Ya but what happens is that they then ally them and then get entangled with their wars because thye then DOW another west African AI. Remember AIs weigh the economic strength of their alliance vs another AIs alliance when deciding to DOW or not. This of course has the same problematic result for Portugal.Jinnai said:
The otgher problem is that Granada enters an alliance with Morocco and Algiers. This causes Castile to go to war with them, usually by itself, and get huge chuncks of unhistorical land in North Africa.idontlikeforms said:
Not really. By the time Portugal finds Benin it should have itself an alliance system already. Sure flukes can happen and they won't have a good one, but they could also end up in an alliance with Granada.idontlikeforms said:
You are way off here IDLF. What we don't do here is let one side of the discussion decide how infallable his sides' arguements are and how useless the other side's arguements are.IDLF said:
I'm just speaking from personal observation. Sometimes the scenario you just explained is what happens. Sometimes what I just explained happens. But the point is that what I just explained happens often enough that it is a serious problem. You scenario here only happens if Portugal is not the leader of the alliance. Sometimes Portugal is allied to Castile and a west African country and then the problem still happens.Jinnai said:
Where am I off at? My point is that this discussion has resulted in every one of my main points being un-refuted and every one of your guys main points being refuted. If that doesn't count for something in the minds of the people involved in this debate than it is all but irrelevant to debate in the first place. And that is my point. If we can debate and no matter how weak one of the arguments is it can't be resolved or one side refuses to gives than the mod just gets reduced to a am a HC member and I can block anything from getting in no matter how pointless my argument for rejecting it is kind of thing. That's what I don't want to happen. I don't want us non-HCers to have our capacity to contribute to this mod to be diminished.Norrefeldt said:
Thats nice but surely you must realize by now that there is a definite problem with the Portuguese AI and that problem needs to be solved not ignored. Do you prefer the removal of Granadan vassalage over my cheat event. Because it is just senseless to block a solution to a problem with no other alternative. All that will do is force the problem to remain. Worse case scenario my AI cheat event should be added then removed if another better solution is found. But surely you must realize that doing squat to fix the problem would be the worse case scenario not that my event getting added? Even from the perspective of someone who doesn't like it. I don't like it either. But it works. And if it's my event vs nothing, I think it would be foolish to just veto it in favor of nothing.Norrefeldt said:
Technically by the submissions rules all I have to do is wait for this discussion to die down then submit the proposal. At that point one of the HC members may, if they choose to, force it to a vote. But jumping ahead and not even waiting for this, to force it to a vote would be an over-use of an HC member's power.Norrefeldt said:
Ya but if you were paying more attention to this debate Norrefeldt you would have realized that I already deleted these troublesome events and have explained why too. He just failed to realize that that was already addressed.Norrefeldt said:
They usually call on their allies, but yes they do often get a province or 2 in north Africa. But this is better than Portugal getting whacked 50% of the time.Jinnai said:
That's just not right. There is the possibility for the AGCEEP to decide to just accept that Portugal will be weak in a third or whatever portion of the game in order to not sacrifice the basics of the mod's philosophy or to avoid other things that are not desired by most people. I'm not saying that this would be a good decision, but it still is an option, you gotta acknowledge that, and even people who'd prefer that are not necessarily complete morons who fail to understand your superior reasoning; they just have different priorities, and you finally should accept that.idontlikeforms said:
No. I did not try to argue with you anymore because it is an unrefutable fact that we have different valid opinions on certain things. Please grant other people the right to expect different things from the mod than you do, and please just tolerate other opinions. You only think you have "completely refuted" other opinions because of course those opinions don't work when judged on the base of your own opinion and your own premises. This is not an appropriate way to handle other opinions. Acknowledging that there are different ways of thinking which lead to different sets of mind is the very essence of political pluralism.
Why would many others and myself want to continue to help out with and play a mod that is content with this kind of approach. Who wants to play a mod where it's a stated priority to keep problem areas of the mod unsolved because a non-common technique is the only solution to the problem? Why would I want to work on a Portuguese AI that is condemned to get whacked 50% of the time?Twoflower said:
I accept that. I just don't want to help contribute to that kind of a mod and no doubt many others don't want to either let alone actually play it. This postion may please you and Norrefeldt but it would undoubtedly alienate many others including myself. Is that a satisfactory solution to you? Do you want that kind of an outcome? Is this a community mod or an HC mod?Twoflower said:
I do tolerate their opinions, but when they want a problem to remain unsolved because they just don't like the solutions available I find that unnacceptable. So in an effort to not force others and myself to give up on this mod completely I give it the best shot I can. I'm highly annoyed that others in this forum aren't analyzing the long term consequences of their decisions and are content with simply not solving problems because the solutions aren't methods that they enjoy.Twoflower said:
This is not accurate. The very fact that you have had to make up a new objection then abandon it and make up a new one over and over and over again proves that they have in fact been refuted. Do I need to make a list of your objections to jog your memory here. Why does this not matter to you? You lost the argument plain and simple and now you want to block my proposal just because you don't like it. That's hard to swallow bro. I spent so much work on this and spent so much of my time pointing out why it helps so much and refuting all your objections and now the bottom line is your going to reject it inspite of all of this. I can asure I don't want to help out here or play this mod anymore if this is the kind of outcomes I can expect no matter how strong of an argument I give and no matter how weak of an argument is given against it. The mere fact that you have reverted to a let's not argue about it anymore stance shows that you've run out of excuses? Has your excuse well been exhausted? Seems like it huh?Twoflower said:
But somewhere along the line we have to stop worshipping pluralism and try to objectively think about what does and doesn't work. If we are all just trying to make the mod the way we want and we won't budge when others have different ideas, then how will this experiment in modding work? The fact that you or I don't like a proposals is no rational basis for determining what should and shouldn't be added. We need to step away from our own opinions and objectively analyze the situation. Do you want major gameplay problems to remain in the game? If no you need to be willing to got the distance in removing them or else you don't really want this now do you?Twoflower said:
Well there can be equally valid views at least in theory and no doubt at times something like this may very well happen. But the fact is that this is not one of those cases. Proposals must be weighed on the strength of their arguments for and agaisnt them. Without this happening the idea that this a community mod is just mythical.Twoflower said:
Which would only be benin now...which is in an alliance at the start of the game.idontlikeforms said:
It happens with any country adjecant to a Portuguese owned province. Which could potentially be any of them.Jinnai said:
Norrefeldt said:
Nope. You obviously missed or deliberately forgot the part where I pointed out that these cheats are very different. In fact they are no cheats at all, but just historical events, and even if they were cheats they would be much more acceptable than the cheats presented here. I'll point it out for you again:idontlikeforms said:
I've already complained about 1 thing to him about a week ago...don't want to seem like a big complainer.Summoner said:
