Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Dev Diary #65: The Oathbound Faction

Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Dev Diary #65: The Oathbound Faction

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RMan89

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With a ranged faction? Deinitely. But given how accuracy usually isn't a problem with melee, it's kinda there (I presume) to cover more ground for those few ranged attacks options, which is to manage to hit in the first place, to make more of their attacks count when there's a smaller window of them getting attacks in since the other units will need to reach melee. Or those occasions where accuracy debuffs are used. It'll be curious how it may play with certain NPC factions or that option to go Seer build.

Just a guess. There's several tools they're given that are insanely good taken out of context, particularly the Seers, but I'm sure to make a very heavy melee faction work you need these to cover a very big weakness and give you the tools to strategically work around them.
Then I wouldn't want to be in the skin of someone who's up against Oathbound mixed with, let's say, Vanguard who rely on ranged weapons. Then I believe this would really be a death sentence, unless I'm missing something here. However I get a feeling, that a single Seer unit with Fatalism combined with a bunch of ranged units, could really mess up at least a key unit in an enemy stack. I wonder how this will workout.
 
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mbuh

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Especially when they still have so many overlapping themes with the vanguard.

I would have like to see something more unique as a new faction.
To understand why the dev choose this, you have to go back way into the past.

The oathbound is certainly space archons, the vanguard is space human. Back then in AoW 1 and 2, there are both human and archon, by your point of view, these two races are overlapping. But if you actually play them, try to feel the immersion, human and archon is very different. I cannot say that it will be the same with the vanguard and oathbound because obviously none of us have played with it yet, but i have a feeling they will be similar to human and archon in that they are different as in not overlapping. Aside from them, worthy of mention is the azracs, this too are offshoots of human, yet they are different.
 
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The Numi

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Then I wouldn't want to be in the skin of someone who's up against Oathbound mixed with, let's say, Vanguard who rely on ranged weapons. Then I believe this would really be a death sentence, unless I'm missing something here. However I get a feeling, that a single Seer unit with Fatalism combined with a bunch of ranged units, could really mess up at least a key unit in an enemy stack. I wonder how this will workout.
It's hard to truly say, it's just my opinion but I'm not a particularly skilled player either. Thinking more on it it may not be that insane for ranged. However what I noticed is the debuff remove all resistances which I think may be the more powerful thing to consider.

Depending on what you play, accuracy may not always be a problem (nor add to that much) so it's more a nice bonus, but able to consistently apply any effects to units with high resistances may be what makes it more powerful later on, and not necessarily unit deleting powerful, but if you do it right you can negate a fairly powerful unit from the enemy's side from acting.

To understand why the dev choose this, you have to go back way into the past.

The oathbound is certainly space archons, the vanguard is space human. Back then in AoW 1 and 2, there are both human and archon, by your point of view, these two races are overlapping. But if you actually play them, try to feel the immersion, human and archon is very different. I cannot say that it will be the same with the vanguard and oathbound because obviously none of us have played with it yet, but i have a feeling they will be similar to human and archon in that they are different as in not overlapping. Aside from them, worthy of mention is the azracs, this too are offshoots of human, yet they are different.
I mean, I can understand where they're getting at. If we only had Vanguard and now got Oathbound, I'd fully agree, but we've also got Amazons and Syndicate. Dvar and Assembly, whilst originally human (and Dvar just shorter humans), I'd feel they're distinct enough. Amazons, whilst they're sorta meant to cover muscular elves in a way, are still mostly just big muscular human women, but I'd still say they're also unique enough like Dvar. Dvar just get an edge due to we never seeing them outside their suit and you can easily forget what they are.

Syndicate however, whilst you can be blue skinned, are pretty much a human faction, a more sci-fi one compared to Vanguard. So then you got normal bit futuristic military humans, sci-fi/advanced tech humans and then Oathbound, which are extreme sci-fi/advance tech humans. So kinda cake on a cake with the last one, such as there were humans and archons, but also something inbetween or above archons.

Then the fact in the paladin aspirant's lore snippet it suggests to have lots of Vanguard members in it (as opposed to Syndicate which makes it more clear it's its own isolated faction and society, although there could be Vanguard indentured) who seems to agree Oathbound is better than Vanguard, whilst there doesn't seem to be any big lore hints about anyone going from Vanguard to Syndicate or vice versa, as far as I know.

