• Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


  • Paradox Midsummer Sale has arrived! Up to 75% off!

    Enjoy some sun and song this Midsummer, but when the sun goes down, the fun doesn't have to stop! Paradox has a festive sale on plenty of games to keep your summer nights going!


    June 18th - June 30th
  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
I'm making this new thread because I think there is going to be enough on this topic to justify a whole thread just for it. I have alot of things to discuss in this first post so please respod to as much of as it as possible everybody, and not just 1 or 2 parts only.

First of all I have pinpointed the primary reasons for why Castile/Spain is beating the crap out of Portugal about 50% of the time in the 15th century. As some of you may be aware this is not happening nearly as much in the vanilla. The reason why is because the primary causes for this are unfortunately AGCEEP events induced.

First let me explain how the AI is working that I've been able to pinpoint successfully just recently. What the AI does for Portugal and I'm assuming for all AIs is decide that the AI should go to war, it then waits for certain requirements to be met and then among the eligible targets by it's predetermined standards it picks one a DOWs it. I'm assuming that it will pick the most desirable target first given it's criterias, but I'm not 100% sure on this. Perhaps there is a random element involved as I've found out there is for colonizing and TPing. I'll talk more about this subject later on in this thread.

Some of the criterias for DOWing that I've noticed so far are low relations and CBs. It will also factor in the amount of provinces that a potential target has. This is the main reason why Castile/Spain is DOWing Portugal and very rarely the other way around. In fact 95% of portugal's geting beat up early problems can be directly linked to Castile/Spain DOWing Portugal.

This is happening because Portugal is meeting the criterias that the Castilian/Spanish AI has for DOWing another country. The way it is meeting this criterias is both through CBs and low relations. Both of these are being given to Castile/Spain through events, both random and AGCEEP events. Obviously we can't fix the random events but we can fix the AGCEEP created events that are causing this.

There are 2 major event sets that are giving the castilian/Spanish AI a justification for DOWing Portugal by it's given criteria.

First of all let me explain how the first one is even eligable to be triggered. The Portuguese AI after it's war with Morocco is often deciding that it wants to go to war again. It then looks for the most eligible target. Granada is often meeting it's requirements, by low relations. As near as I can figure they are negative but not even near -200. Portugal is then DOWing Granada. Probably about 3 out of 5 times it is capturing Gibraltar from Granada and then because Granada is so poor and already a vassal of Castile it recieves Gibraltar from Granada in a peace deal. This then triggers one of the events 260007, 260008, or 260009, which were made by Garbon to ensure that Castile/Spain winds up with Gibraltar and Granada around the time of the early 16th century. The A options of these events look like this. =
action_a = {
name = "We shall keep the Muslim lands!"
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 444 value = 5 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 445 value = 5 }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -25 }
}
This means that 95% of the time Portugal is getting this result when the Portguese AI is successfully taking Gibraltar from Granada in an early war. Which is usually being accomplished in the first 20 years of the game.

As you can see this -200 relation hit to Portugal's relations with Castile is then making Portugal an eligible target for the Castilian AI to DOW Portugal. And Portugal then gets the crap beat out of it and winds up amounting to nothing for the rest of the game! I don't think I need to convince anybody at this point that this is a major gameplay problem.

Fixing this problem is going to necessitate the removal of these 3 events that Garbon made. They are located in the portuguese event file. This will solve one part of the problem. Portugal will still DOW Granada and this needs to be fixed too. However I'll address the solution for this a little later on in this long post. The 1 other problem here that will need to be solved is what to do about Portuguese ownership of Gibraltar or Granada for that matter. I think we will need to make an event set that cedes Gibraltar back to Granada, if it is taken, for a price of say 200 ducats. Granada will of course have to take loans for this but a human Granada will undoubtedly quit if he loses one of his 2 provinces here. So no problem there. And an AI Granada if he loses Gibraltar is going to die anyways. This event should be province specific for ownership of Gibraltar only up to the last Spanish event effecting the expulsion of the moors etc. So it will work for any owner of Gibraltar besides Castile, Spain, or Granada.

As far as non-Granadan, Castilian, or Spanish ownership of Granada, there will have to be made a similar province cedeing event for 200 ducats to Spain or Castile. It should not be able to be triggered by Granadan ownership of course. Also there will have to be events triggered by these cessession events that minus 200 ducats from the appropriate targets treasury and most importantly they must be AI only events so humans won't be effected by all of this.

The next big AGCEEP event that causes problems is this event here. =
#Support Juana (1474)#
event = {
id = 18028 #Triggered by CAS 7110 or 7111#
random = no
country = POR
name = "EVENTNAME18028"
desc = "EVENTHIST18028"
style = 1

action_a = { #Support Juana#
name = "ACTIONNAME18028A"
command = { type = casusbelli which = CAS value = 60 }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -200 }
}
action_b = { #Forget it#
name = "ACTIONNAME18028B"
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 100 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
}
As you can see it is triggered by Castilian events and yep you guessed it they cause negative relations too. The action A here is -200 relations. So it is being selected 95% of the time. This means that unless the Castilian AI has a better target or is already engaged in a war it will then DOW Portugal shortly after this event set takes place. This is why if any of you have been watching the Portuguese AI, like I have been lately, you will have noticed that almost all of Portugal's wars with Castile are taking place in the first 3rd of the 15th century and the beggining of the last 3rd of the 15th century but very rarely in the middle of the 15th century. That's because these events really are causing about 80% of the wars between Castile and Portugal.

The other culprit of these wars is when Spain annexes Aragon. This gives a -50 relation to Portugal and since as you guessd it they are already low because of the support Juana event set I just discussed in the paragraph above this is often bumping Portugal into Spain's hit list as well. If these are corrected this should make a very large difference in the health of the Portuguese AI.

As for preventing Portugal from DOWing Granada, I think the best solution is to put all of the portuguese king AIs warmonger settings up to Manuel on 0 and here's why. Portugal needs to engage in 2 wars max. The first 1 is the war it starts with. After this war is ended we want Portugal to engage in 1 other war before 1500 or so and that is a 2nd war with Morocco only if it failed to capture Tangiers. This failure conveniently triggers this event here. =
event = {
id = 18005
trigger = {
OR = {
exists = MOR
exists = FEZ
}
NOT = { owned = { province = 732 data = -1 }}
}
random = no
country = POR
name = "EVENTNAME18005"
desc = "EVENTHIST18005"
style = 1

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1437 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1438 }

action_a ={ #Send Expedition#
name = "ACTIONNAME18005A"
command = { type = casusbelli which = MOR value = 12 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = FEZ value = 12 }
command = { type = inf which = -2 value = 8000 }
command = { type = cav which = -2 value = 2000 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = trade value = -250 }
command = { type = naval value = -250 }
}

action_b ={ #No, Save Our Money#
name = "ACTIONNAME18005B"
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = trade value = 250 }
command = { type = naval value = 250 }
command = { type = relation which = MOR value = 35 }
command = { type = relation which = FEZ value = 35 }
}
}
The Portuguese AI will pick action A 95% of the time. I reccomend that this event give a DOW instead of the CB and negative relations, which are unnecessary anyways as Tangiers is claimed by Portugal as a core even at the start of the game. This will force the Portuguese AI to DOW without any warmongering percentages necessary. An AI or human can of course handle it because of the troops being given for free with action A. And these troops should have full morale by the time they are dropped off in north Africa.

Portugal historically had peace and stability for most of the 15th century, unlike most of the rest of europe. And by no coincidence this is exactly what makes the Portuguese AI prosper. So this is what we want to ensure that Portugal will be strong and healthy by the 16th century to be setup good for Indian Ocean conquests. And after all a human Portuguese player does this themselves, really only the AI is not doing it.

Another topic that needs to be discussed is our paying attention to AI performances as AGCEEP contriubutors. Mr_hormiga and Daywalker indeed have pointed out a significant flaw in the overall effort to improve the AGCEEP and that is our not paying enough attention to the AI. I reccommend that all of us regular contributors deliberately pay attention to how the AIs is working and post this information as much as is relevant in out posts and that each of us then make mental notes of all the findings about how the AI is working and what he does in specific situations. It may even be worthwhile to assemble an AI bible thread that explains step by step what all the AI settings do and what the AIs are doing in the game.


I have alot more to discuss on this topic, particularly AI changes for Portuguese Indian Ocean conquests, but as I need to stop at school, I'll post them later on today.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
Ok I'm back. I have some thoughts about Portuguese leaders. For those of you who don't know, the AI does not deliberately use conquistadors in battle. It will only use them to fight accidentally and rarely gives them large troops stacks. Instead the AI makes them explore the areas for expansion that it is ordered to in it's AI file. If it happens to be moving through a war zone on it's way to an unexplored province it will fight but then afterwards keep moving towards it's objective as if no war was actually taken place. As a footnote the AI will use explorers for fighting however.

As a result the use of conquistadors for wars of the AI's is almost entirely useless. Which brings me to my next proposal.

Almeida, Albuquerque, Anaya, and da Cunha should all be switched from conquistadors to generals. This way the AI will use them in wars.

Now for the historical justification part. Conquistadors have 0 stats in europe. And therefore are not useful for wars there. The EU2 crew made it this way as their premise was that the conquistadors are people who rose to positions of merit from humble begginings by conquests outside of europe and therefore stood little likelyhood of having accomplished the same things in europe.

But Albuquerque, Almeida, and da Cunha do not fit this description. They were highly favored leaders by king Manuel and had portugal been involved in european wars at the time they would have undoubtedly both led the Portuguese and distinguished themselves in europe instead. Furthermore they did in fact explore almost nothing. And these 3 commanders did not just do their own thing like Cortes and Pizzaro. They often recieved orders from king Manuel to capture this or that objective next etc. Therefore by EU2 standards they are eligable for generalship.

This of course will hurt human players who enjoy being able to use these leaders to explore Brazil and acquire colonies more quickly and cheaply. They also use them to dump stacks of 20,000 troops into provinces with 2 supply rate. So human Portuguese players will be losing here.

