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FangirlCrazily

Second Lieutenant
Community Ambassador
Feb 7, 2023
107
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PatchUpdates_Banner_Wolf-Update-2.png


Ferocious Godir,

I regret to inform you that I was forced to leave after the pack of Lupine discovered I was nothing more than a Halfling in a wolf's coat. Since then I’ve come across a herd of Goatkin, having a picnic in a lush field. These marvelous creatures seem to have a particular taste for nature. I’ve seen whole Trees being consumed without as much as a drop of sweat.

Today’s update, which comes slightly off schedule, aims to tackle some of the feedback we’ve received following the release of Primal Fury and the Wolf Update. Most importantly we’ve decided, after reading through the feedback and looking at what we want from the hero system, to remove the Leadership Clash. We will revisit this later on as part of a bigger look at the roles heroes play in armies and how they develop.

May your Pantheons thrive

Game Version: 1.006.003.91033




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  • Removed the Leadership Clash
  • Implemented AI Hero Recruitment Cooldown
    • The cooldown scales based on the difficulty settings for that individual AI. From 5 Turns on Very Easy to 1 Turn on Very Hard.
  • The Conjure Primal Animal spells will now only appear as research after you completed your first Tome of Magic

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AI
  • Fixed issue where the AI would not always commit to a conquering a city after the walls has been breached

Art
  • Fixed an issue with incorrect Lighting being used in Events

Units & Animations
  • Fixed an issue with Animation Blending on Mounted Ranged abilities
  • Fixed an issue with Vertex Explosions occurring when using Melee abilities on certain Mounts
  • Fixed an issue where Avian Zombie’s would not have legs
  • Fixed a bald spot on the Sun Priest
  • Fixed an issue where Serena has two faces
  • Fixed clipping issues on Primal Outfits

Enchantments & Transformations
  • Fixed an issue where Gaia’s Chosen not be visually affected by burn
  • Fixed an issue with Gaia’s Chosen Helmet Clipping
  • Fixed an issue where the glow from Linked Minds was applied to the hair
  • Fixed Wing Size issues with the Draconian Transformation
  • Fixed an issue with the Tyrant Knight Unit Icon while being Naga Transformed
  • Fixed an issue where Supergrowth did not increase Head Size
  • Fixed an issue where the Hero Overview could not properly show Heroes with Supergrowth/Ancient of Earth

Faction Content

  • Fixed an issue where Crocodiles, Mammoth and Elephants Hero Mounts did not have the correct movement.
  • Fixed an issue where, once built, a province couldn’t be swapped to a Farm if the player has Desolate Adaptation or is of the Sabertooth Primal Culture.
  • Fixed an issue where Army Race Customization was not getting saved properly
  • Fixed an issue where the Dragon Ruler Affinity would not resolve correctly

Item Forge
  • Fixed an issue with Polearms in the Item Forge allowing Giant Slayer Infusion while they already have Giant Slayer inherently.
  • Fixed an issue with the Blowgun, Crossbow and Bow in the Item Forge not having the correct preferred attack.
  • Fixed an issue where Item Forge and premade Staves were not getting the correct damage channels.

Interface
  • Disabled the Log Out button while inside of a Multiplayer Session
  • Fixed an issue where Misc Items would always select the first slot
  • Fixed an issue where you could open the Mage Haven info panel on controller while hovering over pantheon heroes that could not be edited.
  • Fixed a crash that could sometimes occur when entering the Create a Bounty panel when there is a Beacon of Unity bounty target.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur due to the Quest Overview remaining open.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when an outpost was being converted to a city but a player would have the city interface open.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur while keeping the city interface open at the start of a new turn
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when the quest overview was being updated while the panel was obscured/hidden.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when the quest overview would remain open but hidden if the “Create a Bounty” sub panel was open when clicking a notification/opening a different panel.

Hero Skills
  • Fixed an issue where having the Avatar of Primal Animal would remove Primal Communion if you are a Wizard King or a Dragon Lord.
  • Fixed an issue where Crossbows did not benefit from Searing Weapons

Multiplayer
  • Fixed an issue where the game could get stuck without a combat result screen after replaying the same combat twice.
  • Fixed a common crash when combat ends and the world map is out of sync.

