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Toio

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the knights only home where they where accepted by the populace is malta, should we make the following changes ?..........i do not think that countrysize should be included

#(1523-1798) The Knights request the help of Spain
#by Fodoron
event = {
id = 201000
trigger = {
exists = TUR
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 819 data = SPA } #Malta
control = { province = 819 data = SPA } #Malta
NOT = {
countrysize = 2
war = { country = KNI country = SPA }
vassal = { country = KNI country = SPA }
vassal = { country = SPA country = KNI }
}
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 819 data = ARG } #Malta
control = { province = 819 data = ARG } #Malta
NOT = {
countrysize = 2
war = { country = KNI country = ARG }
vassal = { country = KNI country = ARG }
vassal = { country = ARG country = KNI }
}
}
}
}
random = no
country = KNI
name = "EVENTNAME201000" #The Knights request the help of Spain
desc = "EVENTHIST201000"
#-#A huge fleet is being readied at Constantinople. Our spies inform us that the Ottoman sultan will soon assault Rhodes to destroy us once and for all. Perhaps the Emperor can find another place for us...

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1523 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1798 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME201000A" #We did what we could to defend Rhodes
command = { type = vp value = -5 }
command = { type = trigger which = 285124 } #SPA: Generous offer to the Hospitallers
command = { type = trigger which = 111034 } #ARG: Generous offer to the Hospitallers
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME201000B" #We will never leave Rhodes
command = { type = vp value = 5 }
}
}


.................
even if they own a province elsewhere , the knights can still get to it via malta
 

Therion

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There is no reason for KNI to migrate to Malta if they still retain their homeland, let alone more than two provinces. I know the mod tries to simulate a historical outcome by giving them Malta despite holding Rhodes and then ceding Rhodes to OE (since it is very difficult for AI to take islands). But I cannot imagine a scenario in which KNI conquer a number of provinces and still be given Malta.

I'd personally prefer a strait from Asia Minor to Rhodes and giving Malta to KNI if and only if (and when) KNI do not exist.
 

Toio

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There is no reason for KNI to migrate to Malta if they still retain their homeland, let alone more than two provinces. I know the mod tries to simulate a historical outcome by giving them Malta despite holding Rhodes and then ceding Rhodes to OE (since it is very difficult for AI to take islands). But I cannot imagine a scenario in which KNI conquer a number of provinces and still be given Malta.

I'd personally prefer a strait from Asia Minor to Rhodes and giving Malta to KNI if and only if (and when) KNI do not exist.

From what I read the Greeks did not want the Knights in Rhodes, the disagreement between the Catholic Knights ( who fully did what the Pope asked of them) and the Greek orthodox church in constantinople , This started when On 15 August, 1310, under the leadership of Grand Master Foulques de Villaret, the Knights of St. John captured the island in spite of the Greek emperor, Andronicus II appeal to leave it. This is the reason that no rhodian fought for the Knights.

Anyway, I feel for the game, it would be far better for TUR and the KNI if the knights went to malta,
 

Therion

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You are wrong. Some Rhodiots fought for the Knights and even accompanied them when they moved to Malta, populating the relatively desolate harbour regions. In fact, Malta's population suddenly increased by 1/5 when the Knights moved in. This is also attested to this day by some Maltese surnames being Rhodiot in origin.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in question, which is: Should the Knights get Malta if they somehow manage to set up a modest empire in the Eastern Mediterranean? My answer is no for the reasons I've already given.
 

Toio

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You are wrong. Some Rhodiots fought for the Knights and even accompanied them when they moved to Malta, populating the relatively desolate harbour regions. In fact, Malta's population suddenly increased by 1/5 when the Knights moved in. This is also attested to this day by some Maltese surnames being Rhodiot in origin.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in question, which is: Should the Knights get Malta if they've set up a modest empire in the Eastern Mediterranean?

I did read that 4000 rhodian went to crete after the knights went to malta, but if you say some went to malta also, then i believe you.

the game issue is that the KNI are better placed in malta than rhodes, they can take some part of north africa, have support form th "christian west" and the TUR are also better off, in that they can progress along historical paths and not worry about a thorn called rhodes.
 