However this is petty. They can still use them to attack and can usally pull off wins with 12,000 troops instead of 20,000 just fine. I will keep on the lookout for justifications to make another conquistador or 2, who actually did explore, for this time period or shortly afterwards for the sake of human Portuguese players who may lament the loss of these leaders as conquistadors. But at least the AI will be able to perform in wars much better.

Now for my next proposal which is partially theoretical at this point. I think that we can make more AIs for specific situations, not just for specific rulers. For example let's say we don't want a given country to engage in any siginificant amount of wars until it did historically. Which just so happens to be when they get a nice leader or 2. When these leaders appear we can then switch their AI files via event and set their warmonger setting to like 100 or so. The idea being that their AI files just prior to this have extremely low warmonger settings like say even 0 in some cases.

I'll illustrate an example of what I'm talking about. Lets say we make 3 Manuel AI files instead of just one for Portugal, Manuel A, Manuel B, and Manuel C. We don't want Portugal to be aggressive until the time that Portugal decided to send large expeditionary forces to the Indies and seize key places by force. Prior to this we want Portugal warwise to be very docile. This event by the way happens to be conveniently reflected in my Enterprise of the Indies event(which I may rename before submitting). This event could then trigger the Manuel B AI file. The Manuel A AI file has a warmonger setting of 0. Manuel B AI file has a warmonger setting of 100. Manuel C AI file has a warmonger setting of say 50. Manuel B AI file would expire when Albuquerque finally dies. Then Manuel C AI file would kick in. This way the Portuguese AI would only be hyper-aggressive at the historical time of its main conquests.

Now for my next point let me first explain some more observed AI behaviour. The AI moves it's fleets around only in the designated areas for expansion. I am assuming that the troops work the same way. If we make the Manuel B AI file only have designated areas for expansion in the Indies we may be able to force the AI to keep all his troops in this region, conveniently with the high stats generals like Albuquerque and Almeida.

I know for certain that the AI will sail his fleets in this area and that the AI amphibeous assaults much much better with large fleets than with small ones. If the AI has say 80 transport and 20,000 troops then the AI may very well be able to drop them off where they are supposed to. But if it has 20 transport capacity you can forget about it happening. Yes I have playtested this so don't go all Daywalker on me. The theoretical part so far is will the troops stay in these areas or not.

Now hold on I know what you're gonna say next. Well if you make the AI do this idontlikeforms then I will just attack Portugal in 1505 or so and stomp him because he is stuck in India with all his troops. But I have a solution for this too. Manuel C does not have the exlcusively Indian Ocean areas for expansion. And if any significant european power DOWs Portugal an event triggers to make Manuel C kick in right away instead of in 1515. So you think you're tough and you're gonna jack Portugal and switch his AI on him by DOWing him to prevent him from taking his whole empire. Well guess what Albuquerque and Almeida are in transports on their way back to europe and are gonna kick your #$% with their 5-5-5-1 and 6-4-5-2 stats that now work in europe too. Besides the AI will jsut go where it's enemies in war at at anyways despite the designated areas for expansion.

In addition to this we can make extra Portuguese generals. It won't help a human portugal much because they will be using primarily just 2 groups of troops to conquer provinces in the Indian Ocean and these will be led by 2 of their 3 good leaders Albuquerque, Almeida, or da Cunha.

Also I have experimented with giving the AI extra DP slider increases just before their conquests and yes it does help alot. I've been thinking alot about the portuguese military at this time in general and just how formidable was it. And as near as I can tell it was pretty darn strong. Man for man they could take just about anybody in the world. They were even a little tougher than Spain's army. Because of this we could make a Portuguese military event. This event could be 2 or 1 events depending on what everybody thinks. Portugal would get +3 quality, +3 offensive, and -2 land or so. A description explaining some of their tactics and unique technology that made them so formidable at this time could be added as well. I'm still trying to research this.

It could all be just for the AI but it is historically justified anyways. We can also make events later on that reduce the formidability of the Portuguese army as it did tend to degenerate in skill since the conquests. However it may turn out to be unncessary as Portugal will have a perfectly historically justified acute shortage of manpower and this may make them more beatable at later dates anyways. It may turn out that making an AI Porugal have 10 quality is the best thing to make it both rise at the right time decline when its supposed too. For those of you who are wondering, giving it higher quality at the beggining will not work because the support costs are too excessive for the 20,000 troops it begins with and doing this will set it back finacially by a huge margin.

Another point I've noticed that if the AI has land tech 5 he does usually do fortification storms. A Portuguese AI that has 5 land tech should be able to kick the crap out of any Indian country much more quickly and easily. It may be worthwhile to give a Portugeuse AI enough land tech in an AI only event to make him be able to make storms in the Portuguese conquest of the Indies period. Another solution would be to make say land tech 3 or be able to make storms. By the way is there a good gameplay reason why AIs should not be able to make storms until land tech 5? At 3 it should stop minor powers from be able to do it for some time still. Besides the long wars just hurt AIs anyways.

Well anyways these are my thoughts on this matter. Most of this isn't theoropa universalis but some is. I tried to specify the parts that are just specualtion at this point. Obviously a large chunk of this will need alot of playtesting but I want to get the discussion going on it.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
I've found out that the portuguese AI will DOW Granada still even on warmonger level 0 or even on -5, although it does seem to do it at a later date.

I have made every event that hurts relations between these 2 countries have not more than -20 relation hits. And at the current 50 relations start between these 2 countries this is still not enough. Portugal will need 100 relations with Castile in 1419. I have no idea whether this is historically justifiable or not, but alot of other history which is jsutifiable just won't happen without this.

I have also reduced this =
# Bonus for areas to establish colonies adjacent to previous ones.
neighbour = 0
to zero for all Portuguese AIs prior to Manuel. It helps the AI to pick the best places for colonization more frequently. Besides Portugal by no means was trying to clump their colonial possessions together anyways. On the contrary they were deliberately spreading them apart.

I also split Afonso's AI into 2. This is because I made the Duarte AI have 95% TP rate vs colony rate to reduce the amount of times Portugal will try to colonize Nouadibuh or Tasseret. The Afonso AI A will only TP not colonize. This is because often the AI only knows Nouadibuh and Tasseret by the time Afonso V comes to the throne and consequently when it decides to send a colonist and not a TP it will have to send them to one of those 2. Gil Eanes dies before the AI decides to sail firther down than Louga. Nuno Tristao shows up in 41' and the AI will send him further down the coast of west Africa. This way the chances that Portugal will have TPs in other places besides Nouadibuh or Tasseret will be much higher and then the AI has the option of colonizing elsewhere when Afonso AI B kicks in in 1443.

For those of you who don't know the Portuguese AI is too often trying to colonize these 2 provinces. This is both ahistorical and a dead end financially as it can literally flush 15 years of colonizing down the toilet just to get one of these 2 total piece of junk provinces up to 1,000 pop. The AI will now only TP other than the Azores and Cape Verde prior to 1443. Date sound familiar? It's when Arguin was discovered and colonized shortly thereafter.
 

EUnderhill

Happy Feet!
25 Badges
Mar 27, 2002
4.679
531
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
I don't think I can respond to EVrything, as per your first post, but I will at least try to cover the things that I find most important.
1) Portuguese colonization is very tough to guide, because a lot is hard-coded at the tag level. This may also be behind the wars with Granada. Someone once did a tag-switching experiment, and the country (Norway?) that got the POR tag DOWed them, and also only colonized in the ToT zone, and did not colonize until it knew provinces there, depite knowing available places and having a colonial AI.

2) Castile/Spain punking Portugal half the time is bad. Maybe ten percent is better, or at least acceptable. To keep Portugal from being mauled should war break out after having taken a province from Granada (could be either, as I have seen Aragon get in on the action as well is to have an event triggered by Portuguese ownership of either of the two provinces and war with Castile that gives an early core on the province in question. This should convince Castile to accept peace for only the Granadan province. Without a core, they will probably want the more valuable provinces.

I guess that is all for now. Oh wait, if Albuquerque died in battle, you might make a case for giving him a few extra years, esp if in game terms Portugal is showing up late for the party.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
EUnderhill said:
I don't think I can respond to EVrything, as per your first post, but I will at least try to cover the things that I find most important.
1) Portuguese colonization is very tough to guide, because a lot is hard-coded at the tag level. This may also be behind the wars with Granada. Someone once did a tag-switching experiment, and the country (Norway?) that got the POR tag DOWed them, and also only colonized in the ToT zone, and did not colonize until it knew provinces there, depite knowing available places and having a colonial AI.

Well I can tell you right now that I got Portugal right now in my version to colonize vey well. If left alone he can get even up to 8 colonial cities and plenty of TPs by 1500. The trick is to keep him out of alot of wars. If he is fighting too much it won't happen.

Being hard coded would make alot of sense.

EUnderhill said:
2) Castile/Spain punking Portugal half the time is bad. Maybe ten percent is better, or at least acceptable. To keep Portugal from being mauled should war break out after having taken a province from Granada (could be either, as I have seen Aragon get in on the action as well is to have an event triggered by Portuguese ownership of either of the two provinces and war with Castile that gives an early core on the province in question. This should convince Castile to accept peace for only the Granadan province. Without a core, they will probably want the more valuable provinces.

I don't think this will work. The AI seems to want to continue fighting when it is seiging provinces. I can't explain every facet of how it decides it wants to negotiate or not but I'm almost positive it will just keep fighting. And because Tago, Oporto, and Algarve have such high values in peace deals it will definitely still get at least one of them. I think the ceded the 2 Grandan provinces for 200 ducats each will probably work better. Either way definitely get rid of those 3 events. They are game enders for the Portugal AI.


EUnderhill said:
I guess that is all for now. Oh wait, if Albuquerque died in battle, you might make a case for giving him a few extra years, esp if in game terms Portugal is showing up late for the party.

No he died at the ripe old age of 73. Pretty darn old for someone who has been in combat off and on his whole life eh?
 

