Age of Discovery - New World/Africa Improvement Mod.

[Evie HJ]

So with the news that, if anything, Paradox's approach to the Native Americans has become even more facepalm-worthy than it already was in EU3 (monarch stats penalty? For REAL, guys?), while the geography and mapping appears to have not improved one tiny little shred (and to have even gotten worse on some points), it's time to get the ball rolling on thinking of this.

So a few ground rule for the mod.

What this mod aims for:
1. Making the Native and African nations fun to play despite any limitations they have.
2. Increasing the playable nations count across the board, as a fundamental part of 1 (having contact with only two other nation = not fun).
3. Making as many of these nations as possible unique, and giving them appropriate DHEs and National Ideas where possible.
4. Improving and making more interesting, challenging and fun the Age of Discovery and colonization for Europe nations.
5. Related, slowing down the European conquest of the natives, especially the North American ones and the African empires.
5. Improved map, taking into account both realism and gameplay/fun.
6. Focusing development on making different regions of the game map fully playable, rather than on a thin veener of playability in some regions.

What this mod does NOT aim for:
1. Absolute accuracy. Fitting in every last state and statelets is not doable. Abstraction will occur.
2. Historical reversion. Absent player intervention, Western European conquest should be the usual result in the Americas.
3. Ahistorical equality. HOW is open to discussion, but American natives should face a steep technological disadvantage vs Europe.

Depending on how Paradox has handled India, some improvement there might also hit our to-do list, as with South-East Asia.

This is a huge amount of ground to cover, and while I've got access to some resources about many of those areas, I'd really appreciate making this a team effort with anyone else interested with improving representation of the African and American theaters.

 

[Vishaing]

Well I'm looking forward to this.

I have to admit part of me is kind of okay with a Monarch Point penalty, but I think it should be associated with Tribal Governments not Native Americans. I think it is a pretty good abstraction of how difficult it was to get things done in governments that didn't have a concrete governmental system. Of course given that, a similar penalty should also be applied to Feudal and Semi-Feudal governments.

You should put a link to this thread in your signature. Since you actually tend to post relatively regularly it will probably help you more than mine helps me!

 

[Heatth]

Depending on how Paradox has handled India, some improvement there might also hit our to-do list, as with South-East Asia.

The latest of Quill18's previews showed this regions, if briefly, if you are interested.

Anyway, I fully support this. I don't think I can off much to contribute, though.

 

[unmerged(10773)]

eager to see what you come up with Guillaume.
Try and take a look at the Death and taxes mod which has a intersinting take on the aztecs.

 

[CaptRobau]

Some stuff I wrote for the Aztecs in this thread. Just read onward to see some of the critiques on it, as some have suggested some changes to it. Either way, it's a start.

While these national ideas would probably be wasted on the Aztecs as they are in EUIV now (ie. exactly the same as EU3), this might form the basis for a more expanded Mesoamerica.

Aztec Empire
Starts with 10% cheaper ideas. They need it, since they won't live very long and it sort of reflects the strong hand of the emperor.

1. Flower Wars: +5% Discipline: The Aztec Empire regularly staged ritualistic battles with its neighbours. This offered fresh victims for sacrific and
2. Human Sacrifice: -2 Revolt Risk: Aztec Emperors demanded human victims for sacrific from their vassal tribes. These tribes would raid each other for victims, creating animosity and making sure they wouldn't band together against the Aztecs.
3. Mandatory Education: +10% Production Efficiency: The Aztecs where one of the first societies to institute mandatory education.
4. Calpulli: +10% Tax Income: The calpulli was the smallest political unit in the Aztec Empire, allowing efficient administration on even the smallest scale.
5. Altepetl: -10% Stability Cost: The Aztec Empire was subdivided into alteptl, sub-states, allowing the Emperors to rule such a large empire.
6. Agricultural Systems: +10% Production Income: Even without the wheel or beasts of burden, the Aztecs managed to prosper agriculturally, having different systems for different terraintypes.
7. Pochteca: +10% Trade Range: The Aztecs engaged in long-range trade. These traders were called Pochteca.

As a bonus they get +50% Manpower. They'll need it to survive the European onslaught.

 

[Bard of Reveran]

I'm interested in what you're going to do Guillame. I personally would like to feel the uniqueness of every nation you're going to put in and rework, despite having similiarities.

 

[entirelyalive]

Do you have any plans to model the great plagues, or do you anticipate keeping the current model of pretending they already happened at game start?

 

[Evie HJ]

Thanks for the Aztec NI's idea!

I haven't yet come to a conclusion as to what I'll do for the plagues.

