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Jak9090

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hey just wondering what the average natural age will be for people as in CK1 it was quite unrealistic, also on a similar note, it was common in ck1 to have 11 or so children, but im pretty sure alot of children died before making it to adulthood, 50% or so, maybe even more, so will this also be changed?
 

RedRooster81

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hey just wondering what the average natural age will be for people as in CK1 it was quite unrealistic, also on a similar note, it was common in ck1 to have 11 or so children, but im pretty sure alot of children died before making it to adulthood, 50% or so, maybe even more, so will this also be changed?

That's a good question. Fertility and child mortality should be as realistic as possible. For couples with normal fertility, I think a pregnancy every 2-3 years should be realistic, with about 50% mortality before age 5, say. And I want interesting events for my own children's deaths, if they have to die. Not just "infant dies due to poor health." The old RPG wisdom is if you're going to kill a player's character, it should be satisfying on some level. Don't just drop a boulder on him."
 

3Form

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That's a good question. Fertility and child mortality should be as realistic as possible. For couples with normal fertility, I think a pregnancy every 2-3 years should be realistic, with about 50% mortality before age 5, say. And I want interesting events for my own children's deaths, if they have to die. Not just "infant dies due to poor health." The old RPG wisdom is if you're going to kill a player's character, it should be satisfying on some level. Don't just drop a boulder on him."

I think we have to be careful that we don't just consider mortality rates for the entire population. Our characters are right on the top end of the feudal food chain. Whilst they certainly didn't have modern standards of care for their young, they would have been a damn sight better than that of the serfs.

Not done a huge amount of digging but I can find examples of Kings with five or so healthy children and none lost, yet I can still find examples of Kings that lost half of their children to "died young".

Hmmmm. Looks like theres a good book on the subject on google, I don't fancy reading it now though ^^
 

RedRooster81

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I think we have to be careful that we don't just consider mortality rates for the entire population. Our characters are right on the top end of the feudal food chain. Whilst they certainly didn't have modern standards of care for their young, they would have been a damn sight better than that of the serfs.

Not done a huge amount of digging but I can find examples of Kings with five or so healthy children and none lost, yet I can still find examples of Kings that lost half of their children to "died young".

Hmmmm. Looks like theres a good book on the subject on google, I don't fancy reading it now though ^^

Not an easy question to answer. For our purposes, there needs to be some semblance of realism, without losing the gameplay value of having none of your royal couple's children survive childhood. I assume it's an issue that the devs are going to spend some time on. I think that fertility needs to be rather higher than in DV, but so should mortality. Can you give the title of the book that you found for the benefit of those interested? Thanks.
 

telesien

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The most risky age was before 5. When you survived that long, you had very good chance making well into adulthood. At least that's what I remember reading. So if there should be more elaborate model, it should include this. Also children mortality was quite high even among nobles.

There is just one small problem. The sources we have now generally don't mention kids dying very young. So we can very well have this scenario:
One noble who in reality had 4 kids age 3, 2, 1 and fresh newborn. Now all except the newborn died before reaching age 5 and we don't know about them, so he will start the game with just one kid. So when we now hit this kid with very low survival rate, the chances of this family not making it into next century gets much much higher.

So for this reason and sake of simplicity, I'd prefer lower fertility and more modern death rates.
 

RedRooster81

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The most risky age was before 5. When you survived that long, you had very good chance making well into adulthood. At least that's what I remember reading. So if there should be more elaborate model, it should include this. Also children mortality was quite high even among nobles.

There is just one small problem. The sources we have now generally don't mention kids dying very young. So we can very well have this scenario:
One noble who in reality had 4 kids age 3, 2, 1 and fresh newborn. Now all except the newborn died before reaching age 5 and we don't know about them, so he will start the game with just one kid. So when we now hit this kid with very low survival rate, the chances of this family not making it into next century gets much much higher.

So for this reason and sake of simplicity, I'd prefer lower fertility and more modern death rates.

That's a good point. The characters that exist at game start might otherwise deserve a special variable helping them survive. But modern death rates might be more amenable to modern players. I've taken a couple of classes in graduate school dealing with demography, so I guess I have that on the brain. So let's try to make the medieval era a bit more fun than it was in reality. ;)
 

telesien

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That's a good point. The characters that exist at game start might otherwise deserve a special variable helping them survive. But modern death rates might be more amenable to modern players. I've taken a couple of classes in graduate school dealing with demography, so I guess I have that on the brain. So let's try to make the medieval era a bit more fun than it was in reality. ;)

Another man stricken by the plague of mandatory demography agrees ;)
 

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RedRooster81

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For an empire-shattering civil war, it is! :D

It would be realistic to have that many, but you're right, it's a dangerous situation. It comes down to getting everyone placed, with lands and titles or otherwise church careers. Without rivals and friends, I'm not sure how it will work out, but I remember one time when I had three brothers, all rivals, all my legitimate sons. So I make two dukes and a third archbishop. The archbishop is elected pope, and what does he do the same day that his eldest brother becomes King? Excommunication, of course!
 