EUnderhill

Happy Feet!
25 Badges
Mar 27, 2002
4.679
531
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
Toning down relationship hits might be better that eliminating events entirely. Some of the problems in the past have been the relative ease with which Portugal can wind up diplo-annexed. I have even seen England do it to Portugal (they had a common border in Ireland resulting from an alliance war). Ideally there should be all sorts of unfriendliness short of war. And if Portugal holds parts of Granada there should be war, if it can be ended short of Portugal losing a core. Perhaps Johan will be bored some weekend and release a beta introducing a "peace" command.

Speaking of the design team, do not take that which was said regarding conquistadors literally. Some people would rather talk out their ass rather than admit that something was a game-balance feature. And in vanilla, they function fine as conquistadors, because the relevent areas that either start vacant, or get that way through native revolt, thus following a colonization, not a conquest model.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
EUnderhill said:
Toning down relationship hits might be better that eliminating events entirely. Some of the problems in the past have been the relative ease with which Portugal can wind up diplo-annexed. I have even seen England do it to Portugal (they had a common border in Ireland resulting from an alliance war). Ideally there should be all sorts of unfriendliness short of war. And if Portugal holds parts of Granada there should be war, if it can be ended short of Portugal losing a core. Perhaps Johan will be bored some weekend and release a beta introducing a "peace" command.

Speaking of the design team, do not take that which was said regarding conquistadors literally. Some people would rather talk out their ass rather than admit that something was a game-balance feature. And in vanilla, they function fine as conquistadors, because the relevent areas that either start vacant, or get that way through native revolt, thus following a colonization, not a conquest model.

I think wars should happen too if Portugal siezes Gibraltar or Granada, but pretend I'm Daywalker for a second. It won't work. I've tested it many times. OK? For gameplay purposes a youthful Portugal just can't handle an aggressive Castile, unfortunately. I wish it could.

Ya a peace command would come in handy. Johan if he wants to could make us AGCEEPers very very happy. There's alot of things he could do to help besides just this too.

But historically these conquistadors didn't really do what other ones in the game did. They actually resemble the generals more. Besides the AI will use generals in wars but not conquistadors. By switching them to generals we are taking a huge step in the direction of making the Portuguese AI do what it is supposed to. The way humans are using them as conquistadors is ahistorical anyways. Do we really need to reward ahistorical behavior. If they aren't conquistadors this will reduce the temptation to just colonize Brazil or the carribean, as they will have a really nice set of generals just sitting there doing nothing. The more I think about this the more I'm convinced switching them to generals is going to make the game better.
 

doktarr

Wet Blanket
16 Badges
Aug 3, 2003
2.071
33
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
idontlikeforms said:
The 1 other problem here that will need to be solved is what to do about Portuguese ownership of Gibraltar or Granada for that matter. I think we will need to make an event set that cedes Gibraltar back to Granada, if it is taken, for a price of say 200 ducats. Granada will of course have to take loans for this but a human Granada will undoubtedly quit if he loses one of his 2 provinces here. So no problem there. And an AI Granada if he loses Gibraltar is going to die anyways. This event should be province specific for ownership of Gibraltar only up to the last Spanish event effecting the expulsion of the moors etc. So it will work for any owner of Gibraltar besides Castile, Spain, or Granada.

As far as non-Granadan, Castilian, or Spanish ownership of Granada, there will have to be made a similar province cedeing event for 200 ducats to Spain or Castile. It should not be able to be triggered by Granadan ownership of course. Also there will have to be events triggered by these cessession events that minus 200 ducats from the appropriate targets treasury and most importantly they must be AI only events so humans won't be effected by all of this.
It seems to me that the first event you suggest is more or less extraneous, and the second event makes more sense. I don't see any Christian nation selling Gibraltar back to Granada, but I have no trouble imagining them selling it to Castille, even as early as the 1420s. That would seem to handle the problem.
 

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
idontlikeforms said:
Ya a peace command would come in handy. Johan if he wants to could make us AGCEEPers very very happy. There's alot of things he could do to help besides just this too.
Yep. He could add a trigger to see whether a province was a capital of a particular nation or not. I've been asking for that since 1.06 atleast.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
doktarr said:
It seems to me that the first event you suggest is more or less extraneous, and the second event makes more sense. I don't see any Christian nation selling Gibraltar back to Granada, but I have no trouble imagining them selling it to Castille, even as early as the 1420s. That would seem to handle the problem.

This sounds good. I like this. If a human is playing Granada, he wil quit if he loses Gibraltar to portugal in a war anyways. But we need to make sure Portugal gets something for it. Gibraltar is not worthless, especialy to Spain/Castile. I think the 200 ducats is appropriate even though it will force Spain/Castile to take a loan.
 

unmerged(6159)

Field Marshal
Oct 23, 2001
9.458
0
Visit site
Wow, a lot to respond to....

idontlikeforms said:
This is happening because Portugal is meeting the criterias that the Castilian/Spanish AI has for DOWing another country. The way it is meeting this criterias is both through CBs and low relations. Both of these are being given to Castile/Spain through events, both random and AGCEEP events. Obviously we can't fix the random events but we can fix the AGCEEP created events that are causing this.

There are 2 major event sets that are giving the castilian/Spanish AI a justification for DOWing Portugal by it's given criteria....
I'd just point out that we have a long standing problem with 15th century Castille (and it's present in vanilla too). In order to prevent them from knocking off Granada in 1420 we have done several things. But this leaves them without a target. For a while they would always go after Aragon. Now it seems they go after Portugal. None of this is good, and I wonder if just letting them go after Granada might not be better. That, and fleshing out the Civil Wars to make them tougher on Castille might keep them occupied. Sure it's nice if Granada lasts longer. But I wonder if the cure isn't worse than the disease.

First of all let me explain how the first one is even eligable to be triggered. The Portuguese AI after it's war with Morocco is often deciding that it wants to go to war again. It then looks for the most eligible target. Granada is often meeting it's requirements, by low relations. As near as I can figure they are negative but not even near -200. Portugal is then DOWing Granada. Probably about 3 out of 5 times it is capturing Gibraltar from Granada and then because Granada is so poor and already a vassal of Castile it recieves Gibraltar from Granada in a peace deal. This then triggers one of the events 260007, 260008, or 260009, which were made by Garbon to ensure that Castile/Spain winds up with Gibraltar and Granada around the time of the early 16th century. The A options of these events look like this. =
action_a = {
name = "We shall keep the Muslim lands!"
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 444 value = 5 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 445 value = 5 }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -25 }
command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -25 }
}
This means that 95% of the time Portugal is getting this result when the Portguese AI is successfully taking Gibraltar from Granada in an early war. Which is usually being accomplished in the first 20 years of the game.
Why not just have this event cede the provinces to Castille instead (in the A option, obviously). A better solution would be to stop the Portuguese from going after Granada in the first place, but we haven't been able to do that.

Why does Granada have Gibraltar in the first place? In reality it's so Granada can't be annexed in one war. This isn't a very good reason, and the issue is directly linked to what's going on with Portugal. If Portugal couldn't take Granada they'd probably annex, but then could be forced by event to release Granada as a vassal and get some BB reduction etc.
The next big AGCEEP event that causes problems is this event here. =
#Support Juana (1474)#
event = {
id = 18028 #Triggered by CAS 7110 or 7111#
random = no
country = POR
name = "EVENTNAME18028"
desc = "EVENTHIST18028"
style = 1

action_a = { #Support Juana#
name = "ACTIONNAME18028A"
command = { type = casusbelli which = CAS value = 60 }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -200 }
}
action_b = { #Forget it#
name = "ACTIONNAME18028B"
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 100 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
}
As you can see it is triggered by Castilian events and yep you guessed it they cause negative relations too. The action A here is -200 relations. So it is being selected 95% of the time. This means that unless the Castilian AI has a better target or is already engaged in a war it will then DOW Portugal shortly after this event set takes place. This is why if any of you have been watching the Portuguese AI, like I have been lately, you will have noticed that almost all of Portugal's wars with Castile are taking place in the first 3rd of the 15th century and the beggining of the last 3rd of the 15th century but very rarely in the middle of the 15th century. That's because these events really are causing about 80% of the wars between Castile and Portugal.

The other culprit of these wars is when Spain annexes Aragon. This gives a -50 relation to Portugal and since as you guessd it they are already low because of the support Juana event set I just discussed in the paragraph above this is often bumping Portugal into Spain's hit list as well. If these are corrected this should make a very large difference in the health of the Portuguese AI.
So what's the answer here? Just get rid of the relations? That seems like a decent solution. In reality, of course, the Portugues army invaded Castille over this issue.

As for preventing Portugal from DOWing Granada, I think the best solution is to put all of the portuguese king AIs warmonger settings up to Manuel on 0 and here's why. Portugal needs to engage in 2 wars max. The first 1 is the war it starts with. After this war is ended we want Portugal to engage in 1 other war before 1500 or so and that is a 2nd war with Morocco only if it failed to capture Tangiers.
Huh? What about the war with Castille from 1475-1479? Sure the AI will do better without it, but in real life Portugal engaged in a pretty significant war effort which brought no benefits at all.

This failure conveniently triggers this event here. =
event = {
id = 18005
trigger = {
OR = {
exists = MOR
exists = FEZ
}
NOT = { owned = { province = 732 data = -1 }}
}
random = no
country = POR
name = "EVENTNAME18005"
desc = "EVENTHIST18005"
style = 1

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1437 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1438 }

action_a ={ #Send Expedition#
name = "ACTIONNAME18005A"
command = { type = casusbelli which = MOR value = 12 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = FEZ value = 12 }
command = { type = inf which = -2 value = 8000 }
command = { type = cav which = -2 value = 2000 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = trade value = -250 }
command = { type = naval value = -250 }
}

action_b ={ #No, Save Our Money#
name = "ACTIONNAME18005B"
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = trade value = 250 }
command = { type = naval value = 250 }
command = { type = relation which = MOR value = 35 }
command = { type = relation which = FEZ value = 35 }
}
}
The Portuguese AI will pick action A 95% of the time. I reccomend that this event give a DOW instead of the CB and negative relations, which are unnecessary anyways as Tangiers is claimed by Portugal as a core even at the start of the game. This will force the Portuguese AI to DOW without any warmongering percentages necessary. An AI or human can of course handle it because of the troops being given for free with action A. And these troops should have full morale by the time they are dropped off in north Africa.
Does the temporary CB not affect AI behaviour? I thought it did, and as such adding the casusbelli helped. The problem with the Dow command is that Portugal may already be at war with Morroco or Fez, or they may be allied, and any host of things can go wrong with it. If you've tested this without mishap that's one thing...