Therion

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This is local, "obvious" history for me but I'm sure you can find more information on the net if you are interested rather than rely solely on faith in what I say. :)

From a quick Google search:

"In their report of 1524, the eight Hospitaller commissioners who were sent to Malta on the Orders' behalf before they settled in Malta, established Maltese population of 17,000 people. According to Bosio1 (the historian of the Order of St.John), by the end of October 1530, population had increased to 25,000, one-fifth of whom were the newly settled knights and some Rhodians who followed them to Malta."

http://www.aboutmalta.com/history/knightspop.shtml

"Some Rhodiot surnames, including Marmara, Drago, Ros (Ross) and Ruggier (de Rogeriis) survived down to the present."

http://www.searchmalta.com/surnames/marmara/index.shtml


the game issue is that the KNI are better placed in malta than rhodes, they can take some part of north africa, have support form th "christian west" and the TUR are also better off, in that they can progress along historical paths and not worry about a thorn called rhodes.
Yes, but what if a human plays the Knights? Should he be forced to forfeit all his possessions in the East order to move to Malta? From an AI point of view, that may be reasonable since an AI OE is not expected to take the island but, even in this case, there should still be a sizelimit. Imagine a scenario in which a 10-province KNI secedes all of its possessions to the OE in order to move the Malta... Too much historical determinism can become senseless from a gameplay pov.
 

Toio

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This is local, "obvious" history for me but I'm sure you can find more information on the net if you are interested rather than rely solely on faith in what I say. :)

From a quick Google search:

"In their report of 1524, the eight Hospitaller commissioners who were sent to Malta on the Orders' behalf before they settled in Malta, established Maltese population of 17,000 people. According to Bosio1 (the historian of the Order of St.John), by the end of October 1530, population had increased to 25,000, one-fifth of whom were the newly settled knights and some Rhodians who followed them to Malta."

http://www.aboutmalta.com/history/knightspop.shtml

"Some Rhodiot surnames, including Marmara, Drago, Ros (Ross) and Ruggier (de Rogeriis) survived down to the present."

http://www.searchmalta.com/surnames/marmara/index.shtml



Yes, but what if a human plays the Knights? Should he be forced to forfeit all his possessions in the East order to move to Malta? From an AI point of view, that may be reasonable since an AI OE is not expected to take the island but, even in this case, there should still be a sizelimit. Imagine a scenario in which a 10-province KNI secedes all of its possessions to the OE in order to move the Malta... Too much historical determinism can become senseless from a gameplay pov.

I am not saying for the KNI to give up everything if they own more than just rhodes, I am saying they retain what they have , but ONLY give rhodes to the TUR for Mata from SPA.

Maybe gamewise , this is bad as maybe the TUR cannot take malta once they have taken other KNI holdings.
 

unmerged(40707)

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@Toio: why should the Knights cede Rhodes if they are powerful enough to keep it? Countrysize condition is for historical purpose. If the Knights own another province, it could even be in the neighborhood of Rhodes... A player will not appreciate such forced move. See the title of the event: The Knights request the help of Spain.

I disagree with the removal of this conditon (btw, you forgot the first occurrence in the trigger).

I'd personally prefer a strait from Asia Minor to Rhodes and giving Malta to KNI if and only if (and when) KNI do not exist.
I often see Knights annexed by the Turks long before 1523 after a naval assault. Nevertheless, things can become harder if there is a medium fortress in Rhodes. I don't see the need of a strait.

Malta is never ceded to the Knights if they don't "need" it.
 

Toio

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@Toio: why should the Knights cede Rhodes if they are powerful enough to keep it? Countrysize condition is for historical purpose. If the Knights own another province, it could even be in the neighborhood of Rhodes... A player will not appreciate such forced move. See the title of the event: The Knights request the help of Spain.

I disagree with the removal of this conditon (btw, you forgot the first occurrence in the trigger).

I often see Knights annexed by the Turks long before 1523 after a naval assault. Nevertheless, things can become harder if there is a medium fortress in Rhodes. I don't see the need of a strait.

Malta is never ceded to the Knights if they don't "need" it.

ok , leave it as it is

but do we amend the TUR Ai files to add KNI on combat list because the last time they appear is in 1566 file ?

should we at least place the KNI on the other TUR ai files until the year 1700 ?
 

Therion

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but do we amend the TUR Ai files to add KNI on combat list because the last time they appear is in 1566 file ?

should we at least place the KNI on the other TUR ai files until the year 1700 ?
That may be acceptable if KNI remain at Rhodes but if they move to Malta, it can provide awkward results. After all, that 1566 date represents the Great Siege of Malta of 1565, after which the Ottomans never bothered to invade again.
 

Toio

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That may be acceptable if KNI remain at Rhodes but if they move to Malta, it can provide awkward results. After all, that 1566 date represents the Great Siege of Malta of 1565, after which the Ottomans never bothered to invade again.

we just need to try it out as I have every game after 1566 with KNI in rhodes plus another province ( usually taurus) and never a war with TUR anymore, even though TUR has a core on both rhodes and taurus.

TUR might have too many on its combat list at the time
 

unmerged(40707)

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Yes, Turks have a core on Rhodes but Knights could be allied with Spain in this case, for example. Turks could avoid DoWing such an alliance...
 
Last edited:

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Siege of Malta event chain

In my current game the spanish event for the Siege of Malta fired and triggered the Knights follow-up event.

However noone was besieging Malta :wacko:

I as the Ottoman Empire was at war with the Order of St. John (which triggered the event) but I was besieging Tripolis that was still owned and controlled by the Knights after Spain granted it to them when suddenly Malta was crawling with soldiers from the spanish aid event which I could see as my navy was patrolling Tripolis.

The spanish soldiers that should aid the Knights defending Malta arrived immediately by airmail triggered by the spanish event - when in reality the siege lasted from may to septembre before the reinforcements arrived. :D


I could see several changes to these events.

As Malta is the capital of the Knights immediate aid is not necessary when the Ottomans are at war with them and the Knights still own more than 1 province.

So I would suggest that the trigger checks that the knights don´t own Tripolis or other provinces. If they still do they are not in immediate danger to vanish as a 2nd war would be necessary to annex them.

According to WIKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565) especially
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565)#Panic
the spanish managed to send the huge number of 600 men at once and 8000 only months later because they were still being levied.

So I suggest to have only a small number of spanish soldiers sppear immediately in Malta. The larger part of the spanish soldiers should either appear later OR could be represented by a gain in manpower (not permanent provincial manpower but +manpowerpool!) for the Knights. Let them recruit the soldiers themselves on Malta representing the long delay in the arrival.

Those soldiers that appear immediately in Malta should be added to the spanish event as desertions similar to the Mamluck event that can send aid to Granada. Any gain in manpower to the Knights should mean a loss in manpower to the spanish.

Just to avoid even worse curiosities: The Knights could have ahistorically decided to move their capital to Tripolis and lost Malta. So the trigger should check that KNI owns Malta.

Refusing to aid the Knights should have much severe penalties. If what WIKI states was true then a possible fall of Malta was seen as the beginning of turkish invasions of Italy and Europe. So I could see not only negative relations with the Knights (and not only -50 but the full range of -400 being on the verge of annihilation against the enemy of christendom) but with all catholic nations bordering the mediterrenean especially the pope. Perhaps even a negative hit to the diplomacy rating of spain.

Code:
#(1523-1640) The great siege of Malta
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285127
	trigger = {
		[color=yellow]OR = {[/color] 
                       war = { country = KNI country = TUR } #Ottomans
                       [color=yellow]war = { country = KNI country = ALD } #Algier
                          } [/color]
		[color=yellow]owned = { province = 819 data = KNI } #Malta[/color]
		NOT = { 
                        war = { country = KNI country = SPA } 
                        [color=yellow]owned = { province = 740 data = KNI } #Tripolis[/color][color=red]}[/color]
		[color=red]NOT = {[/color]
			core = { province = 819 data = -1 } #Malta donated
		         }
	             }
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285127" #The great siege of Malta
	desc = "EVENTHIST285127"
	#-#It was just a matter of time before the Ottomans attacked Malta. In May 1565, a powerful fleet from the Ottomans and their allies the Barbary pirates, arrived to the island and landed an army of 40,000. Against them were 540 knights, 400 Spaniards and 4,000 Maltese. Fort St. Elmo lasted 5 weeks of furious fights until almost all its defenders were killed. By then 600 Spaniards from Sicily had arrived to the city. The fighting continued all summer taking the lives of 5000 defenders with the Turkish loses three times higher, including the famous pirate Dragut. In early September, when the defenders were at their last resistance, help from Spain finally arrived under command of Álvaro de Bazán and García de Toledo. The Turks, low on morale, panicked and abandoned the island.

