Age of Nationalism: Turkey

[Styrbiorn]

Technically leaders may be assigned, but that is not something that can be done as there are no way to control where they appear.

I agree with your solution.

I did construct an Armenian event, but I commented it away in fear of it being quite "hot" so to speak.
We might find angry Turks outside our front door with SCUD missiles if we aren't carefult

 

[Vulture]

Rebels are standard at 0 on the FREE SUBJECTS <--> SERFDOM slider, which is good

 

[Styrbiorn]

Just remember to alter the rebel land tech when we fiddle we the techs.

 

[Damocles]

It would be a shame to ignore the Armenian incident because someone from Turkey might be offended to be reminded of the ethnic cleansing of the Ottoman Empire in it's last years. Presented in a straightforward factual manner with the following lowering of relations with Europe and loss of population to Armenia and it should be fine. Not even a stab hit, as it was mostly just inducing the Kurdish tribesmen to do what they had been yearning to do for quite some time on a wide scale that only affected the immediate region.

It could also be used to give some of the European powers a chance to intervene. Something like Option A "Do Nothing but Reprimand the Turks" and Option B "Attempt to intervene" which would give them a CB.

Most nations recognized the need to prop up the Ottoman Empire however and that they were the only accepted rulers for the most part in the Balkans, as neither the Russians or the Austrians could permit the other to assume the neccessary power in the region to keep the ethnic groups from fighting one another.

Perhaps what led to greater tragedy was the Great Power's caution against any one Power being allowed to completely police the Balkans once the Ottomans proved incapable. There was a belated attempt at Pax Ottomanica, but this discussion reminded me that there should be events that gradually take away one by one, the Ottoman's cultures until only Turkish is kept in 1914. Maybe Arabic. Maybe. It would require closer examination.

Same with Austria-Hungary and Venice of course (though I forget if it even still existed in 1819). In fact, in AoN, it should be extremely difficult to advance beyond one's own ethnic group.

 

[Styrbiorn]

Agree with all said.

 

[Damocles]

I know its possible to simulate random revolts that only happen in provinces that have a different religion then state sponsored. Would it be possible to do so for provinces that have different cultures?

 

[Styrbiorn]

Don't know. Will figure out.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

[i]Originally posted by Styrbiorn [/i]
	action_a = {
			name = "Grant independence"
			command = { type = independence which = BUL }
			command = { type = breakvassal which = BUL }
	}

Nitpicking, but this won't work.

Countries that don't exist when an event goes off don't receive any effects from that event, even if they come into existence as part of it. The effect of the above is to bring Bulgaria into existance as a vassal of Turkey, and leave things that way. Furthermore, breakvassal (as of 1.04) only works when called by the vassal, not the liege.

Fortunately, the trigger command is always executed - the check to see if the event is triggered doesn't occur until after a choice is made, so it works to have, say,

event = {
        id = #Some number
        country = TUR
...
        action_a = {
                name = "Grant independence"
                command = { type = independence which = BUL }
                command = { type = trigger which = #Some other number }
        }
}
event = {
        id = #Some other number
        country = BUL
...
        action_a = {
                name = "OK"
                command = { type = breakvassal which = TUR }
        }
}

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by tearjn
I know its possible to simulate random revolts that only happen in provinces that have a different religion then state sponsored. Would it be possible to do so for provinces that have different cultures?

I'm afraid not. The way you cause revolts in provinces of non-state religion is with a special command, religiousrevolt, not a variant of the normal revolt command (revolt). There's no corresponding command for non-state culture.

 

[unmerged(7536)]

Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Technically leaders may be assigned, but that is not something that can be done as there are no way to control where they appear.

I agree with your solution.

I did construct an Armenian event, but I commented it away in fear of it being quite "hot" so to speak.
We might find angry Turks outside our front door with SCUD missiles if we aren't carefult

We have F-16s not SCUDs.

As a Turk I have to say that I wouldn't be offended if it was labeled correctly, but the event in question was in 1915, which is just outside the scope of this project right?

Now let me comment on some events:

1- 1864 - Something like 1 million people from the Cacauses migrated to the Ottoman Empire when the Russians invaded that area(Half my family included) in what is called the grand migration. These people, although not Turkish or Islamic particularly, brought manpower, and also a lot of soilders in the later era are from this region.

So you could give the option to accept these refugees, and recieve more manpower, maybe a few 1000 soilders, and a stab hit.

2- 1846 The foundation of Kuleli Military Academy

This is an important Academy because it gave rise to an educated Military elite. The Young Turks are from the Academy, and so is the great Ataturk. You will see the effects of the graduates from this academy further down.