This is the nation list, divided by region, I intend to have in 1444 so far. Those underlined are already in. Those in bold are intended to be high-priority for design (unique NIs, etc). Others may also eventually get NIs and uniqueness, but one has to start somewhere.

North America
Iroquois, Cherokee, Shawnee, Huron, Creek, Three Fires, Abenaki, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Miami, Susquehannock
(The Susquehannock represent both themselves and the Erie)

Mesoamerica (excluding Maya)
Aztec, Zapotec, Tarascan Empire, Tlaxcala, Totonac, Mixtec, Tlapanec

Mayans
Mani, Sotuta, Can Pech, Chactemal, Itza, Qumarkaj
(Maya proper is now a formable nation for Mani, Sotuta, Can Pech, Chactemal and Itza to try and assemble)
(This is the one region where I'm adding a province - here I feel it's necessary due to the completely daft single-province Yucatan setup)

Andes
Inca, Chimor, Mapuche, Chancay, Huanca, Quito, Aymara,

Sahel
Mali, Songhai, Kanem-Bornu, Segu, Katsina, Kano, Gobir, Jolof, Fulo, Timbuktu, Air, Bagirmi
(Segu represent the Diafanu kingdom, while Timbuktu is a tag that does double duty for the Magsharen Tuaregs in 1444 and the Arma later)
(Hausa as a united state is gone. It may remain as a formable)

Niger-Volta
Ashante, Oyo, Benin, Mossi, Dahomey, Akwamu, Denkyira, Bono, Nupe, Kong
(Dahomey represent Allada. They get priority because we all know I'm going to have to do Amazons NIs at some point, so might as well)

Sudan and Horn of Africa
Ethiopia, Funj, Afar, Alwa, Abadallahid, Darfur, Kaffa, Warsangeli, Ajuuraan
(Darfur represent the earlier Tundjur state.)

This adds up, so far, to 43 new tags I believe.

Areas I still need to work on:
-Kongo
-Zimbabwe
-South-East Asia

So, so far, the Tier-I nations of this mod would be:
Iroquois, Cherokee, Aztecs, Tarasco, Inca, Mali, Songhai, Kanem-Bornu, Ashante, Dahomey, Ethiopia, Funj

 

[Bard of Reveran]

If you're going for absolute accuracy you should name the Native American nations the Romanized version of how they name themselves.

 

[Heatth]

If you're going for absolute accuracy you should name the Native American nations the Romanized version of how they name themselves.

What this mod does NOT aim for:
1. Absolute accuracy. Fitting in every last state and statelets is not doable. Abstraction will occur.

Somehow, I suspect he is not going for absolute accuracy. Guillaume clearly have some knowledge about the native tribes, if he use the Europeanized names it is on purpose. Probably to be more accessible and to fit the rest of the game.

Personally, I would like a separated module with the "more correct" names, though.

 

[Evie HJ]

I thought about that, but I think on the whole, naming them something that the players are more likely to recognize is better.

I could look into a mod like that, but the information is sometime very hard to get.

EDIT: Some National ideas notions. In need of playtesting very much, and balancing.

All Native Americans (NOT Mesoamerican or Andean) will have the "higher core price" tradition the Barbary Pirates also have, to represent the higher difficulties in developing those lands. The price may end up being even higher than it is for Barbary pirates, along with some other bonus.

Iroquois
Tradition*: +200% Cost of coring their territory, +1 Diplomat

Three-Sisters Horticulture: +10% Production Efficiency
The rotating culture of the three sisters, corn, bean and squash was fundamental to the Iroquois way of life
Great Law of Peace: -10% stability cost
Brought to the Iroquois by the Great Peacemaker, the Great Law of Peace aimed to end internal conflicts
Mourning Wars: +33% Manpower growth
By adopting captured enemies into the tribe, the Iroquois were able to replenish their losses more quickly.
Clan Mothers: +1 Monarch Administrative Skills
Iroquois politics left much of local rules in the capable hands of the women of the tribe
The Beaver Wars: Claims on territories owned by neighbor tribes (if possible this may be a claim on fur provinces only)
In the XVIIth century, the fur trade motivated the Iroquois to expand rapidly at the expanse of their neighbors*
Covenant Chain: +2 Diplomatic Relations
The Covenant Chain was a web of alliance between the Iroquois, English colonies and vassal native tribes.
Mingo Migrations: 20% cheaper cores
Iroquois who migrated from their homeland toward the conquered territories to the south and west became known as the Mingos
Ambition: Faster decay of bad relations.

 

[Sir Iain]

Very nice and very good. Any chance you and Dafool teaming up, since he's announced a New World mod as well?

 

[rongyuyao]

When are you people planning to release this mod after EU4 comes out?

 

[Evie HJ]

As soon as I can. I'm hoping to start getting some work done once the demo is released, but we'll see.

 

[Jeltz]

All Native Americans (NOT Mesoamerican or Andean) will have the "higher core price" tradition the Barbary Pirates also have, to represent the higher difficulties in developing those lands. The price may end up being even higher than it is for Barbary pirates, along with some other bonus.

I really like the idea of cores being more expensive, but maybe that should be tied to their type of government or something else though, in case they somehow survive and actually westernize. But since barbary pirates also has the penalty I guess it could work.

 

[Evie HJ]

Even the partially westernized civilized tribe ultimately ended up being displaced to make room for white settlement, though that's a little outside timeline.

 

[Bard of Reveran]

I thought about that, but I think on the whole, naming them something that the players are more likely to recognize is better.

I could look into a mod like that, but the information is sometime very hard to get.

I have no modding experience so please excuse me, but is it possible to mod in two different names? I mean, for example if you're playing as a westerner you'd see the nation of Huron as Huron. But if you're playing as Huron, then it can be Wyandot.

 

[Evie HJ]

I strongly doubt that's possible.

Some further ideas I'm working on :

Tarascan Empire

Tarascan Tradition: +1 Colonist, -10% Cheaper national ideas.
The Tarascan expansion largely took the form of bringing their administration to areas with little organization.
Tarascan Copper: +15% Production efficiency
The Tarascans were nearly unique in Mesoamerica for their use of metal working in the creation of tools and even weapons.
No Mercy: Natives are far less agressive.
Villages claimed by the Tarascans were given the chance to surrender. Those who did not were razed, their citizens sacrificed and enslaved.
Merchant-Officials: +10% Trade Efficiency, and adjacent provinces are automatically explored.
Long-distance trade was the province of government officials, who also served as diplomats and spies.
War Bonfires: 10% Faster unit build time and 10% cheaper units
The lighting of bonfires in Tarascan cities would spread rapidly across the empire the decision of the Emperor to go to war.
Fortified Frontier: +30% Defensiveness
The Tarascans established a vast network of strong defensive position linked together by signal fires to defend against the Aztecs
Otomi Settlements: +25% Manpower
Otomi and other nomads from the north were allowed to settle in the Tarascan Empire, in return for serving its military.
Tarascan Assimilation: -30% Core Creation Cost/Time
The Purepecha, or Tarascan, language spread rapidly throughout the empire and was adopted by many of its conquered people.
Tarascan Ambition: -20% Stability cost.
In sharp contrast with the Aztecs, the Tarascans focused on building a strong, solid basis for their empire.

Robau - I think I'm going to modify your Aztec sets. It would be good for the base game, but here I,ll need many of those ideas for the generic Mesoamerican set, while the Aztecs themselves I want to have a rapid expansion focus, but with relatively few tools to ensure the long-term stability of the empire, to heighten the contrast with the more builder-style Tarascans.

EDIT: Chickasaw are now a high priority...because when your tribe is called both "Spartans of the Lower Mississippi" and "Unconquered and Unconquerable"...well, both of these should be NIs (and they are. One give a sizeable infantry fighting ability bonuses, and the second make Chickasaw provinces an even bigger PITA to core than other native provinces. Which, given how efficient they were at diplomatically and legally stalling against the Indian Removal act...fitting).

(Knowing me, it's likely the Native Americans will more or less all end up with their own unique sets of NIs sooner rather than later)

 

[rongyuyao]

As soon as I can. I'm hoping to start getting some work done once the demo is released, but we'll see.

Can you play mods in the demo game? I really like the idea of this mod and would like to try it out as soon as it comes out.
Also, I hope you people can perhaps make the Aztecs more numerous than in vanilla EU3? Since historically the Aztecs had more soldiers then the Spanish who conquered them did (while in EU3 the European new world forces usually always outnumber the Aztecs and other native American nations... plus for me playing as an European nation it has always been quite boring and easy to destroy native American nations without meeting any challenges at all)

 

[CaptRobau]

I'd advise using the European names. Something like Wyandot is only going to confuse people, while adding little.

About simulating the Columbian Exchange. The easiest way I imagine would be to have it be based on neighbouring a non-American country. If the Spanish colonize or conquer a province in Mesoamerica, it triggers an event within a certain period (like a year). It could be nation or province wide, but either way it would result in manpower being cut by a percentage upward of 75%. A gradual effect would be ideal, but I'm not sure that's possible in EU4. An American country neighbouring a non-American country can also cause the event to be triggered.

I wish you luck with the North-American tribes. Blobbing isn't too bad for the Andean and the Mesoamerican empires, but it's wildly inappropriate for the North American natives.