Havard originally had a DOW command for Portugal in the Castillian civil war event. It generall caused all sorts of bad things, and his tests are the basis for a lot of the worries about that command on this board.

Ok I'm back. I have some thoughts about Portuguese leaders. For those of you who don't know, the AI does not deliberately use conquistadors in battle. It will only use them to fight accidentally and rarely gives them large troops stacks. Instead the AI makes them explore the areas for expansion that it is ordered to in it's AI file. If it happens to be moving through a war zone on it's way to an unexplored province it will fight but then afterwards keep moving towards it's objective as if no war was actually taken place. As a footnote the AI will use explorers for fighting however.

As a result the use of conquistadors for wars of the AI's is almost entirely useless. Which brings me to my next proposal.
This part is almost certainly correct.

Almeida, Albuquerque, Anaya, and da Cunha should all be switched from conquistadors to generals. This way the AI will use them in wars.

Now for the historical justification part. Conquistadors have 0 stats in europe. And therefore are not useful for wars there. The EU2 crew made it this way as their premise was that the conquistadors are people who rose to positions of merit from humble begginings by conquests outside of europe and therefore stood little likelyhood of having accomplished the same things in europe.

But Albuquerque, Almeida, and da Cunha do not fit this description. They were highly favored leaders by king Manuel and had portugal been involved in european wars at the time they would have undoubtedly both led the Portuguese and distinguished themselves in europe instead. Furthermore they did in fact explore almost nothing. And these 3 commanders did not just do their own thing like Cortes and Pizzaro. They often recieved orders from king Manuel to capture this or that objective next etc. Therefore by EU2 standards they are eligable for generalship.

This of course will hurt human players who enjoy being able to use these leaders to explore Brazil and acquire colonies more quickly and cheaply. They also use them to dump stacks of 20,000 troops into provinces with 2 supply rate. So human Portuguese players will be losing here.
It will also hurt AI colonization, as the AI does manage to take advantage of the conquistadors colonization bonus fairly often. And these guys have great colonization bonuses. But that's a minor point.
However this is petty. They can still use them to attack and can usally pull off wins with 12,000 troops instead of 20,000 just fine. I will keep on the lookout for justifications to make another conquistador or 2, who actually did explore, for this time period or shortly afterwards for the sake of human Portuguese players who may lament the loss of these leaders as conquistadors. But at least the AI will be able to perform in wars much better.
The AI needs to be able to explore too, so a couple of conquistadors would be required anyway.

But my major concenr here is that if you make Albequerque and Almeida into generals without dramatically reducing their stats you completely change the optimal strategy for Portugal. Why send my greatest generals to the far east (or leave them there) when I can use them to conquer Spain and Italy (for example). These are richer, my religion, and help alleviate my massive manpower problems. In MP this decision is a complete no-brainer, and Spain would be foolish not to squash Portugal before these two can be unleashed on her. What you're suggesting radically changes the balance in Europe and makes historical use of these leaders by a human extremely unlikely. You might be able to get the AI to use the 'correctly'.

The idea about different AIs seems to be well worth a try.

Also I have experimented with giving the AI extra DP slider increases just before their conquests and yes it does help alot. I've been thinking alot about the portuguese military at this time in general and just how formidable was it. And as near as I can tell it was pretty darn strong. Man for man they could take just about anybody in the world. They were even a little tougher than Spain's army.
And yet the Spanish beat them in the 1470's....
Because of this we could make a Portuguese military event. This event could be 2 or 1 events depending on what everybody thinks. Portugal would get +3 quality, +3 offensive, and -2 land or so. A description explaining some of their tactics and unique technology that made them so formidable at this time could be added as well. I'm still trying to research this.
Again I'd be worried that this would hurt the AI (too much money spent on forts, not enough mapower, too expensive troops) but if you've tested it that's fine. I don't think offensive (for example) is historically justified at all, the Portuguese were prolific builders of fortifications, but I think that should take second seat to what you're trying to do here. Also might slow humans who are conquering in Europe a bit, which would be good.

Another point I've noticed that if the AI has land tech 5 he does usually do fortification storms. A Portuguese AI that has 5 land tech should be able to kick the crap out of any Indian country much more quickly and easily. It may be worthwhile to give a Portugeuse AI enough land tech in an AI only event to make him be able to make storms in the Portuguese conquest of the Indies period. Another solution would be to make say land tech 3 or be able to make storms. By the way is there a good gameplay reason why AIs should not be able to make storms until land tech 5? At 3 it should stop minor powers from be able to do it for some time still. Besides the long wars just hurt AIs anyways.
As to bumping POR land tech I think it's OK for the AI - the problem for Portugal is that it needs to get to naval 5 for it's explorers to go faster, it needs land 5 to assault, and it needs trade 4 to get it's income going. Helping the AI do this seems fine to me, and perhaps take back the boost in 1550 or so (i.e., trash their land tech investment) if people think it's unfair.


On further reflection, why can't the important guys (Albequerque, Almeida) be conquistadors for human players and generals for the AI?
 

doktarr

Wet Blanket
16 Badges
Aug 3, 2003
2.071
33
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
Isaac Brock said:
On further reflection, why can't the important guys (Albequerque, Almeida) be conquistadors for human players and generals for the AI?
YES YES. I was going to post this. Seems like the obvious solution.
 

unmerged(7597)

squarian at the AGEOD forum
Feb 3, 2002
514
0
Visit site
Isaac Brock said:
On further reflection, why can't the important guys (Albequerque, Almeida) be conquistadors for human players and generals for the AI?

Just what I was thinking as I read through the thread, only to find you'd already said it. It seems like an obvious solution.

Can anyone point me to Havard's experiment with DOWs? I'd like to read what he had to say.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
Isaac Brock said:
Wow, a lot to respond to....


I'd just point out that we have a long standing problem with 15th century Castille (and it's present in vanilla too). In order to prevent them from knocking off Granada in 1420 we have done several things. But this leaves them without a target. For a while they would always go after Aragon. Now it seems they go after Portugal. None of this is good, and I wonder if just letting them go after Granada might not be better. That, and fleshing out the Civil Wars to make them tougher on Castille might keep them occupied. Sure it's nice if Granada lasts longer. But I wonder if the cure isn't worse than the disease.

I think it is worse. Is Granada being a vassal historically justified by the way?

Isaac Brock said:
Why not just have this event cede the provinces to Castille instead (in the A option, obviously). A better solution would be to stop the Portuguese from going after Granada in the first place, but we haven't been able to do that.

Sounds good but Portugal should be compensated with the 200 ducats. Nope and we can't no warmongering setting can prevent it as I've found out.

Isaac Brock said:
Why does Granada have Gibraltar in the first place? In reality it's so Granada can't be annexed in one war. This isn't a very good reason, and the issue is directly linked to what's going on with Portugal. If Portugal couldn't take Granada they'd probably annex, but then could be forced by event to release Granada as a vassal and get some BB reduction etc.

Who owned Gibraltar in 1419? That to me is what matters most.

Isaac Brock said:
So what's the answer here? Just get rid of the relations? That seems like a decent solution. In reality, of course, the Portugues army invaded Castille over this issue.

Well they could be reduced to say -15 or -20 just for historical effect. Giving a CB to Portugal against castile is irrelevant, because Portugal won't DOW them when Castile is so much larger.


Isaac Brock said:
Huh? What about the war with Castille from 1475-1479? Sure the AI will do better without it, but in real life Portugal engaged in a pretty significant war effort which brought no benefits at all.

Well what is more important, that this war be fought or that Portugal looks like what it is supposed to in 1500 and be able to have a chance conquering the Indies? Listen I don't like the idea that the conflict between these 2 countries is being all but erased either but it is by far the lesser of 2 evils. Were talking 50% of the games as is Castile/Spain beats the crap out of Portugal before 1500. This is far more inacurate than this war not taking place.

Look 10 out of 10 times Portugal will lose to Castile/Spain in a war. The Castilian/Spanish AI just keeps sending troops. Castile's/Spain's troop count is like 4 to 1 or higher and it gets even worse the longer the war lasts. I'm speaking from numerous times of watching heart breaking defeats of the Portuguese AI at the hands of the merciless Spainiards. If it wasn't as bad to the extent that it is I would just say oh well once in awhile Portugal will just have to be screwed. But unfortunately it is this bad. I have many times ran the game to 1500 or so to see what Portugal will do with my changes for the Indian Ocean conquest, only to find out that they get screwed long before the Indian Ocean events even get triggered. Fixing this alone will enable me to be able to make new events and playtest them faster for the early 16th century.

Isaac Brock said:
Does the temporary CB not affect AI behaviour? I thought it did, and as such adding the casusbelli helped. The problem with the Dow command is that Portugal may already be at war with Morroco or Fez, or they may be allied, and any host of things can go wrong with it. If you've tested this without mishap that's one thing...

Havard originally had a DOW command for Portugal in the Castillian civil war event. It generall caused all sorts of bad things, and his tests are the basis for a lot of the worries about that command on this board.

You've got a point here but out of all the games I've played I can't remember even once where Morocco was allied with any Iberians other than Granada. Besides if Granada is de-vassalized it will ally with Morocco and Tlemcen and more Iberian-north African wars will take place. But on the off chance that a DOW vs Morroco will happen we can always make the DOW part an AI only event with very specific triggers that will prevent these kinds of problems from happening.

Isaac Brock said:
It will also hurt AI colonization, as the AI does manage to take advantage of the conquistadors colonization bonus fairly often. And these guys have great colonization bonuses. But that's a minor point.

The AI needs to be able to explore too, so a couple of conquistadors would be required anyway.

