players are forced to chose one way bcz others are much worse
 
The new single action Overcharged Laser is only useful if you're advancing really far and don't have the action points to attack at least twice, which is a silly, niche utility.
If it had a lower cooldown then you could pair it with Sequential Kill System and have some use for it, but now it's just plain bad.
I have to agree that the Laser Tank is quite useless right now.

I mean, people are discussing whether the 60 HP, 5 Shields, 3x10 damage Amazon T2 unit is weak, while the 60 HP, 5 armor, 3x13 damage Vanguard T3 is ok?

Arborian Sentinel is supported by the -2 Biomancer Scan and its -2 Thermal is hardly as debilitating as the -2 Arc on Mechanical units. Apart from lowering damage resist (which both channels have access to) the worst that can happen to you with Thermal is Immolation, meanwhile Arc can stun and hijack your units on top of applying dot.
The tank, however, is immune to Bleed and Poison, but its armor is easily bypassed by Psi units changing damage channels. Sure, Sentinel's shield can also be bypassed, but it requires melee or luck with NPC factions, otherwise the best you have is -3 from the nerfed Firearms mod. Whether Armor or Shield is easier to outright strip is debatable, so I'll skip that.
Sentinel also has a slightly better defense mode, Overwatch and enjoys rapid movement on Forest hexes.
Then we also have ways to counter their weaknesses, in which I believe the Sentinel has an advantage as Promethean tech gives it a wider variety of protection than the Tank enjoys with any easily accessible resist source.

Overall, if we call it a draw defense wise, Vanguard pay more production, energy, research and 20 extra cosmite to produce a unit that does 3 more damage per hit than an Amazon T2.

You didn't need to heavily nerf the tank to balance out the Walker boost.
 
Didn't they nerf one ability and reduced the seconds damage a bit? I mean, the unit still profits from various mechanical bonuses like "Networked" (+1 range and +2 Arc resistance at level 3) etc... I don't believe Sentinel has these many options?
 
I see okay. I believe its a symptom of simply players battling each other on small maps though. Unless your play data test includes all the map sizes? Because on enormous maps that I play on has a tendency to have me rush into laser tank asap for safety. Its a unit that can help vanguard's core units hold the line against the angry AI, even more so when I have like four or five attacking me at same time because of my starting location, bad luck + makes things more entertaining.

The walker is simply too far into the research tree to be even remotely relevant early on. This is simply a matter of fact until both laser tanks and walker switch positions on tech tree but then we'll see complaints of walker spam. And requests to nerf walker's missiles.

I'm very very concerned now on vanguard's ability to blast the high threat targets and bring them down. It's the long ranged alpha strike that makes laser tanks rather valuable asset in a vanguard's army. I like now have to use operations to compensate for the loss of 9 range punch that laser tanks brought to help initiate the battle.

Walkers only become relevant after I observe the AI's behaviors and then apply them as needed simply because they come after laser tanks. I do build the walkers but the laser tanks is just simply available first. Plus I like tanks. I never cared much for gundam and mechwarrior things, I remember the mech warrior dark age i was the guy that always brought tanks + soldiers and never a single mech.

Edit: The walker changes seems to be quite nice though, Makes them a whole heckuva more mobile and willing to actually move instead of creeping slowly to use their missiles. Not sure about the damage nerf but i'll see.

As for Mora secundas, my original strategy for that map was to expand as much as possible while holding onto territory and then get laser tanks out to support my cores and it worked wonderfully. As of right now I will not want to replay that battle without the laser tank's punch. Too terrified of facing giant autonom stacks with powerful t4 units because walkers isn't available as quick as laser tanks.

As for promethean mismatch, the player made a bad strategic decision and paid for it with his defeat. Even then, a Vanguard player or anyone that has a t3 that uses thermal as main damage channel is naturally going to be at a disadvantage against a promethean player no matter what. Its just like how goblins' blight damage vs dreadnought in early days of aow3.

I mean, it sounds like instead of just getting the One Broken Unit and just winning now you need to actually use all the tools that are given to you. That seems like much better balance in my mind.
 
Didn't they nerf one ability and reduced the seconds damage a bit? I mean, the unit still profits from various mechanical bonuses like "Networked" (+1 range and +2 Arc resistance at level 3) etc... I don't believe Sentinel has these many options?
Its secondary is useless now with the damage, armor penetration, range and effective accuracy decrease.

I already explained that I'm not taking into account NPC factions because their perks aren't easily accessible. You aren't guaranteed to stumble upon the faction you need unless you edit the scenario rules to benefit your race specifically.
Additionally, some of the NPC faction benefits that are available to other units can't be applied to units like the tank.

I would like to add that I'm not a big fan of just how much of a boost Autonom gives to mechanical/cyborg units while it is up to chance whether you'll encounter them.

I mean, it sounds like instead of just getting the One Broken Unit and just winning now you need to actually use all the tools that are given to you. That seems like much better balance in my mind.
I guess your idea of balance is rendering an unit useless?
 
It's far from useless; it's just not able to win you a game the second you unlock it. The Laser Tank's primary attack is extremely strong, it has excellent defensive stats plus the AOE obscure ability, and while the secondary attack is no longer The Best Sniper Shot it now allows the tank to be much more aggressive about moving forward since you don't lose much offensive output by doing so. You can't just play off from halfway across the map and alpha strike, you have to push and use the tank as a tank to attract fire and deal consistent damage from medium range. If you want to play a bit more standoff, you still can - it just requires that you plan ahead and bring some Engineers.

When I see someone say "I like now have to use operations to compensate for the loss of 9 range punch that laser tanks brought to help initiate the battle" that's working as designed in my opinion. You shouldn't win battles at equal-ish strength without needing to reach into the toolbox for some operations. Tactical fights should be a challenge!
 
I guess your idea of balance is rendering an unit useless?

I think the strenght of the game comes from the fact that there aren't "useless" units in it. At least that's how I feel. Before the buff people said Walker was useless. The same was said about Drone Carrier pre-buff. Imo the only problem with some units is that you get acess to them much later so there needs to be something to compensate for it.
 
It's far from useless; it's just not able to win you a game the second you unlock it. The Laser Tank's primary attack is extremely strong, it has excellent defensive stats plus the AOE obscure ability, and while the secondary attack is no longer The Best Sniper Shot it now allows the tank to be much more aggressive about moving forward since you don't lose much offensive output by doing so. You can't just play off from halfway across the map and alpha strike, you have to push and use the tank as a tank to attract fire and deal consistent damage from medium range. If you want to play a bit more standoff, you still can - it just requires that you plan ahead and bring some Engineers.

When I see someone say "I like now have to use operations to compensate for the loss of 9 range punch that laser tanks brought to help initiate the battle" that's working as designed in my opinion. You shouldn't win battles at equal-ish strength without needing to reach into the toolbox for some operations. Tactical fights should be a challenge!

Concerning the colored part:
Arborian Sentinels have pretty mediocre damage, if you take them along you're sacrificing other things in order for that +3 shields. They have HP, but their defense stats are only mediocre otherwise and they don't take cover.

I stand by my initial analysis.
 
Concerning the colored part:


I stand by my initial analysis.

What? The laser tank has +3 damage and +3 defensive stats over the Arborian Sentinel. I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

The only thing I can think that you're trying to say is that the Arborian should only be considered when it's applied the +3 shields to itself - which I guess I can understand, but at that point it's not acting as a support unit but solely as a tanky blocker with mediocre damage and a situational movement restricting CC. The Arborian Sentinel still just has 2 raw defense stats otherwise, which is at best average across the T2s. The Laser Tank has 5 defense without sacrificing anything, and in fact can stack that defense with it's obscuring cloud for even more survivability. It's a strictly stronger unit in basically every way; all it loses is a bit of flexibility on it's active defense ability, and a swap from CC to an armor-ignoring, mobile single-action secondary attack.