	date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1523 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1640 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285127A" #Help the Knights
		command = { type = trigger which = 201011 } #KNI: Spanish help
		command = { type = trigger which = 285150 } #SPA: Tercios del mar
		command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
                [color=yellow]command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 600 } 
                command = { type = manpower   value = -8 }[/color]
                            }
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285127B" #They should solve their own problems
		command = { type = trigger which = 201012 } #KNI: Spain refuses to help
		command = { type = relation which = KNI value = -50 }
	}
}
#(1523-1640) Tercios del mar
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285150 #triggered by SPA_285117 A
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285150" #Tercios del mar
	desc = "EVENTHIST285150"
	#-#Spain was the first nation in the world to create a permanent specific naval infantry unit in 1537. This was the Old Company of the Sea of Naples composed by harquebusiers to fight on board of galleys. In the winter of 1564, spies informed of a powerful Ottoman fleet being readied in Constantinople. On May 18, 1565 their target is revealed when the Janissaries land in Malta. Already two weeks before, Álvaro de Bazán had gone from the strait to Barcelona to embark 4,000 soldiers. The Mediterranean galleys of Gil de Andrade joined him at Palamós, and 1.500 more soldiers were embarked in Genoa. On July 20, they arrived to Naples to embark more forces, and they were in Messina on August 5, for the final assembly with further auxiliary forces. Finally on August 25, the Viceroy of Sicily, García de Toledo, gave the order to depart, arriving to Malta on September 7, forcing the Ottomans to lift their siege on the exact same day they had scheduled their final full out assault on the few defenders left alive. Had they arrived one day later, Malta would have been lost. It was clear to Felipe II that a reaction time of four months was not acceptable, and that Spain could not project her power far away unless a permanent army capable of landing and conducting battles was assigned to the Navy and could be quickly deployed. So in February 1566 he created the Tercio de la Armada del Mar Oceano, or Tercio of the Navy of the Ocean Sea, also known as Tercio de Figueroa for his first Field Marshal, and formed by 6,700 soldiers. harquebusiers from this unit were the first to assault the Sultana, the Ottoman flagship, in the battle of Lepanto, and as a reward, its commander Lope de Figueroa was given the commission to inform the King of the victory.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285150A" #Send the marines
		command = { type = treasury value = -150 }
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 1 }
		command = { type = naval value = 500 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285150B" #We don't have the money
		command = { type = vp value = -5 }
	}
}


#(1523-1640) Spanish help
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 201011 #triggered by SPA_285127 A
	random = no
	country = KNI
	name = "EVENTNAME201011" #Spanish help
	desc = "EVENTHIST285127"
	#-#It was just a matter of time before the Ottomans attacked Malta. In May 1565, a powerful fleet from the Ottomans and their allies the Barbary pirates, arrived to the island and landed an army of 40,000. Against them were 540 knights, 400 Spaniards and 4,000 Maltese. Fort St. Elmo lasted 5 weeks of furious fights until almost all its defenders were killed. By then 600 Spaniards from Sicily had arrived to the city. The fighting continued all summer taking the lives of 5000 defenders with the Turkish loses three times higher, including the famous pirate Dragut. In early September, when the defenders were at their last resistance, help from Spain finally arrived under command of Álvaro de Bazán and García de Toledo. The Turks, low on morale, panicked and abandoned the island.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201011A" #Not too late
		command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
		command = { type = INF which = 819 value = [color=red]10000[/color][color=yellow]600[/color] } #Malta
		[color=red]command = { type = CAV which = 819 value = 4000 } #Malta
		command = { type = ART which = 819 value = 40 } #Malta[/color]
		command = { type = galleys which = 819 value = 10 } #Malta
		command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 400 }
               [color=yellow] command = { type = manpower   value = 8 }[/color]
	}
}
 
Last edited:

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Baldwin IV

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Where the Knigths attacked or simply ousted? I am trying to get info before forming an opinion.

Some places like Trabzon or Kerch are inherited under easy to meet conditions.

Can you tell a little bit more about the conditions? I can't find them anywhere. I also have problems with Crusader Events and their conditions.