They do? I rarely see this especially with these 2. And as you know I've run the game many times in the last month or so watching exactly what the AI does with these 2 leaders. Let me tell you what it does. Absolutely nothing that has even a trivial impact on the game. If they were removed from the game for AIs only it would effect the game in no noticable way.

What exactly is the AI supposed to be colonizing with these 2 leaders? What exactly did they colonize in real life?

Listen were having this conversation because EU2 crew made them conquistadors not because they are more correctly catagorized as this by the game's standards.

Isaac Brock said:
But my major concenr here is that if you make Albequerque and Almeida into generals without dramatically reducing their stats you completely change the optimal strategy for Portugal. Why send my greatest generals to the far east (or leave them there) when I can use them to conquer Spain and Italy (for example). These are richer, my religion, and help alleviate my massive manpower problems. In MP this decision is a complete no-brainer, and Spain would be foolish not to squash Portugal before these two can be unleashed on her. What you're suggesting radically changes the balance in Europe and makes historical use of these leaders by a human extremely unlikely. You might be able to get the AI to use the 'correctly'.

Well let's see Spain gets these leaders here. =
historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 09741 }
category = general
name = "el Gran Capitán"
startdate = {
year=1486
}
deathdate = {
year=1515
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 6 #increased from 5
shock = 4
siege = 1
special = 1
remark = "Tercios"
}
historicalleader = {
category = general
id = { type = 6 id = 09742 }
name = "Prospero Colonna"
startdate = {
year=1495
}
deathdate = {
year=1523
}
rank = 1
movement = 3
fire = 3
shock = 4
siege = 0
}
historicalleader = {
category = general
id = { type = 6 id = 09806 }
name = "Old Duke of Alba"
startdate = {
year=1491
}
deathdate = {
year=1531
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
}
And Portugal gets these leaders here. =

Hmm seems to me that in MP Portugal is screwed. Spain will still get these leaders, who definitely don't suck to defend Spain with. Portugal gets all of its free troops in the Indies. They will all have to be shipped back to Portugal. With these free troops no way can Portugal support additional troops being built in Portugal. Spain also has a much higher manpower supply.

If Portugal attacks europeans they will get BB faster. They are still getting 3 non-catholic provinces via cessession and this combined with the BB will screw their stab badly. If they force-annex a catholic they will get this. =
Force-annex a country of same Religious group:*
6

= 6BB

And they are all Catholics in europe because no reformation yet. Isn't Malacca worth more etc? Not to mention that they will have more borders in europe that means more than just Spain will be getting random events that wind up triggering Portugal's eligibility for being DOWed.

What will humans do about it? I'll tell you what. They will wait till Dec. 16 1515 and then kick Portugal's @#$. How is Portugal supposed to hold with all these eligible opponents and no good leaders?

Attacking the Indies will be a much much safer move.

Isaac Brock said:
The idea about different AIs seems to be well worth a try.

I think if we all pay more attention to the AIs and how things effect them then in the not to distant future we won't have to have anymore people popping in here and posting things that say things like our mod is inferior to others because our AIs suck.

Isaac Brock said:
And yet the Spanish beat them in the 1470's....

Spain also had alot more men and Portugal military prowess was yet to hit it's peak. Portugal breech loading cannons alone are a big advantage. And I've read many of the sources for both these countries during the time in question and Portugal was defiinitely stronger. They beat stronger opponents than the spanish. Portuguese opponents had modern weaponry unlike the spanish opponents. They were usually better equipped too. Alot of Spain's troops were criminals but Portugal would strand their criminals in places to be picked up in a few years to be used as interpreters. They used criminals as part of their army at a later date. Portugal's troops overall were more proffessional. The portuguese that served with the Spaniards that I have read about were all considered top knotch soldiers.

Listen Spain did have very good troops but Portugal's were better by a noticable margin in the early 1600s.

Isaac Brock said:
Again I'd be worried that this would hurt the AI (too much money spent on forts, not enough mapower, too expensive troops) but if you've tested it that's fine. I don't think offensive (for example) is historically justified at all, the Portuguese were prolific builders of fortifications, but I think that should take second seat to what you're trying to do here. Also might slow humans who are conquering in Europe a bit, which would be good.

Don't worry too much about this just yet. I've scripted almost all of the AI helps and Indian Ocean events today that I could think of and am going to playtest it and post the results. And I've re-thought some things over. I strongly suspect what I've just made and not yet posted is going to be a huge improvement.

Isaac Brock said:
As to bumping POR land tech I think it's OK for the AI - the problem for Portugal is that it needs to get to naval 5 for it's explorers to go faster, it needs land 5 to assault, and it needs trade 4 to get it's income going. Helping the AI do this seems fine to me, and perhaps take back the boost in 1550 or so (i.e., trash their land tech investment) if people think it's unfair.

I agree I'll post exactly how I'm gonna deal with this soon.

Isaac Brock said:
On further reflection, why can't the important guys (Albequerque, Almeida) be conquistadors for human players and generals for the AI?

Because I like the idea of preventing the massive ahistorical use of these leaders by human Portuguese players that is taking place at present. They use them to explore Brazil before Correos and colonize provinces in Africa and Brazil long before they are supposed to. Or is it that everybody likes their ahistorical ab-use of these leaders and that is more important than historical accuracy.

I have thought of a possible B option to my Conquista event(formerly known as my Enterprise of the Indies event) where Portugal instead of trying to conquer the Indies decides to colonize the new world. In this ficticious option Almeida and Albuquerque are conquistadors, with their same stats too. And Portugal gets other benefits like say 6 colonists, large negative mercantilism DP settings. Perhaps some trade and infra tech as well and any other siginficant benefits I can think of. The B option would sleep all the Indies events. Anybody interested in me added this? Or does everybody want Portugal to go for the Indies 100% of the time as opposed to 95% of the time.

I'm gonna post my AI events set for the Indies in this thread in the near future.
 

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
You've got a point here but out of all the games I've played I can't remember even once where Morocco was allied with any Iberians other than Granada. Besides if Granada is de-vassalized it will ally with Morocco and Tlemcen and more Iberian-north African wars will take place. But on the off chance that a DOW vs Morroco will happen we can always make the DOW part an AI only event with very specific triggers that will prevent these kinds of problems from happening
I can remember several games when Morocco was allied with Portugal and Aragon.
 

EUnderhill

Happy Feet!
25 Badges
Mar 27, 2002
4.679
531
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
Jinnai said:
I can remember several games when Morocco was allied with Portugal and Aragon.
Not to mention a few where Portugal took Andalucia. French invertention is usually to blame.
 

doktarr

Wet Blanket
16 Badges
Aug 3, 2003
2.071
33
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
idontlikeforms said:
Isaac Brock said:
On further reflection, why can't the important guys (Albequerque, Almeida) be conquistadors for human players and generals for the AI?
Because I like the idea of preventing the massive ahistorical use of these leaders by human Portuguese players that is taking place at present. They use them to explore Brazil before Correos and colonize provinces in Africa and Brazil long before they are supposed to. Or is it that everybody likes their ahistorical ab-use of these leaders and that is more important than historical accuracy.
No, I don't like it. But the event chains you're writing will create tons of conflicts in the Indes. This should make folks VERY motivated to use these guys for their historical purposes. If folks still want to use them to explore Brazil... then the conquistadors aren't the problem. We should make sure players WANT to use the conquistadors historically, not force them to do so.

Moreover, at the best-case scenario, making them generals just trades one ahistorical option (exploring Brazil) with another (thrashing Spain and company). Perhaps it is YOU who wants he ahistorical an-use of these leaders? ;)

Isaac's solution is spot-on.
idontlikeforms said:
I have thought of a possible B option to my Conquista event(formerly known as my Enterprise of the Indies event) where Portugal instead of trying to conquer the Indies decides to colonize the new world. In this ficticious option Almeida and Albuquerque are conquistadors, with their same stats too. And Portugal gets other benefits like say 6 colonists, large negative mercantilism DP settings. Perhaps some trade and infra tech as well and any other siginficant benefits I can think of. The B option would sleep all the Indies events. Anybody interested in me added this? Or does everybody want Portugal to go for the Indies 100% of the time as opposed to 95% of the time.
I'm fine with 100%. Some ahistorical fluke is gonna screw it up at least 5% of the time, regardless...
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
doktarr said:
No, I don't like it. But the event chains you're writing will create tons of conflicts in the Indes. This should make folks VERY motivated to use these guys for their historical purposes. If folks still want to use them to explore Brazil... then the conquistadors aren't the problem. We should make sure players WANT to use the conquistadors historically, not force them to do so.

Yes but what your not realizing is that human Portuguese players are getting to do both with these guys. They show up in 1499 and 1500 and then explore/colonize Brazil until it's time to go attack the Indies. Especially with my event sequence which is much much more precise in dates for events than the current one. The fighting can start as early as 1503 before this they explore/colonize Brazil. I know I'm an offender here too. I'm speaking from experience. I very strongly dislike giving a human Portuguese player the best of both worlds.

doktarr said:
Moreover, at the best-case scenario, making them generals just trades one ahistorical option (exploring Brazil) with another (thrashing Spain and company). Perhaps it is YOU who wants he ahistorical an-use of these leaders? ;)

Doktarr as is Spain can stomp Portugal at almost any stage of the game. Spain gets 3 generals and Portugal gets none in the early 16th century. Going around Spain to Italy is a gamble because your spread out. This means lots of potential enemies and in 1516 how will Portugal be able to hold? It wil have no more good leaders. The BB acrrued from this method will be even higher. This means less provinces conquered total.

Giving Albuquerque and Almeida as generals allows Portugal to hold from a human Spain seizing upon the opportunity to hurt a very vulnerable Portugal who has most of his troops in the Indian Ocean.

This proposal should curb ahistorical gameplay not encourage it.

Isaac's solution is spot-on.
I'm fine with 100%. Some ahistorical fluke is gonna screw it up at least 5% of the time, regardless...

Ok. Let's see what some others think about this too.
 

unmerged(6159)

Field Marshal
Oct 23, 2001
9.458
0
Visit site
idontlikeforms said:
I think it is worse. Is Granada being a vassal historically justified by the way?
More or less. I'd say it's more correct than not - they paid a tribute and the kings were more or less tributaries.