3Form

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Not an easy question to answer. For our purposes, there needs to be some semblance of realism, without losing the gameplay value of having none of your royal couple's children survive childhood. I assume it's an issue that the devs are going to spend some time on. I think that fertility needs to be rather higher than in DV, but so should mortality. Can you give the title of the book that you found for the benefit of those interested? Thanks.

It was called "A history of childhood: children and childhood in the West from medieval to modern times". Sadly the first 50 or so pages weren't included on Google Books, and they look like they might be the most useful. "Coping with Death" on p58 may well be worth a read though. Gives some basic mortality rates for the 17th :( century.
 

RedRooster81

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It was called "A history of childhood: children and childhood in the West from medieval to modern times". Sadly the first 50 or so pages weren't included on Google Books, and they look like they might be the most useful. "Coping with Death" on p58 may well be worth a read though. Gives some basic mortality rates for the 17th :( century.

I've finally had a chance to look it over, and there is some interesting stuff here. On childhood mortality, it is difficult to pin down numbers that would be acceptable for a game like this one. I would venture that 250 per thousand would not be a bad number to follow, maybe 300. It might depend on the region too. For the nobility, I would not say that it should be that different from the rest of the population, unless there is some data to argue otherwise.

This book also brings out some interesting information on grieving, illegitimacy, fertility treatments (eat more carrots, milord ;)), etc. that might be useful if you want to make your character's family life more interesting. There should be events, for example, allowing you to boost your character's fertility by way of herbal or sacred cures; mourning over dead family members (though the tension was between death being God's will and showing affection, and there were public vs. private signs of mourning); and so on.

What this author says about illegitimacy reflects what I know about the early modern era, that it depended on circumstances and time and place. Before the XII century, bastards were more easily accepted into the family, but this should not be a hard rule, either. Then there were important distinctions between kinds of illegitimate children: there were "natural children" produced between two unmarried people who could, in many places, legitimize their offspring by marriage. Thus, in William of Normandy's case, his father Robert was unmarried and could have conceivably married the mother of his son. It was a different matter if the father was married to another woman; there was more stigma attached to such children, who I would describe as proper bastards. Then there were other cases like the children of priests after clerical celibacy became the rule of the day: in Spanish these became known as "sacriligios" to denote that their existence owed to transgressing the sacred. So some food for thought.
 

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So true. And unlike in CK1, the baby should not die every time that the mother does.

The rate of survival from premature births in the middle-ages was quite low. I strongly believe it should deppend on the development of the province - a prematurely born babe in the Roman Empire had slightly better chances of survival than one born in the forests of Finland, methinks.
 

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The rate of survival from premature births in the middle-ages was quite low. I strongly believe it should deppend on the development of the province - a prematurely born babe in the Roman Empire had slightly better chances of survival than one born in the forests of Finland, methinks.

What I meant was mothers dying in childbirth, and that isn't neccesarily connected to premature babies.
 

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I think modern longevity would be bad for the gameplay. I would prefer to have rulers dieing (as an average) in the 40s and 50s, which could increase the need for regencies and potentially lead to succession crises. ;)
 

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I think modern longevity would be bad for the gameplay. I would prefer to have rulers dieing (as an average) in the 40s and 50s, which could increase the need for regencies and potentially lead to succession crises. ;)

I see what you mean. It's kind of boring waiting for your character to die so that his heir can succeed, especially when you set up a dynastic union. After a few decades keeping the throne warm, I want to be able to retire to a nice monastery, provided my character has the right traits, of course. Otherwise there is the old EU3 trick of sending the old guy into battle: my kingdom's succession is secure. Time to conquer, uh, Egypt!

In CK1, your characters can start having children of their own by age 14, and wear down by age 45 or so. I imagine that seasoned medieval warriors should have the bodies of our high-impact professional athletes these days, so imagine a rugby or hockey player's body after three or four decades of heavy punishment. But then again if you have a character that keeps his realm at peace, then longevity should be a bit longer. And sober, temperate people should last longer, too.
 
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