It could increase your land tech, but maybe also increase the revoltrisk.

3- 1855-1856 Crimean War

A lot of people skipped this. I think it's a rare war in history, with the English, French and the Ottomans against the Russians. Also the use of nurses in war (Florence Nightingale).

4- 1868 The foundation of the Red Crescent

Like the red cross, it was established to help the wounded in battle. But since the cross would not be welcome by the Islamic soilders, they changed it to the crescent.

Less attrition maybe?

5- 1876 The First Constitution.

A parliment was formed, and for one whole year, great stability. Until... The Russo-Turkish war and the sultan makes the parliment obsolete in 1877. For 30 years he ruled with an iron fist.

This could also be an option. Since the parliment was also a platform for minorities to further their cause. It could be done with the declaration of war, I mean when the Ottomans are in war after the Constitution, an option could be given to close the parliment and suspend the constitution.

6- 1908 The Young Turk Revolution and the Second Constitution

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1908youngturk.html

This is also an important event. Note in the above link, the official language will be Turkish, free education to every Ottoman citizen and :

"9. Every citizen will enjoy complete liberty and equality, regardless of nationality or religion, and be submitted to the same obligations. All Ottomans, being equal before the law as regards rights and duties relative to the State, are eligible for government posts, according to their individual capacity and their education. Non-Muslims will be equally liable to the military law. "

(how is that for some effects )

Of course by 1909 the young turk government was pretty much controlling everything. Nevertheless relations were established with other Turkic nations and people (DIP ++).

7- 1911 The Tripoli War

Tripoli and Libya was under direct Ottoman control. Italians wanted some colonies of their own. Since there was no land connection (Egypt under English rule) Only some officers could be sent (including Enver and Celal Pasha, 2 of the 3 people who ruled until the end, and Ataturk.)

The Italians also invaded the islands of the coast of Turkey, but never annexed them.

8- 1912-1913 The Balkan Wars

In two years most of the European territories under Ottoman rule gained independence, and the Bulgarians came within striking distance of Istanbul. (Again a ragtag army from the prisons of Istanbul, headed by some officers from the Kuleli Academy made an amphibious assault on the rear of the Bulgarians, and they had to retreat.)

Anyhow since Bulgaria was over extended, all the other states joined them, (including the Ottomans) and they gained some land back.

I'm not sure how to put this in an event mode.

9- The independence of Greece, Crete, the invasion of Cyprus by Britain, and the Agean Islands by Italians.


10- And one last thing. Did anyone think of an event called the GREAT GAME. You know between Russia- England, how they divided up Persia. etc etc. I'm sure you can find something for the Ottomans in this.

And a spinoff from 6 The Young Turk Revolution. The Idea of Pan-Turkism, uniting all Turks under one banner.

Also there is Pan-Ottomanism, which never worked really, but it wa an idea still there..

And how about this for an event name?

"The Sick Man of Europe Event" hehe

---------------

That's a lot of info I know, They are mostly through the top of my head. Feel free to comment on them. I put them here so that maybe I can be of some help for some events.

Have fun people!

 

[Damocles]

Everything you mentioned should definitely be an event of some kind, Sokollu.

On the Armenian massacere however, there was actually two of them. One of them perpetuated by the Sultan Abdullhaz (or Abdullah, forget his exact name) and on a lesser scale. Basically, inciting the Kurds to slaughter some villages. The Armenians responded by mass-killing some Kurds, but the former undeniably suffered the most harm, since the state was against them. Which is bizarre. The Armenians were always the perfect subjects and the Kurdish tribes were restless and rebellious. Even their nationalism was naive and trusting at first.

He tried to cover it up, but the scale of the killings became such that it eventually attracted international condemnation, even if it was forgotten and smoothed over rather quickly.

A more prolongned, genuine genocide attempt was made during the World War. I think as an excuse that they the Armenians were plotted with the Allies/Russians.

 

[Styrbiorn]

I agree with that. I'll try to fix something.

 

[unmerged(7536)]

Well without getting into anything, I guess we can agree on WW1 events to be out of this.


Other massacres before 1914 were not exclusively done by the Ottomans. If there are going to be events with Ottoman massacres it is only fair to have other nations' massacres as well. So my question is, are the event writers going to tackle every massacre in AON?

I would have a lot of suggestions if you guys like to remember some...

 

[Damocles]

The Armenian massacere was a rather important international issue at the time. At least enough to lower relations and offer a CB to Britain and France.

A British ship in the Black Sea found out about the killings because Armenians were trying to swim out to the boat while they were being slaughtered on the shore.

The Armenian massacere was also the largest and most notorious of the genocide attempts prior to the outbreak of WW1.

So you're right. Normally, its like a question of whether to simulate concentration camps in a WW2 strategy game. In this case however, it was internationally significant enough to warrant at least some blurb, since it very well could have had dire consequences. Which is why Britain should have something like an 85% chance to historically not intervene and a 15% chance to do something. (Which would give them a CB).

There was another big Ottoman massacere in Bulgaria that caused massive international condemnation from everyone but Germany (who ended up being their only real ally).

 

[Damocles]

It would actually be a good idea I think TO include some events relating to massaceres that other nations perpetuated (if you can name any that were on a wide enough scale to attract international attention). This is the Age of Nationalism afterall. Anything that can make the fragmentation of the Ethnic groups more apparent is a good thing.

Oh, the Turks also depopulated several islands during the Greek war for independence via genocide to try and scare the others into submission. I think some 100,000 Greeks were murdered. Entire villages.

The Sultan adhered to a number of policies that eventually made him a pariah to the West and his own people, who deposed him. The Ottomans were pushed into the arms of Germany which was historically significant. These events played a key role in worsening the relationship they had enjoyed with the British and French. Especially over the Greek independence.

 

[unmerged(7536)]

See I didn't want it to get to this. 100,000 Greeks murdered? On the islands? Please, Even today that many people don't live on the islands.

What I'm trying to say is that there were also massive massacres by the Russians and Balkan nations to get rid of the Turkish populations there. Since you seem to be interested in Ottoman history, you should know that every time the Russians invaded Ottoman territory, they killed the entire Turkish and Muslim population. This was the policy, to Re-slav the Balkans. The Greeks and Bulgarians also followed this policy since they needed to build their nations, and they needed populations reflective of their country.

This policy is still in use. Just look at Cyprus where the greeks unsuccessfuly tried to ethnically clean the island. Or better yet Bosnia and Kosovo. The Serbs still loathe the Turks and they tried to take it out of Bosnians.

For other massacres, how about the Native Americans? I think they were killed massively and without regard to women and children around the AON time frame.

And also there is the slave issue. Many killed by drowning or just overworking. The numbers do add up to hundreds of thousands. I think you could give Britain a CB against the Spanish for that, since the British abolished slavery and the Spanish were providing their colonies and Americans.

There are more, the Japanese, Indians, South Africa, Zulu wars, South America, Russians on their own people. etc

You get the picture...

 

[Damocles]

First off, I wasn't just referring to massaceres taking place on the Islands. They were perpetuated by a particularly brutal policy of suppression.

Most if not all massaceres performed against the Ottomans were in times of war and as a response to the well documented penchant for the Turks to massacere the slavic people who were rebellious on a wide scale (Women and children, etc). The Slavs were just as vicious in 'reprisal' as were the Russians. The Turks however, became notorious for it.

There was also no large scale massaceres that would be big enough on the scale of attempting to change a majority culture in a province as they almost did with the Armenians and later succeeded at. The Turks were minorities, and as massaceres against them happened in times of war, they were overlooked.

Personally, I don't feel the Turks were anymore inclined to ethnic cleansing as the Greeks,Serbs, Bulgarians, Russians, etc. There is alot of deep seated animosity.

My point was that, only the Ottoman massaceres became internationally notorious and made into diplomatic issues, which would at the very least warrant a lowering of relations to force them into the historical path of losing Britain/France as traditional allies and turning to the Germans.

 

[unmerged(7536)]

Ok I will agree with that, the Ottoman massacres, and sometimes just plain propaganda, became notorious, and a reason for other nations to step in. I can see Russia getting a CB saying "their Slavic brothers are being murdered in the Balkans."

Or Austria-Hungary getting a CB against the Ottomans to free the Christians, although their Orthodox.

Now if that is so, I was wondering (maybe the event writers can jump in here) if any Event will give the Ottomans a CB against other nations? Russia in particular, and Balkan states in general.

I mean there's gotta be a Russo-Turkish war, hell there should be several of them....

 

[Vulture]

Just to keep everything clean... Discuss possible changes in the threads. When you've agreed on something, post the changes in the PROBLEM LOG thread that is stickied on top. It makes it much easier for me

 

[unmerged(7310)]

Sokollu he's trying to say that it's ok for Greeks to massacre Turks like in western Turkey in 1919, but when Turks retaliate it's genocide.