Sounds good but Portugal should be compensated with the 200 ducats. Nope and we can't no warmongering setting can prevent it as I've found out.
I have no problem with the compensation. There does need to be an out for a human.

Who owned Gibraltar in 1419? That to me is what matters most.
Castille

Well they could be reduced to say -15 or -20 just for historical effect. Giving a CB to Portugal against castile is irrelevant, because Portugal won't DOW them when Castile is so much larger.
Well it lets a human try.

Well what is more important, that this war be fought or that Portugal looks like what it is supposed to in 1500 and be able to have a chance conquering the Indies? Listen I don't like the idea that the conflict between these 2 countries is being all but erased either but it is by far the lesser of 2 evils. Were talking 50% of the games as is Castile/Spain beats the crap out of Portugal before 1500. This is far more inacurate than this war not taking place.
Sure I agree with that. I just think you're overstating your case a little. It's not implausible that Portugal be thrashed by Castille in this era as it sort of happened in real life.

Look 10 out of 10 times Portugal will lose to Castile/Spain in a war. The Castilian/Spanish AI just keeps sending troops. Castile's/Spain's troop count is like 4 to 1 or higher and it gets even worse the longer the war lasts. I'm speaking from numerous times of watching heart breaking defeats of the Portuguese AI at the hands of the merciless Spainiards. If it wasn't as bad to the extent that it is I would just say oh well once in awhile Portugal will just have to be screwed. But unfortunately it is this bad. I have many times ran the game to 1500 or so to see what Portugal will do with my changes for the Indian Ocean conquest, only to find out that they get screwed long before the Indian Ocean events even get triggered. Fixing this alone will enable me to be able to make new events and playtest them faster for the early 16th century.
Sounds like the Danes and the Swedes :). I agree with your goals here.

You've got a point here but out of all the games I've played I can't remember even once where Morocco was allied with any Iberians other than Granada. Besides if Granada is de-vassalized it will ally with Morocco and Tlemcen and more Iberian-north African wars will take place. But on the off chance that a DOW vs Morroco will happen we can always make the DOW part an AI only event with very specific triggers that will prevent these kinds of problems from happening.
One reason to vassalize Granada in the first place is to prevent them from making alliances that get them into wars with Portugal. I believe this will be a concern if you get rid of the vassalization

Listen were having this conversation because EU2 crew made them conquistadors not because they are more correctly catagorized as this by the game's standards.
Well I disagree with your definition of the standards. Here is mine
-fought all their battles outside Europe OR
-land explorer

How come guys like Clive, Hastings and Carlton for England, Frontenac for France and Nassau-Siegen for Holland are conquistadors? Most are royal appointees as governors of various colonies. The idea that they should come up from the lower classes just doesn't hold for most (Ok it does for Clive :))
Well let's see Spain gets these leaders here. =
historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 09741 }
category = general
name = "el Gran Capitán"
startdate = {
year=1486
}
deathdate = {
year=1515
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 6 #increased from 5
shock = 4
siege = 1
special = 1
remark = "Tercios"
}
historicalleader = {
category = general
id = { type = 6 id = 09742 }
name = "Prospero Colonna"
startdate = {
year=1495
}
deathdate = {
year=1523
}
rank = 1
movement = 3
fire = 3
shock = 4
siege = 0
}
historicalleader = {
category = general
id = { type = 6 id = 09806 }
name = "Old Duke of Alba"
startdate = {
year=1491
}
deathdate = {
year=1531
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
}
And Portugal gets these leaders here. =

Hmm seems to me that in MP Portugal is screwed. Spain will still get these leaders, who definitely don't suck to defend Spain with. Portugal gets all of its free troops in the Indies. They will all have to be shipped back to Portugal. With these free troops no way can Portugal support additional troops being built in Portugal. Spain also has a much higher manpower supply.
Spain has other things to worry about.... And Almeida is much better than any of these guys.

If Portugal attacks europeans they will get BB faster. They are still getting 3 non-catholic provinces via cessession and this combined with the BB will screw their stab badly. If they force-annex a catholic they will get this. =
Force-annex a country of same Religious group:*
6

= 6BB
No need to force annex anything. No need to keep the non-catholic provinces that are ceded. You may not like it but this opens up a very different approach to the game for Portugal. One that has little to do with reality. At the very least their stats must be dramtacally downgraded if they can be used in Europe.
What will humans do about it? I'll tell you what. They will wait till Dec. 16 1515 and then kick Portugal's @#$. How is Portugal supposed to hold with all these eligible opponents and no good leaders?
This part is true, but only if they can last that long. Almeida is a GOD, and Alberquerque isn't too far behind. Leaders make a huge difference, and with an ally Portugal can run amock. No idea who might be a potential ally in an all out ground war to exterminate Spain.... :)

Attacking the Indies will be a much much safer move.
True but mostly irrelevant.

Spain also had alot more men and Portugal military prowess was yet to hit it's peak. Portugal breech loading cannons alone are a big advantage.
I don't buy that argument. Cannon in 1500 were ineffective at best on the battlefield. And the reason everyone was using muzzle loaded cannon until the mid 19th century wasn't because they didn't know how to make a breech loader.

And I've read many of the sources for both these countries during the time in question and Portugal was defiinitely stronger. They beat stronger opponents than the spanish.
Huh? Who exactly did the Portuguese beat? The French army was very strong. the Italians were, if not the most effective soldiers, certainly the most professional. The Ottoman army in Europe was better than anyone else, but clearly inferior to the Spanish. Spanish tactics revolutionized warfare, and were used by everyone for the next 150 years. I'm sorry, but much as the achievements of the Portuguese in the East were very impressive they were not facing European opponents the way the Spanish were. And what exactly was the outcome of the Spanish invasion in 1580?

Portuguese opponents had modern weaponry unlike the spanish opponents. They were usually better equipped too.
Again, huh? France didn't have modern weaponry? Or the Ottomans?

Portugal's troops overall were more proffessional. The portuguese that served with the Spaniards that I have read about were all considered top knotch soldiers.
Which I'm sure is correct, and there were plenty of foreigners in the Tercios. But I take that as evidence of the strength of the Spanish military system rather than an indication of the effectiveness of the Portuguese.

Listen Spain did have very good troops but Portugal's were better by a noticable margin in the early 1600s.
I'm unconvinced.

Because I like the idea of preventing the massive ahistorical use of these leaders by human Portuguese players that is taking place at present. They use them to explore Brazil before Correos and colonize provinces in Africa and Brazil long before they are supposed to. Or is it that everybody likes their ahistorical ab-use of these leaders and that is more important than historical accuracy.
Use of them to colonize is worse than using them to beat enemies all over Europe?

I don't see why you don't like my idea for AI generals, human conqs.
 

unmerged(31425)

Married Man
Jul 2, 2004
2.826
0
Ok. Here it is, event sequence for Portguese AI conquest of the Indies. Please pay attention to whether or not an event is AI only or for both AIs and humans as I don't want to have to point it out each time. All of the old event sequences for Portugal with the Zanj and Goa are deleted. Some of the Malaccan ones are too others are modified. I'll incude my modifed versions of them here too.

First thing that needs to happen is the AI needs to be equipped to have a good chance to conquer the Indies. So I made these AI events.
#Portuguese AI RR reducer#
Code:
event = {
	id = 260061
	trigger = { ai = yes } 
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI RR reducer"
	desc = "Portuguese AI RR reducer"
	style = 2
      date = { year = 1495 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 255 value = -15 }}}
This one will enable the AI to fight non-stop wars from 1505-1515. The AI is very poor at putting down revolts while at war and since he will be at war for a good 10 years, without much rest, and is heavily centralized, we don't want him to die to a civil war.
Code:
event = {
	id = 260058
	trigger = { ai = yes NOT = { land   = 5 }}                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI land 5 check"
	desc = "Portuguese AI land 5 check"
	style = 2
      date = { year = 1504 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = land   value = 5000 }}}
This event ensures that the AI will have seige capabilities. Which I've found it uses sometimes and sometimes not. Plus it will help its troop morale slightly.
Code:
#Portuguese AI army improver#
event = {
	id = 260062
	trigger = { ai = yes }                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI army improver"
	desc = "Portuguese AI army improver"
	style = 2
      date = { year = 1504 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = domestic   which = quality value = 10 }
                 command = { type = domestic   which = land value = -10 }}}
This event will strengthen the morale of both its navy and troops in combat. I've found this helps alot but I think if the Portuguese AI's troop morale can be raised just a tiny bit better it would be ideal. Perhaps lowering serfdom by 2 or so will do the trick. This could be included in this event.

Ok next think that happens is the Conquista event.
Code:
#The Conquista#
event = { 
	 id = 18032
       random = no 
       country = POR 
       style = 1 
       date = { year = 1502 month = january } 
       offset = 90
       deathdate = { month = january year = 1503 }
	 name = "Portuguese Conquest of the Indies" 
       desc = "When Pedro Alvares Cabral returned from the Indies the Portguese King Manuel I realized that it would not be possible to secure trade in spices with India without useing force. He then had the titles of the Lord of the Navigation, Conquests, and Trade of Ethiopia, Arabia, Persia, and India, added to his list of titles. This was confirmed by the Pope and he then began sending armadas and troops east to the Indies to conquer the infidels and secure the trade in spices by force. Many Portuguese as well as people from other countries enlisted to go to the Indies as soldiers on account of king manuel's generous pay."
       action_a = { 
            name = "Let's take the Indies by force!" 
            command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 240 }
            command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 50 }
            command = { type = casusbelli which = ZAN value = 1800 }
            command = { type = casusbelli which = GUJ value = 240 }
            command = { type = addcore which = 756 } # Socotra
            command = { type = addcore which = 505 } # Al-Kharim
            command = { type = addcore which = 763 } # Mombasa
            command = { type = addcore which = 768 } # Mtawa(Mozambique)
            command = { type = provincetax  which = 434 value = -1 }  
            command = { type = provincetax  which = 441 value = -1 } 
            command = { type = provincetax  which = 442 value = -1 }
            command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
            command = { type = ai   which = "POR_Manuelb.ai " }
            command = { type = domestic  which = SERFDOM  value = -1 }}}
The 3 provinces that have -1 tax are Portugal's 3 mainland provinces. This is to reflect the loss of workmen to the Conquista. The serfdom reflects the soldiers and merchants changing the dynamics of society slightly an it will conveniently help troop morale too. The AI command turns the AI that makes Portugal keep it's troops and ships in the Indian Ocean, it works for the boats at least, not 100% sure about the troops yet and yes the AI will send boats back to pick up troops in Portugal. The DIP represents the prestige that Manuel recieved in europe as a result of his papally sanctioned new titles and will help reduce BB too but not by much I've found.