Pantheon
  • Fixed an issue where realms using Presence Traits that add additional cities would all be named Flotsam.
  • Fixed an issue where Ascended Rulers would sometimes get linked up to the wrong default ruler causing them to receive incorrect (visual) settings.
  • Fixed an issue where Ascended default Rulers would not always receive an Ascension trait.
  • Fixed an issue where it was not possible to delete a Ascended Ruler if they were invalid
  • Fixed an issue where the Main Menu would not be visible after a completed game fails to save to the Pantheon
  • Fixed an issue where Pantheon Realms would appear as a Unlockable Reward
  • Fixed an issue where the quest line for the Frozen Realm Frost Queen would not trigger.

Spells
  • Fixed an issue where Unleash Beast would not give the Berserk status effect properly
  • Fixed an issue where Desecrate Structure would not stop if the province was razed or the city changed owner.
  • Fixed an issue where Gremlin Ambushers would only last 10 turns.
  • Fixed an issue where Bind Ancient Wonders would not be removed if the structure was occupied or the city owner changed.

Units
  • Enfeebling Howl from the White Wolf unit and mount can no longer affect friendly units.
  • Mistlings will no longer teleport away when they retaliate to incoming melee attacks
  • Primal Darter can no longer use disengaging shot on the water
  • Fixed Siege Towers not acting during Combat

World Map
  • Fixed an issue where Bind Golden Ancient Wonder would not properly add +50 Knowledge income to the city it is annexed to.
  • Cultural Marauders (Bandit Stacks) can no longer have Primal culture enchantments as they were spawning multiple of different subcultures. We will be investigating this issue and hope to have it only gain one Primal unit enchantment in the future.
  • Fixed an issue where post-combat rewards not being provided properly upon completion.
  • Fixed an issue where random hexes on the World Map would fully heal your army
  • Fixed an issue where armies would not be pushed out of the City Walls when the city was taken over by another player
  • Fixed an issue where the Ritual of Alacrity would remove queue Production
  • Fixed an issue where Traits would incorrectly apply/count Outposts
  • Fixed an issue where non-visibile Reinforcing Armies would not join Combat
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when a unit gets temporarily transformed upon death and then permanently transformed.
  • Fixed a crash where the system would try to process a spell that was no longer valid.
  • Fixed a crash where the system would try to process unit information while they were already dead and removed from the map.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when units that were excavating a province would be killed
  • Fixed a crash that could occur when starting a new game while having pantheon heroes that are missing DLC requirements.
  • Fixed a crash that could occur due to code still figuring during shut down
  • Fixed a crash that could occur in the Heroes Overview
  • Fixed a crash that could occur in the Equipment System


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Pfft, you never had moment where you want to make post, then somehow accidentally post a thread without thinking? x'D Ah well good buy Stormborn goatkin nimue in pantheon xD
 
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Yeah, I'd also like to know more about the removal of Ledership Clash. Is this because the AI wasn't it having apply to them?

EDIT: Answered on Discord by ScienceFictionGuy:

"it didn't really fix anything because you could just split your heroes into 3 armies and move them around together. With 2 heroes per army the penalty was small enough to ignore and that meant you could still spam up to 6 heroes together.The only place where it really prevented you from combining your heroes together was Ancient Wonders. Also hero spam was largely addressed by the hero cap and recruitment changes. So leadership clash wasn't really needed in the first place."

Also I guess there were technical issues getting it to work for the AI as well.

Also also sounds like a minority in the community was rubbed a little raw by the lack of choice, which makes sense. Maybe instead to promote multiple strategies rather than a stick we use a carrot - some sort of boon to incentivise armies that only have 1 hero?
 
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Yeah, I'd also like to know more about the removal of Ledership Clash. Is this because the AI wasn't it having apply to them?

This was discussed heavily in both the Update Beta thread as well as on places like Discord etc. But in essence the previous form of Leadership Clash had a number of problems. It was very unpopular with certain sections of the community, especially the more RPG-minded.

More notably, though, Leadership Clash failed to fix the core issues that it was intended to fix. Another user posted the math in the other thread, but essentially all it functionally did was force the player to split up his heroes into three stacks before battle when farming early game experience. Late game, meanwhile, the penalties did little to actually prevent hero stacking for those particularly important battles.

So in short, it was ineffective and introduced tedious and annoying gameplay for very little benefit. The hero cap changes are the more impactful side of the hero rebalance from the Wolf Update anyway.
 
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Leadership clash likely would never work with AI and by introducing it to AI and forcing the AI to split heroes more would make the AI overall easier to play against and exploit, unless the AI can be improved by a lot which I don't think we'll get to that level before AoW4 is done.

It was a good idea on paper and at surface value, but the result wasn't all that good. It really didn't do much of a difference to avoid hero stacking compared to what the new recruitment system did.

I liked the idea of it as well but recognize this isn't the answer to it and perhaps there may never be one, as it's a complicated issue which I feel something like leadership clash can't address unless it's a lot more stricter and leaves no room for freedom.

E.g you could buy a hero but with upkeep before, idea was to leave room for strategy, but it was always better to have that extra upkeep for an extra hero then not, so now we got a system that does not leave room to buy heroes for extra upkeep as anything to punish that but leave room for choice would likely never work.

A system to avoid hero stacking likely needs to act similarly if it's to work, e.g no extra hero in any army, but that opens up a ton of other issues not just people not liking that change but probably the game's design and AI. Or we need to address the elephant in the room which is the limitation of 3v3 stack fights which is the reason why you'd want to stack multiple heroes into late game battles and no system for promoting having several armies beyond 3 stacks other than very rare "fighting multiple AI at once" situations way beyond into super late game.

Only fix I see to that is "reinforcements behind reinforcements", e.g 18 units is max for one player in battle but once you're down to 17 units the other army units can appear into the battle until you got none left. That could open up many other issues (spawn camping reinforcements, stalling kills to game the reinforcements, wrong units popping up unless you can decide on it, etc) but then that could fix the issue of hordes of T1 or undead armies behind pointless late game or the exhaustion some people mention of "3v3 battle after 3v3 battle after 3v3 battle" when the AI clogs you rather than fight one single big epic battle.

Personally I wish we could decide "I want there to be max 0/1/2/3/4/etc heroes in my game" ourselves like previous AoW, but that's just a personal preference. I never liked the overabundance of heroes later into the game or the design of it (which the new recruitment system doesn't entirely stop) as opposed to each hero being a very important and very limited unit throughout the whole game, but can recognize some people do and should have that choice, just as us who don't should also be able to choose.
 
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Relatedly, is there a design reason why heroes don't have upkeep costs? I'm sure it'd be contentious to add them in at this point, but if heroes are comparable to T5 units (even at lower levels because heroes are invulnerable to certain spells and can stack on items with powerful abilities), then shouldn't they have similar upkeep costs?
 
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Yeah, I'd also like to know more about the removal of Ledership Clash. Is this because the AI wasn't it having apply to them?

EDIT: Answered on Discord by ScienceFictionGuy:

"it didn't really fix anything because you could just split your heroes into 3 armies and move them around together. With 2 heroes per army the penalty was small enough to ignore and that meant you could still spam up to 6 heroes together.The only place where it really prevented you from combining your heroes together was Ancient Wonders. Also hero spam was largely addressed by the hero cap and recruitment changes. So leadership clash wasn't really needed in the first place."

Also I guess there were technical issues getting it to work for the AI as well.

Also also sounds like a minority in the community was rubbed a little raw by the lack of choice, which makes sense. Maybe instead to promote multiple strategies rather than a stick we use a carrot - some sort of boon to incentivise armies that only have 1 hero?
People do love rewards more than punishments, I think leadership clash would make a great realm trait.
 
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Or we need to address the elephant in the room which is the limitation of 3v3 stack fights which is the reason why you'd want to stack multiple heroes into late game battles and no system for promoting having several armies beyond 3 stacks other than very rare "fighting multiple AI at once" situations way beyond into super late game.

Same, for me it's also one of the main mechanic holding the game back.

Rethinking it would massively change the game so I don't think major changes are going to happen in AoW4, I do hope it's one of the system they take another look at whenever they continue the AoW series with a new installement.

For AoW4:

Allowing in battle reinforcements would already help. (so we don't have the issue of AI moving 4 6 stacs and 1 2 stack next to it, making it very vulnerable for attack.
 
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I'm also part of that "RPG-oriented minority" that hated the leader clash. ;-)

But why not make it optional as already proposed:
-Map settings that give the possibility to set a hero-limit (like in previous AoW)
-a special map setting (f.ex. called ambitious antisocial heroes) that has the leader clash

Also:
Please increase the probability of ascended heroes joining even more. Sort of like its in planetfall. That would be awesome.

Greetings Chemicus
 
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With Leadership Clash gone, I wonder, what is the current Triumph's position on state of heroes? Are they content now with hero recruitment change alone or are they going to look for other ways to tone heroes down? I was one of those people who certainly liked Leadership Clash, because I don't like playstyle of hero stacking as it is lazy approach to strategy. Why bother with things like strategy, tactics, army compositions, etc if you can just stack terminators in one army and call it "party-RPG flavor" to legitimate such playstyle. If Leadership Clash didn't worked out, now I expect Triumph to take steps to nerf heroes combat capabilities in general, as it is in my understanding is direct alternative to Leadership Clash.

People do love rewards more than punishments
Not everyone, but yes, "Buff, don't nerf" is a very wide-spreaded mentality among players. The problem is, people with such mentality don't understand that this approach to design/balancing in long term ultimately lead to power creep. I have seen many games surrender to that kind of thinking and ruin their designs over time, I only hope Triumph knows better.
 
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People are laser focused on Leadership Clash while ignoring AI Hero Recruitment Cooldown change.

AI Hero Recruitment Cooldown change is at best a band-aid solution to a problem of AI not understanding unit composition in stacks. Triumph needs to make "templates" or something of that sort for AI when it comes to this issue, 'cause AI will still keep doing weird stacks with 3 support units and a scout or not using support heroes especially when it comes to lower tier stacks.
 
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Same, for me it's also one of the main mechanic holding the game back.

Rethinking it would massively change the game so I don't think major changes are going to happen in AoW4, I do hope it's one of the system they take another look at whenever they continue the AoW series with a new installement.

For AoW4:

Allowing in battle reinforcements would already help. (so we don't have the issue of AI moving 4 6 stacs and 1 2 stack next to it, making it very vulnerable for attack.

Yeah, I really don't wanna go back to the adjacent hex battles from AoW3 and PF with limit of 7 armies in total, even if it worked for more uneven playing fields it had its massive issues. The new reinforcement range is better but the 3v3 limitation is the core issue.

I can understand however they're reluctant to push on that given how managing 18 units against 18 ones seems to be enough of an issue I've seen some people bring up being taxing that adding more might be worse than better. But then I've also heard this issue be brought up alongside there not being a climatic battle and that one 18vs18 battle is just the start of many later into the game and that maybe clumping all of the potential battles into a huge one is better than stretching them out and it would help the AI massively (and anyone who wanna play horde armies).
 
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It seems impossible to get more than the starting Tunneling spider Den. Is that being looked at? I tried several undergound starts with massive underground an Barentz cheat and there is never a second one. Underground also still looks unusable as there is almost no area for cities other than your starting one and maybe 1 or 2 neutrals.

Edit: After some more testing, sometimes you get 2 or 3 and once I even saw 5, but its very random... What is the logic here? can they be hidden behind soft rock?
 
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People are laser focused on Leadership Clash while ignoring AI Hero Recruitment Cooldown change.

AI Hero Recruitment Cooldown change is at best a band-aid solution to a problem of AI not understanding unit composition in stacks. Triumph needs to make "templates" or something of that sort for AI when it comes to this issue, 'cause AI will still keep doing weird stacks with 3 support units and a scout or not using support heroes especially when it comes to lower tier stacks.
I mean, wasn't issue with ai hero recruitment was that ai on high difficulties has so much money they can in single turn recruit six heroes when six heroes died on previous turn? Meaning it feels kind frustrating when ai is able to create entire army of heroes without anything you can do about it.
 
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