Whilst you can imagine that in smaller instances, the human factions may have members switching sides, such as someone in Vanguard may choose "heck, becoming a cyborg sounds great!" and join Assembly, but they're small enough to not be mentioned much. Whilst Oathbound makes it clear it makes up of members from another faction as its backbone, enough that it's a unit's lore, and I do kinda wish myself it'd been more clear it was its own separate human isolated society until now and it'd be too soon for anyone to switch over, rather than appearing almost as if this is an evolution of Vanguard after time, even if it isn't.

But that's my only pet peeve so far and their campaign could reflect more light on it, otherwise I love the faction and got little to no problem them being human.
 
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mbuh

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I mean, I can understand where they're getting at. If we only had Vanguard and now got Oathbound, I'd fully agree, but we've also got Amazons and Syndicate. Dvar and Assembly, whilst originally human (and Dvar just shorter humans), I'd feel they're distinct enough. Amazons, whilst they're sorta meant to cover muscular elves in a way, are still mostly just big muscular human women, but I'd still say they're also unique enough like Dvar. Dvar just get an edge due to we never seeing them outside their suit and you can easily forget what they are.

Syndicate however, whilst you can be blue skinned, are pretty much a human faction, a more sci-fi one compared to Vanguard. So then you got normal bit futuristic military humans, sci-fi/advanced tech humans and then Oathbound, which are extreme sci-fi/advance tech humans. So kinda cake on a cake with the last one, such as there were humans and archons, but also something inbetween or above archons.

Then the fact in the paladin aspirant's lore snippet it suggests to have lots of Vanguard members in it (as opposed to Syndicate which makes it more clear it's its own isolated faction and society, although there could be Vanguard indentured) who seems to agree Oathbound is better than Vanguard, whilst there doesn't seem to be any big lore hints about anyone going from Vanguard to Syndicate or vice versa, as far as I know.

Whilst you can imagine that in smaller instances, the human factions may have members switching sides, such as someone in Vanguard may choose "heck, becoming a cyborg sounds great!" and join Assembly, but they're small enough to not be mentioned much. Whilst Oathbound makes it clear it makes up of members from another faction as its backbone, enough that it's a unit's lore, and I do kinda wish myself it'd been more clear it was its own separate human isolated society until now and it'd be too soon for anyone to switch over, rather than appearing almost as if this is an evolution of Vanguard after time, even if it isn't.

But that's my only pet peeve so far and their campaign could reflect more light on it, otherwise I love the faction and got little to no problem them being human.

Well, same thing can be said with their root origin, they are based on their fantasy counterpart, not direct and exact type of basing obviously, this is the original idea of the dev, they want to essentially make age of wonders in space, but it need a seasoning that make it a distinct series, thus result in races we have today.

Back to the past, even in their fantasy counterpart, the draconian is a modified human (through magic, the wizard, which can be regarded as scientist combine human and dragon, resulting in hybrid), no different than terratech human who use science (bioengineering) to make them amazon. I forgot the origin of halfling. The azrac is just other race of human. The lizardmen is created too, not many information on specifically how, at least its sci fi counterpart the shakarn seems naturally evolved (not created through magical or scientific experiment) for now.
 

Mzimoxs

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Will the old races get updates? New mechanics and features., like CA does with Total War: Warhammer. They feel outdated and obsolete compared to the cooler newer factions.
It's a general problem that new stuff always seems to outshine the old. I understand it, but I don't really agree. We know and have been playing those older factions for a year now, so of course they are no longer that fascinating and feel "familiar". But imagine we had the Oathbound from the start and only now they added the Amazons. I'm pretty sure we would all be excited over an all female race that heavily specializes in animals and mounted units.
 
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Cainist

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It's a general problem that new stuff always seems to outshine the old. I understand it, but I don't really agree. We know and have been playing those older factions for a year now, so of course they are no longer that fascinating and feel "familiar". But imagine we had the Oathbound from the start and only now they added the Amazons. I'm pretty sure we would all be excited over an all female race that heavily specializes in animals and mounted units.
Maybe not the best example as Amazons recently got a pretty interesting rework.
 

FerrokenFibrous

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Honestly, none of the Planetfall DLCs and patches ever felt like they had any actual powercreep to me, not even this one.

The Seers' RNG manipulation sounds strong on paper and everyone kinda wishes the other races had something to spice up their own Heroes similar to the Colony Lord mechanic, but they seem particularly squishy at least in the early game (granted you could say the same for all other races but at least they're all mostly capable of taking cover with most of their early ground units) and arc is surprisingly one of the most heavily resisted damage types in the game, they're likely gonna struggle against arc resistant factions and marauders more so than Syndicate until they get the Seer-buffing doctrine or make heavier use of NPC and off-race units.
 

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Instead of being humans the oathbound could once have been administrative A.I.s independent of CORE. As such they still analysed data of hundreths of Planets and the social developments of thousands of years. They then want to use this data to recreate a new society, under the assumption they know better what to do due to their data sets. Making it a zeroth law rebellion (A robot rebellion with benefical intend by the robots)
But instead of total control ala CORE they manipulate you only so slightly, that you follow their plans without realizing. And if you diverge, they form corrective measures.
Then you wouldn't be playing the Oathbound but the Imago Dei of Stars Without Number :)

I don't see where the Oathbound and the Vanguard are overlapping. Both are militaristic? So are all the factions. They are humans? So are the Amazon, Syndicate, Assembly and technically the Dvar. All the factions, except the Sharkan are remnants of the Star Union. Can someone explain to me why people see them as overlapping with the Vanguard. Or is that people wants for them to have some defect because people wanted a more alien faction? :confused:
 
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sykall

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Then you wouldn't be playing the Oathbound but the Imago Dei of Stars Without Number :)

I don't see where the Oathbound and the Vanguard are overlapping. Both are militaristic? So are all the factions. They are humans? So are the Amazon, Syndicate, Assembly and technically the Dvar. All the factions, except the Sharkan are remnants of the Star Union. Can someone explain to me why people see them as overlapping with the Vanguard. Or is that people wants for them to have some defect because people wanted a more alien faction? :confused:
The robot thing was just a spontanious idea.

Otherwise I think it is a matter of Personal perspectives.
You are right, that the amazons, syndicate dvar etc. Are all human to a certain extend. And this itself is not a problem.
Because all these factions have different biological and sociological backgrounds. Dvar are staunch survivalist needed to adapt to inhospitable Planets. The assembly wereva failed weapon programm that had to reassemble itself during the star unions fall. The amazons used genetic engineering to integreate themselves in alien ecosystems.
But vanguard and oathbound are both regular humans.
The other human factions have different end goals. The dvar want to enrich themselves, the syndicate wants to rule the worlds as a new noble class etc.
But both vanguard and oathbound want to recreate the Star Union as their main goal.
And whilst all of them are militaristic to a certain degree, both vanguard and oathbound value heroism in battle and focus for example.

If they would share one of these exemplary aspects it would not matter.
But adding all these aspects together makes the oathbound appear as another version of the vanguard to me personally.

To give an relative example: a faction based on medival india and a faction based on medival france are very different in many aspects, despite being pure humans.
But to me personally vanguard and oathbound look more like a 12th france faction and a 15th france faction placed next to each other.
Or like one faction being based on gondor and the other on arnor, if you want a fantasy example.

Of course this is just my opinion. I do not want to talk the faction bad before release. But after the sharkarn were very creative, and other factions followed basic scifi tropes with cool little twists, I hoped to see something similar for the next dlc faction. And if you think oathbound and vanguard are different enough, I do not want to convince you otherwise. But maybe you unterstand my point of view now.
 
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Loules

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But vanguard and oathbound are both regular humans.
The other human factions have different end goals. The dvar want to enrich themselves, the syndicate wants to rule the worlds as a new noble class etc.
But both vanguard and oathbound want to recreate the Star Union as their main goal.
Vanguard is a faction left over from the mobile forces of the Star Alliance. They do not have particularly noble aspirations: yes, part of the Vanguard has turned into protective troops, but many have gone rogue or are just pursuing their own goals. There are many people in the Vanguard with a dark past and even (former) criminals. In addition, the Vanguard does not have a special store of knowledge - they have the standard knowledge inherent in the creators of forward bases, army forces and colonizers.
Oathbound is at the same time based on the "Archive" Planet, where the most diverse knowledge and technology of the Star Alliance is present. In terms of state structure and management, as well as military technology, they are head and shoulders above the Vanguard, but lack the numbers and general military training of the Vanguard. They are like good-natured feudal-like "Institute" - organization from Fallout 4.
 
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Draxynnic

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Whilst you can imagine that in smaller instances, the human factions may have members switching sides, such as someone in Vanguard may choose "heck, becoming a cyborg sounds great!" and join Assembly, but they're small enough to not be mentioned much. Whilst Oathbound makes it clear it makes up of members from another faction as its backbone, enough that it's a unit's lore, and I do kinda wish myself it'd been more clear it was its own separate human isolated society until now and it'd be too soon for anyone to switch over, rather than appearing almost as if this is an evolution of Vanguard after time, even if it isn't.
Syndicate absolutely WILL Indenture Vanguard if they get the opportunity - happens once in the campaign, and there's another point in the campaign where it's implied by a Syndicate commande gloating over how Vanguard are easy to manipulate. Most Assembly will Reassemble anyone they get their claws on. There are references to Amazons recruiting women from non-Amazon populations. Even Shakarn can technically switch to another faction by adopting a role, and anyone can become Shakarn by realising that they were one of them all along.

So such migration between 'races' doesn't seem to be all that uncommon, and it's entirely likely that at least some cases where you use the 'migrate' option are cases of transforming some or all of the existing population.

Well, same thing can be said with their root origin, they are based on their fantasy counterpart, not direct and exact type of basing obviously, this is the original idea of the dev, they want to essentially make age of wonders in space, but it need a seasoning that make it a distinct series, thus result in races we have today.

Back to the past, even in their fantasy counterpart, the draconian is a modified human (through magic, the wizard, which can be regarded as scientist combine human and dragon, resulting in hybrid), no different than terratech human who use science (bioengineering) to make them amazon. I forgot the origin of halfling. The azrac is just other race of human. The lizardmen is created too, not many information on specifically how, at least its sci fi counterpart the shakarn seems naturally evolved (not created through magical or scientific experiment) for now.
Draconians were dragon hatchlings made to grow into a humanoid shape (and, more importantly, given the more rapid generational cycle of humanoids) by magic in order to make them more effective soldiers. I don't recall there ever being an indication that they were actually melded with any specific race. Certainly, though, dragons were the starting point.

Halflings are one of the 'fey' races. What precisely this means has never been spelled out, but they have been described as being related to elves.

Azracs... somewhat resemble humans, and could interbreed with humans (but, hey, fantasy world), but I don't think anyone in-universe regarded them as being humans (even an offshoot) until they did so interbreed and essentially create a race of Azrac/human crossbreeds. They appear to have been made in Yaka's image who, as it happens, looks human. What is he actually, though? We don't know, although we do know that he despises humans.

Lizardmen were the chosen of Nimue, but she didn't seem to have the ability to simply recreate them anew after she drowned them in a fit of rage. Of course, she is notoriously fickle, so while she seems to have been remorseful for wiping them out, she may just have decided to do something different rather than trying again.
 
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mbuh

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Draconians were dragon hatchlings made to grow into a humanoid shape (and, more importantly, given the more rapid generational cycle of humanoids) by magic in order to make them more effective soldiers. I don't recall there ever being an indication that they were actually melded with any specific race. Certainly, though, dragons were the starting point.

Halflings are one of the 'fey' races. What precisely this means has never been spelled out, but they have been described as being related to elves.

Azracs... somewhat resemble humans, and could interbreed with humans (but, hey, fantasy world), but I don't think anyone in-universe regarded them as being humans (even an offshoot) until they did so interbreed and essentially create a race of Azrac/human crossbreeds. They appear to have been made in Yaka's image who, as it happens, looks human. What is he actually, though? We don't know, although we do know that he despises humans.

Lizardmen were the chosen of Nimue, but she didn't seem to have the ability to simply recreate them anew after she drowned them in a fit of rage. Of course, she is notoriously fickle, so while she seems to have been remorseful for wiping them out, she may just have decided to do something different rather than trying again.
Although regarding totally new race vs offshoot that some people are discussing here, what i want to convey is not everyone have the same definition regarding that. Me for example, i don't regard any race as purely non offshoot if they naturally existed or evolved (like for example the shakarn in planetfall, or the elves in previous AoW series). One can regard the draconians as an offshoot of dragons in light of such definition. I mean in previous AoW series, most of the races can be regarded as offshoot anyway, as that series are what the new series (planetfall) are quite based on, planetfall having races that are often offshoot of another is quite normal, at least for me, because again originality is somewhat a relative definition for each individual. I mean it's just a matter of perspective, for some individuals originality is about distinctive, for others it's about the origin, as can be guessed i'm among the latter.
 
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Ridixo

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But both vanguard and oathbound want to recreate the Star Union as their main goal.
That is something i am not sure. Vanguard's commanders may want to bring back a new union, but Oathbound are lead by the seers. They got a whole planet of historical archives and simulation systems. They learned to make psychohistory and predict future with them. Them they use that to create the Oathbound. Vanguard is the past, Oathbound are new. And the Star Union fell, so why would the seers invest effort in making again something they already know that failed? The Vanguard may want to re-create the Star Union as it was; The Oathbound would create a Star Union just in brand, in name, it wpuld be something new. A new system to avert another cataclysm :)

And whilst all of them are militaristic to a certain degree, both vanguard and oathbound value heroism in battle and focus for example.
And that is something that bugs me. The Vanguard really got that spartan military proud. But since the Oathbound have been shaped by the Seers could be that the whole system is a way to keep people in line? They exalt common people with virtues like duty, valor and loyalty by giving them their own gundam. But it could be a way to keep them in check by creating the idea of a fair system where common people is important. To give an example think of the underhanded, scheming Syndicate leading the militaristic, common and virtuous Vanguards. Nobility at the bottom with extra loyalty to prevent insurrections, while the high ranks are full of manipulators that only want their own goals :(
This could be the case. In which case i would like the Seers even more :D
 
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Snorro Soliman

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Well, same thing can be said with their root origin, they are based on their fantasy counterpart, not direct and exact type of basing obviously, this is the original idea of the dev, they want to essentially make age of wonders in space, but it need a seasoning that make it a distinct series, thus result in races we have today.

Back to the past, even in their fantasy counterpart, the draconian is a modified human (through magic, the wizard, which can be regarded as scientist combine human and dragon, resulting in hybrid), no different than terratech human who use science (bioengineering) to make them amazon. I forgot the origin of halfling. The azrac is just other race of human. The lizardmen is created too, not many information on specifically how, at least its sci fi counterpart the shakarn seems naturally evolved (not created through magical or scientific experiment) for now.
That is something i am not sure. Vanguard's commanders may want to bring back a new union, but Oathbound are lead by the seers. They got a whole planet of historical archives and simulation systems. They learned to make psychohistory and predict future with them. Them they use that to create the Oathbound. Vanguard is the past, Oathbound are new. And the Star Union fell, so why would the seers invest effort in making again something they already know that failed? The Vanguard may want to re-create the Star Union as it was; The Oathbound would create a Star Union just in brand, in name, it wpuld be something new. A new system to avert another cataclysm :)



And that is something that bugs me. The Vanguard really got that spartan military proud. But since the Oathbound have been shaped by the Seers could be that the whole system is a way to keep people in line? They exalt common people with virtues like duty, valor and loyalty by giving them their own gundam. But it could be a way to keep them in check by creating the idea of a fair system where common people is important. To give an example think of the underhanded, scheming Syndicate leading the militaristic, common and virtuous Vanguards. Nobility at the bottom with extra loyalty to prevent insurrections, while the high ranks are full of manipulators that only want their own goals :(
This could be the case. In which case i would like the Seers even more :D

I agree with the distinction between Vangaurd and the Oathbound and suggest a further distinction.

The Vanguard are proud military professionals, with the spirit of frontiersmen. They like the simple life, freedom and professionalism. Heroism is a part of this, but not its overriding focus. For the Vanguard, life, liberty and personal freedom is paramount.
The Vanguard are soldiers first.

For the Oathbound, society shouldn't be built on personal whims or ethics, but shaped according to the insight of the wise Seers. The people are subject to Lords and Ladies, who form a class of martial heroes protecting their holdings. The Seers (or ORACLE) guide them in turn. Obedience, personal bravery and a sense if chivalry rule their actions.
The Oathbound are warriors.

edited for spelling and to add my reply to the mbuh qoute(fell away on my phone,sorry!):
I agree it is seasoning added to make AOW in Space. However Sci-fi offers more room (compared to fantasy) to explore the 'prime movers' behind races and units. I think Ttriumphs ' show, don't tell' approach really shines here. Where the Archons where sort of a ' lawfull good built-in' kinda deal, deriving their morals and rightnousness from their divine origin, the Oathbound follow a vast, sentient (and presumably benevolent) AI which communicates only through a specific class of people in their society (I wonder if this will be a plot point in the campaing... 'is the priest God, or does he merely speaks for him'...can you tell the difference?).
Following the Seers thus becomes moral, opposing them unwise, or evil. The ' lawfull-goodness' is now not built in, but a consciousness choice, where responsibility and decisions are left to Oracle and its seers, with an absolute faith in the knowledge that ORACLE will ultimately be right.
The genius is that you dont need to play the campaing to figure this out. The unit blurps, tech descriptions and even abilities already help the player get a good sense of a faction's character.
 
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mbuh

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edited for spelling and to add my reply to the mbuh qoute(fell away on my phone,sorry!):
I agree it is seasoning added to make AOW in Space. However Sci-fi offers more room (compared to fantasy) to explore the 'prime movers' behind races and units. I think Ttriumphs ' show, don't tell' approach really shines here. Where the Archons where sort of a ' lawfull good built-in' kinda deal, deriving their morals and rightnousness from their divine origin, the Oathbound follow a vast, sentient (and presumably benevolent) AI which communicates only through a specific class of people in their society (I wonder if this will be a plot point in the campaing... 'is the priest God, or does he merely speaks for him'...can you tell the difference?).
Following the Seers thus becomes moral, opposing them unwise, or evil. The ' lawfull-goodness' is now not built in, but a consciousness choice, where responsibility and decisions are left to Oracle and its seers, with an absolute faith in the knowledge that ORACLE will ultimately be right.
The genius is that you dont need to play the campaing to figure this out. The unit blurps, tech descriptions and even abilities already help the player get a good sense of a faction's character.

Yes it will provide interesting background story for oathbound.

I wonder whether the AI is actually a grail itself. I really hope that the ai is actually an ordinary ai who gain sentience by being merged with a grail in time long forgotten, and i hope the ai origin is not from star union but from other galaxy or even other dimensions
 
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BBShockwave

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Sounds pretty awesome. Seems like they will be fun to play and especially useful for a Heritor Lord, given the entropy mods. Curious how well an army composed of mostly melee units with ranged support works.
And yeah they remind me a lot of basically being Archons in space.
I had the same feeling! Great inspiration
The Seers certainly seem like being a weaponized version of Hari Seldon's Foundation. :D
 

Luke_Falcon

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After watching the stream I'm kinda wary about Curse of Fatalism: 3 turn cooldown to ensure an enemy unit is hit by every attack and affected by every malus for two turns sounds really powerful. I understand that Oathbound are mostly melee and some weak range units, but what's stopping you from getting range NPC units or units from other races? Even in the stream, Tom mentioned that the paragon soldiers have a chance to stun when overcharged and with fatalism, the stun is ensured. This can easily stop a tier IV unit for a few turns with a Tier I unit.
 

mbuh

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After watching the stream I'm kinda wary about Curse of Fatalism: 3 turn cooldown to ensure an enemy unit is hit by every attack and affected by every malus for two turns sounds really powerful. I understand that Oathbound are mostly melee and some weak range units, but what's stopping you from getting range NPC units or units from other races? Even in the stream, Tom mentioned that the paragon soldiers have a chance to stun when overcharged and with fatalism, the stun is ensured. This can easily stop a tier IV unit for a few turns with a Tier I unit.
My impression about it is unsure right now, again without playing it myself, this is all just my speculation.

While the ability is very good, the downside is you have to bring a support units. The augur itself is weak combat wise, even with the late game doctrine they are mediocre at best (combatwise). This means the augur is more of pure support support unit, which means units such as these are not meant to be massed. Based on what AoW series gameplay mechanic so far, especially 3, there are units that are not meant to be massed and there are those who are very good when massed. In a battle between armies or stacks who bring too many units that are not meant to be massed just to use their very good support ability to support their more combat oriented brethren against stacks whose massed units are more combat oriented dominant, the latter often win. What i want to emphasize is units such as augur must be paired in the right balance with other more combat oriented units, if the balance is off, then the augur actually is the reason of defeat instead of victory. There are some variety of examples, although i assume it will be less problematic against stacks whose units are predominantly close to mid ranged units, especially if they are not supported by their own support units. Again this is just a speculation, but i'm always smelling the trap when i see units like this in AoW games.
 
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