These event sets also kick in about this time.
Code:
#The vassalization of Malindi for Malindi#
	event = {
	id = 260085
	trigger = { exists = POR discovered = 761 discovered = 1133 discovered = 1184 }
	random = no
	country = ARM 
	name = "The vassalization of Malindi"
	desc = "When vasco Da Gama made his first voyage to India, he stopped at Malindi. The ruler of Malindi wanted the Portuguese to assist him against his enemy the city of Angoja. The ruler of Malindi gave him pilots to help him reach India and friendship betwen these two nations was formed."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1497 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "We are now friends with Portugal."
            command = { type = relation   which = POR value = 175 }
            command = { type = relation   which = ZUL value = -100 }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = ZIM }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = ZUL }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = ZAN }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = DEL }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = CYR }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = ETH }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = MAM }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = TUR }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = ADE }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = OMA }
            command = { type = breakvassal which = GUJ }
            command = { type = trigger which = 260063 }}}
#The vassalization of Malindi#
	event = {
	id = 260063
	random = no
	country = POR 
	name = "The vassalization of Malindi"
	desc = "When Vasco Da Gama made his first voyage to India, he stopped at Malindi. The ruler of Malindi wanted the Portuguese to assist him against his enemy the city of Angoja. The ruler of Malindi gave him pilots to help him reach India and friendship betwen these two nations was formed."
	style = 2
	offset = 30
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Accept Malindi as friends."
		command = { type = vassal   which = ARM }
            command = { type = relation   which = ARM value = 175 }
            command = { type = relation   which = ZAN value = -100 }
            command = { type = naval value = 100 }}}

#Portuguese force vassalization of Kilwa#
event = {
	id = 260074
	trigger = { exists = POR discovered = 1253 discovered = 1184 discovered = 1185 }
	random = no
	country = ZAN
	name = "The Portuguese force vassalization of Kilwa."
	desc = "In 1502 the Portguese under Vasco Da Gama attacked Kilwa and forced it to pay tribute."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = July year = 1502 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Damn Portuguese!"
             command = { type = relation   which = POR value = -100 }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = ZIM }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = ZUL }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = ARM }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = DEL }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = CYR }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = ETH }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = MAM }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = TUR }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = ADE }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = OMA }
             command = { type = breakvassal  which = GUJ }
             command = { type = trigger   which = 260073 }}}
#Portuguese force vassalization of Kilwa#
event = {
	id = 260073
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "The Portuguese force vassalization of Kilwa."
	desc = "In 1502 the Portguese under Vasco Da Gama attacked Kilwa and forced it to pay tribute."
	style = 2
	offset = 30
	action_a ={ 
		name = "We'll force them to submit!"
            command = { type = vassal   which = ZAN }}}
These 2 provinces get ceded to Portugal via province specific events.
#Settlement of Mozambique#
Code:
event = {
	id = 260071
	trigger = { exists = POR event = 18032 discovered = 1184 }
	random = no
	province = 768
	name = "The Portuguese settlement at Mozambique"
	desc = "In 1502 Vasco Da Gama, on his 2nd voyage to India, befriended the Sheik of the island of Mozambique and founded a Portuguese settlement there."
	style = 2
	date = { month = june year = 1502 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { month = january year = 1660 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Damn Portuguese!"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POR value = 768 }}}
#cessation of Sofala#
event = {
	id = 260052
	trigger = { exists = POR event = 18032 discovered = 1184 }
	random = no
	province = 770
	name = "The Portuguese Seizure of Sofala"
	desc = "In 1505 the Sheik of Sofala submitted to the Portuguese under the command of Pedro Anaya."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1505 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Damn Portuguese!"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POR value = 770 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 18031 }
            command = { type = trigger   which = 18031 }}}
With these 2 provinces Portugal has a much better chance of grabbing some of Kilwa.

Next thing that happens is the troops show up. There were 3 large groups of troops which were sent to the Indies by Manuel in 1505, 1506, and 1511.
Code:
#Almeida's main force#
	event = {
	id = 18031
	random = no
	country = POR
      date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1505 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1515 }	
	name = "Almeida's main force"
	desc = "In 1505 Francisco Almeida sailed to the Indies with a large force and orders from king Manuel to conquer Kilwa if it refuses to pay tribute to Portugal. Also in 1505 the Sheik of Sofala submitted to the Portuguese under the command of Pedro Anaya."	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Now we'll seize the Indies by force!"
            command = { type = INF which = 770 value = 10000 }
            command = { type = CAV which = 770 value = 2000 }
            command = { type = warships which = 770 value = 3 }
            command = { type = transports which = 770 value = 6 }
            command = { type = INF which = 768 value = 10000 }
            command = { type = CAV which = 768 value = 2000 }
            command = { type = warships which = 770 value = 3 }
            command = { type = transports which = 770 value = 6 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 16275 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 16276 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 09613 }}}
The 2 provinces are Mtawa(Mozambique) and Nampuia(Sofala). Here are the 3 leaders.
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 16275 }
	category = admiral
	name = "Lourenco Almeida"
	startdate = {
		year=1505 
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1510
	}
	
	rank = 2
	movement = 5
	fire = 5
	shock = 5
	dormant = yes
      location = 770
	}
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 16276 }
	category = general
	name = "Pedro Anaya"
	startdate = {
		year=1505 
	}
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 09613 }
	category = general
	name = "Francisco de Almeida"
	startdate = {
		year=1505
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1510 month = march
	}
	rank = 1
	movement = 6
	fire = 4
	shock = 5
	siege = 2
      dormant = yes
}
Recognize the last one? Almeida is switched to a General. The 2 generals will show up in these 2 provinces as long as there are no other Portuguese armies at the time that are larger than 10,000, which is usually the case. The AI will then use them in war. I know this because I've tested it and yes they make a BIIIIIIIIG difference too.

Next this DOW event triggers if Kilwa dares to break vassalization, and they usually do of course.
Code:
#Portuguese AI war vs Kilwa#
event = {
	id = 260070
	trigger = { event = 18031 ai = yes NOT = { vassal   = { country = POR country = ZAN }} OR = { owned = { province = 768 data = -1 } owned = { province = 770 data = -1 }}}                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI war vs Kilwa"
	desc = "Portuguese AI war vs Kilwa"
	style = 2
      date = { year = 1505 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = war  which = ZAN }}}
If Kilwa is being a good boy or the war with Kilwa is over then this event will trigger.
Code:
#Portuguese AI war vs Mombasa#
event = {
	id = 260076
	trigger = { event = 18031 ai = yes NOT = { war   = { country = POR country = ZAN }} OR = { owned = { province = 768 data = -1 } owned = { province = 770 data = -1 }}}                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI war vs Mombasa"
	desc = "Portuguese AI war vs Mombasa"
	style = 2
      date = { month = july year = 1505 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = war  which = ZUL }}}
Next step the 2nd wave of reinforcements shows up.
Code:
#arrival of Da Cunha and Albuquerque#
event = {
	id = 260060
	random = no
	country = POR 
	name = "reinforcements to the Indies led by Tristao Da Cunha"
	desc = "In 1506 Tristao Da Cunha left to the Indies with Afonso Albuquerque with orders to capture Socotra."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1506 }
	offset = 30
      deathdate = { year = 1516 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Great!"
            command = { type = INF which = 770 value = 10000 }
            command = { type = CAV which = 770 value = 2000 }
            command = { type = warships which = 770 value = 3 }
            command = { type = transports which = 770 value = 6 }
            command = { type = INF which = 768 value = 10000 }
            command = { type = CAV which = 768 value = 2000 }
            command = { type = warships which = 770 value = 3 }
            command = { type = transports which = 770 value = 6 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 16264 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 09611 }}}
Here are the 2 leaders.
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 09611 }
	category = general
	name = "Afonso de Albuquerque"
	startdate = {
		year=1506
	}
	deathdate = {day = 16
		month = december
		year=1515
	}
	rank = 1
	movement = 5
	fire = 5
	shock = 5
	siege = 1
      dormant = yes
}
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 16264 }
	category = general
	name = "Tristão da Cunha"
	startdate = {
		year=1506
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1513
	}
	rank = 2
	movement = 4
	fire = 4
	shock = 4
	siege = 1
	location = 768
	dormant = yes
	}
They are both switched to generals for the same reason as Almeida.

Next I made another AI DOW event for Oman, but I dislike it as I've found out that if Oman has a large alliance than the Portuguese AI will waste alot of troops and money accomplishing nothing. Therefore I'm going to make a vassalization event that works just like Kilwa's(and historically it did too). This will break Oman/Ormuz's alliance and then if the Portuguese AI DOWs it because the trigger is met just like with Kilwa, Portugal will only have to fight Oman/Ormuz and it will be easier and not waste as many troops also zacharym87 is re-working Arabia and will increase the tax of all the provinces here by 1 or 2 each and this will help alot too.

However I intend that the Portuguese AI not attack Oman/Ormuz often even if they break vassalage, because the next step when, zacharym87 makes Mahra, will be to have a Mahra check event to see if Mahra owns Socotra and if so the Portuguese AI will DOW Mahra instead and the Oman/Ormuz war will probably never happen, at least not in 1505-1515.

As for Socotra if Portugal captures it this event will trigger.
Code:
#seizure of Socotra#
event = {
	id = 260055
	trigger = { exists = POR event = 18032 control   = { province = 756 data = POR }}
	random = no
	province = 756
	name = "The Portuguese Seizure of Socotra"
	desc = "In 1507 the portuguese under Tristao Da Cunha captured Socotra with the intention of using it as a base to prey on muslim merchant ships sailing to the Red Sea and the Malabar Coast."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1507 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Damn Portuguese!"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POR value = 756 }}}
If you want to know why read the last 12 or so posts in the Portugal and Indian Ocean nations thread. I am also going to make an event where if Porugal owns Socotra it will give them 100 ducats and 5 VP to reflect their profits from piracy off this base and to justify Portuguese seizure of it financially.

The next event is this one here. =
Code:
#arrival of Timoja#	
event = { 
	 id = 260053
       random = no 
       country = POR 
       style = 1 
       date = { year = 1510 month = january } 
       offset = 90
       deathdate = { day = 1 month = july year = 1510 }
	 name = "Timoja" 
       desc = "In 1510 Afonso Albuquerque set out from Cochin with a fleet to sail to the Red Sea, prey on muslim shipping, and attack the fleet of the Sultan of Egypt, when Timoja, a Hindu pirate told him that the ruler of Goa had recently died and their was turmoil there with the ascension of his son and if Albuquerque attacked Goa he could seize it easily."
       action_a = { 
            name = "Attack Goa now!" 
            command = { type = addcore which = 549 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 16277 }
            command = { type = trigger   which = 260054 }}
       action_b = {
            name ="Focus on destroying muslim shipping first."
             command = { type = addcore which = 549 }}}
Here'sthe leader for it. =
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 16277 }
	category = explorer
	name = "Timoja"
	startdate = {
		year=1510 month = january
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1512
	}
	
	rank = 4
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 3
	dormant = yes
      location = 756
	}
Option A will trigger this. =
Code:
#seizure of Goa#
event = {
	id = 260054
	random = no
	province = 549
	name = "The Portuguese Seizure Goa"
	desc = "In 1510 the portuguese under Albuquerque seized Goa, which was in a vulnerable state due to it's rulers recent death and trumoil created by the ascension of it's new ruler."
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Damn Portuguese!"
		command = { type = relation which = POR value = -100 }
            command = { type = secedeprovince which = POR value = 549 }
            command = { type = casusbelli   which = POR value = 36 }}}
If Portugal picks option A in event 260053 or captures Goa at a later date this event will be triggered here. =
Code:
#COT in Goa#
event = { 
	 id = 260057
       random = no 
       country = POR 
	 trigger = { owned = { province = 549 data = -1 } control = { province = 549 data = -1 } }
       style = 1 
       date = { day = 1 month = june year = 1493 } 
       offset = 90
	 deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }
	 name = "Market plans for Goa" 
       desc = "In 1510 the Shah of Bijapur intended to fortify Goa, build a large navy there to expel the Portuguese from the Malabar Coast, and make Goa a rich center of trade. His plans were cut short however when the Portuguese under Albuqueruqe seized Goa before he could execute all of his plans The Portuguese then built up Goa as a center of trade, by forcing Indian Ocean merchants to be able to trade certain commodities like Arabian horses only at Goa."
       action_a = { 
            name = "Goa becomes the trade capital of India" 
            command = { type = cot  which = 549 }
            command = { type = removecot  which = 541 }
            command = { type = removecot  which = 569 }}}
This closes the COTs in Kerala and Kutch and opens 1 in Goa. Goa needs it's tax raised to at least 12. I reccommended this previously and I have a later event made which I've posted in the Portugal and Indian ocean nation's thread that takes away 2 tax. I reccommend Goa be raised to 14 tax in 1419. This will help Portugal in wars with Mahra, Oman/Ormuz, and Malacca by quite a bit and besides it's historically justified.

The extra tax for those of you who don't know, increases the chance that the Portuguese AI will levy troops in Goa as well as the amount of troops it will levy. Otherwise it has to ship them from Portugal and the Azores and this hurts its performance in long distance wars if it has taken too many casualties.

After these events there is an event set for Malacca. It starts with this. =
Code:
event = {
	id = 18012
	random = no
	country = POR
	trigger = { exists = MLC discovered = 677 }
	name = "EVENTNAME18012"
	desc = "EVENTHIST18012"
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1511 }
	offset = 60
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1670 }
	action_a ={		#Forcefully control spice trade#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3268A"
		command = { type = relation  which = MLC  value = -200 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 677 }}
	action_b ={		#Negotiate trading rights#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3268B"
		command = { type = relation  which = MLC  value = 50 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 60003 }}}
This event triggers this Malaccan event here. =
Code:
#The Portuguese covet Malacca!# 
event = { 
	id = 60003 
	random = no 
	country = MLC 
	trigger = { event = 18012 }
	name = "EVENTNAME60003" 
	desc = "EVENTHIST60003" 
	style = 2 
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 } 
	offset = 30 
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1680 } 
	action_a ={ #Ok# 
		name = "ACTIONNAME60003A" 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = POR value = 600 }}}
Then Portugal recieves this reinforcement event in Goa. =
Code:
#The reinforcements of Jorge de Melo Pereira and Garcia de Noronha#
event = {
	id = 260069
	random = no
	country = POR 
	name = "The reinforcements of Jorge de Melo Pereira and Garcia de Noronha"
	desc = "In 1511 Jorge de Melo and Garcia de Noronha arrived in India with a large force. They were sent by king Manuel because he believed that Afonso Albuquerque was dead and that a large fleet was being prepared by the mamelukes to attack the Portuguese in India. When Albuquerque saw how many men arrived from Portugal with these two captains, he decided to attack Malacca."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1511 }
	offset = 30
      deathdate = { year = 1516 }	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Finally help has arrived!"
            command = { type = INF   which = 549 value = 10000 }
            command = { type = CAV   which = 549 value = 4000 }
            command = { type = warships   which = 549 value = 3 }
            command = { type = transports   which = 549 value = 7 }
            command = { type = wakeleader which = 16279 }}}
Here is the leader. =
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 16279 }
	category = general
	name = "Garcia de Noronha"
	startdate = {
		year=1511
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1515 month = september
	}
	rank = 3
	movement = 4
	fire = 3
	shock = 4
	siege = 1
	dormant = yes
	}
He was Albuquerque's nephew, his right hand man, and later the viceroy. I may alter his stats. I got alot of information on his activities at this time and I'm gonna research it later on and adjust it as seems best to me.

Next the AI will have this event here. =
Code:
#Portuguese AI war vs Malacca#
event = {
	id = 260075
	trigger = { event = 260069 ai = yes owned = { province = 549 data = -1 }  NOT = { war   = { country = POR country = ZAN }} NOT = { war   = { country = POR country = ZUL }}  NOT = { war   = { country = POR country = OMA }}}                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Portuguese AI war vs Malacca"
	desc = "Portuguese AI war vs Malacca"
	style = 2
      date = { year = 1511 } 
	offset = 60
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1516 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Portuguese AI check"
                 command = { type = war  which = MLC }}}
And the last event of the Conquests will be this one here.
Code:
#Portuguese Indian empire firmly established#
event = { 
	 id = 260059
       random = no 
       country = POR 
       style = 1 
       date = { year = 1516 month = january } 
       offset = 90
	 name = "The accomplishments of Afonso Albuqueruqe" 
       desc = "Shortly before Afonso Albuquerque died in December of 1515, Albuquerque sailed to Ormuz and recieved its ruler as a vassal. When He died Ormuz, Goa, and Malacca were securely in Portguese hands. Dominance of the Indies by Portugal was firmly established."
       action_a = { 
            name = "The Indies are under our control!" 
            command = { type = DIP which = 3 value = 120 }
            command = { type = vassal which = OMA }
            command = { type = badboy value = -10 }
            command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = -1 }}}
This is an important event. It reflects a key change in the Indies historical period as the next viceroys did no where near as much as Albuquerque and the countries around the Indian Ocean began to accept Portuguese domination of the region. Also the BB reducer is critical without it Portugal stab hits are atrocious, expect 4 years a pop and plenty of superpower random events reducing the stab at a faster rate than you can raise it, and if the AIs DOW Portugal you're gonna have to quit restart and grab a few less provinces next game. So this -10 BB is a game saver, without it your Portuguese games will end around 1550 with much frustration just about every time if you follow the historical path of Portugal. And yes, sadly, I'm speaking from experience and not conjecturing.

As you can see Oman is again vassalized here. This is historical too, although after zacharym87 re-works Arabia, a cessession shortly after of Oman/Ormuz will probably be added, with a loophole for humans of course.

The AI will kick the crap out of Kilwa and Mombasa plain and simple. Oman and Malacca are a little harder, but it should take them out sometimes too. Oman/Ormuz will be vassalized/annexed anyways so no problems there. I anticipate the Portuguese AI will beat up on Mahra pretty easily too.

I created some AI file tweaks that will need to go along with all of this too. Pretty basic stuff I don't expect any objections on them.

There are more Portugal events in the Indian Ocean that I've made giving Ternate as vassals and a take over of Ceylon sequence too. I've reworked some of these since I last posted them but I think everyone was in agreement with them so no problems there.

I doubt the DP settings will need to be re-worked as a revolting Oman and war with a major european power, as a trigger for this, will probably devestate a Portugal that has quality 10 as it's manpower despite it's high income will be pittifully low and it wil be attacked from too many places at once. So I figure its gonna be best to leave them unless a noticable problem arises from leaving them as is.

One problem I encountered while playtesting this, Socotra and Nampuia switched their culture on their own to Portuguese. This is ahistorical. Does anybody know what setting causes this? It will need to be changes to prevent this from happening. I'm assuming that they are somehow categorized as colonies when they shouldn't be.

By the way Isaac, Portugal gets naval 5 or higher almost everytime by the time of the conquest as is. This is because of the naval manufactory in Algarve with option A of the 1419 event for Henry. So if we make an event to fix a low naval tech it will have to look like my land tech 5 checker near the top of this post, and it will probably rarely need to fire.

Look forward to everyones feedback. Anyone is free totry these events out but use my Kilwa nation setup too or they just won't work.
 
Last edited: