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unmerged(29041)

Amnistiado por viejuno
May 12, 2004
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Basically, as I understand it, the Order ceased to exist as a nation (EU2 style) when Malta was lost to England. Perhaps we should take the oportunity to see if the event was a cession, or a conquest. Instead of a cession, it could be an inheritance if there was no fighting. 95% of the time KNI only has Malta at that point.
 

unmerged(29041)

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Then should it go to France first and mean the end of the Knights as a EU nation?
 

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Garbon said:
Frankly I don't understand why this is an event. If the French don't attack the Knights, then this sequence doesn't really make sense.
Where the Knigths attacked or simply ousted? I am trying to get info before forming an opinion.

Some places like Trabzon or Kerch are inherited under easy to meet conditions.
 

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Fodoron said:
Where the Knigths attacked or simply ousted? I am trying to get info before forming an opinion.

Some places like Trabzon or Kerch are inherited under easy to meet conditions.

Random net sites seem to suggest that Napoleon put into port and then sneak attacked his hosts with little resistance.
 

tuesday4am

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Personally, I didn't like the fact that the Knights get that event without actually being attacked by France. But I see there is a "Egyptian Campaign" event for France, so it might be part of that event chain, e.g. FRA gets a core on Malta, and the event fires if they declare war. I haven't looked at the event yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

In 1530, the islands were given by Spain to the Order of Knights of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem in perpetual lease. (The Kingdom of Aragon had owned the islands as part of their Mediterranean empire for some time). These knights, a military religious order now known as the "Knights of Malta", had been driven out of Rhodes by the Ottoman Empire in 1522. They withstood a full-blown siege by the Ottoman Turks in 1565. The Turks, at that time, were considered to be the greatest non-European military power. After this they decided to increase the fortifications, particularly in the inner-harbour area, where the new city of Valletta, named after Jean Parisot de la Valette, was built.

Their reign ended when Malta was captured by Napoleon en route to his expedition of Egypt during the French Revolutionary Wars in 1798. As a ruse, Napoleon asked for safe harbour to resupply his ships, and then turned his guns against his hosts once safely inside Valetta. Grand Master Ferdinand von Hompesch zu Bolheim capitulated, and Napoleon stayed in Malta for a few days, during which he systematically looted the movable assets of the Order, and established an administration controlled by his nominees. He then sailed for Egypt, leaving a substantial garrison in Malta. The occupying French forces were unpopular, however, due particularly to their negative attitude towards religion. The Maltese rebelled against them, and the French were forced behind the fortifications. Great Britain, along with the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, sent munitions and aid to the rebels. Britain also sent her navy, which instigated a blockade of the islands. The isolated French forces, under General Claude-Henri Belgrand de Vaubois, surrendered in 1800, and the island became a British protectorate, being presented by several Maltese leaders to Sir Alexander Ball.

In 1814, as part of the Treaty of Paris, Malta officially became a part of the British Empire...

So yes, when the French invaded, it was the last time the Knights controlled territory.
 

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tuesday4am said:
So yes, when the French invaded, it was the last time the Knights controlled territory.

Which is actually what our event text says. It just needs to make sure that the French are doing something in the area...rather than just the trigger which checks that the French Revolution occurred in some form.
 

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Garbon said:
Which is actually what our event text says. It just needs to make sure that the French are doing something in the area...rather than just the trigger which checks that the French Revolution occurred in some form.

Right, but the issue is also if KNI control more than Malta, how to cede Malta to ENG (or FRA) without causing a CTD since it's the capital. If they just control Malta, it's an easy inheritance. In Bordic's version of KNI_24026 above, the trigger includes FRA_170124: the military expedition in Egypt, which I can't seem to find anywhere. That's seems like an integral part of the event chain.
 

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Garbon said:
Maybe we shouldn't then. If the Knights are strong enough (i.e. in more than one province) then perhaps they wouldn't have made such a half-hearted attempt at keeping Malta.

That was Bordic's solution. If KNI only has Malta, then it's inherited, otherwise, it fights on. (Which would mean just get rid of the other event that triggers if countrysize < 6.) AI KNI usually only has Malta at this point anyway, so it's really just for a human player.

On a separate topic, since most of their manpower and funds came from abroad, how about giving KNI some extra tax value and manpower? They do get a couple of events that give them extra tax value, but often they will lose it when they lose Rhodes. The later events like dissolution of the English Langue and the French priories only take away what they already lost. And they don't seem to get any extra manpower at all. At the beginning of the game, they can only support 10k troops, which doesn't seem like enough.
 

unmerged(29041)

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OK, here is my proposed fix to the moving from Rhodes to Malta.
The offering of Malta was made under very specific conditions, ie. the Knights had no other place to go. Otherwise neither the offert nor its acceptance would have happened. We have sufficient historic proof of that.

If the knights have been killed the existent sequence is still apropiate.
If the knights have one province, and only one province, then they request Malta if they think they are going to lose Rhodes (option A). This is as close as we get at them being expelled first:
Code:
#(1523-1798) The Knights request the help of Spain
# by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 201000
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 819 data = SPA } #Malta
		NOT = {
			size = 2
			war = { country = KNI country = SPA }
			vassal = { country = KNI country = SPA }
			vassal = { country = SPA country = KNI }
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = KNI
	name = "EVENTNAME201000" # The Knights request the help of Spain
	desc = "EVENTHIST201000"
	#-#A huge fleet is being readied at Constantinople. Our spies inform us that the Ottoman sultan will soon assault Rhodes to destroy us once and for all. Perhaps the Emperor can find another place for us...

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1523 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1798 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201000A" # We did what we could to defend Rhodes
		command = { type = vp value = -5 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 285124 } #SPA: Carlos generous offer to the Hospitallers
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201000B" # We will never leave Rhodes
		command = { type = vp value = 5 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME201000;The Knights request the help of Spain;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST201000;A huge fleet is being readied at Constantinople. Our spies inform us that the Ottoman Sultan will soon assault Rhodes to destroy us once and for all. Perhaps the Emperor can find another place for us...;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201000A;We did what we could to defend Rhodes;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201000B;We will never leave Rhodes;;;;;;;;;;

I guess the options are clear enough so a human player knows that in option A he is abandoning Rhodes (what human player will have only one province in 1523?)
Spain gets to decide what to do.
Code:
#(1523-1798) Carlos generous offer to the Hospitallers (donation of Malta)
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 285124 [color=yellow]#triggered by KNI_201000[/color]
	[color=red]trigger = {
		owned = { province = 819 data = -1 } #Malta
		exists = KNI
		NOT = {
			war = { country = KNI country = SPA }
			vassal = { country = KNI country = SPA }
			vassal = { country = SPA country = KNI }
		}
	}[/color]
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285123" #Carlos generous offer to the Hospitallers
	desc = "EVENTHIST285123"
	#-#When the Order of St. John was expelled from Rhodes in 1523, it underwent a crisis. Their possessions were being confiscated all over Europe, both by Catholic, and Protestant rulers, their income dwindled, their recruits stopped coming. They desperately needed a base, preferably by reconquering Rhodes, otherwise an island in the Aegean, but nobody helped and Venice opposed them. Europe was at war and there was no place for their neutrality. The emperor Carlos however came up with a master idea. He offered Malta to the Hospitallers. Malta was difficult to defend from the growing Ottoman power, but the Knights were a tough breed. They would give their life defending his shipping lines with Sicily. In 1524 the Hospitallers sent a commission to Malta. Their report was very negative. The island could not sustain itself, and the defences were very poor. Then Carlos decided to include Tripoli in the deal as a take it all or leave it all. The Knights opinion on Tripoli was even worse. They did not have the resources to upgrade its defences. But having no other option, the Chapter General decided in 1527 to accept the offer with the opposition of the French Langues. They still had hopes of recovering Rhodes, but in 1530 they gave up and moved to Malta, taking possession also of Tripoli. From then on, the Spaniards and the Knights of St. John would fight their battles in North Africa together.

	[color=red]date = { year = 1523 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 9 month = june year = 1798 }[/color]

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285123A" #They will defend Malta
		command = { type = removecore which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KNI value = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = badboy value = -1 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 48 }
		command = { type = vassal which = KNI }
		command = { type = trigger which = 24001 } #KNI: The Order of St. John is offered Malta
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = ALD value = -50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285123B" #We don't need them
		command = { type = fortress which = 819 value = -1 } #Malta is exposed to attacks
	}
}

Since the choice was already made in 201000, only rests the moving
Code:
#(1523-1798) The Order of St. John is offered Malta
#by Crook modified by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 24001 #triggered by SPA_285124 A
	random = no
	country = KNI
	name = "EVENTNAME24001" #The Order of St. John is offered Malta
	desc = "EVENTHIST285123"
	#-#When the Order of St. John was expelled from Rhodes in 1523, it underwent a crisis. Their possessions were being confiscated all over Europe, both by Catholic, and Protestant rulers, their income dwindled, their recruits stopped coming. They desperately needed a base, preferably by reconquering Rhodes, otherwise an island in the Aegean, but nobody helped and Venice opposed them. Europe was at war and there was no place for their neutrality. The emperor Carlos however came up with a master idea. He offered Malta to the Hospitallers. Malta was difficult to defend from the growing Ottoman power, but the Knights were a tough breed. They would give their life defending his shipping lines with Sicily. In 1524 the Hospitallers sent a commission to Malta. Their report was very negative. The island could not sustain itself, and the defences were very poor. Then Carlos decided to include Tripoli in the deal as a take it all or leave it all. The Knights opinion on Tripoli was even worse. They did not have the resources to upgrade its defences. But having no other option, the Chapter General decided in 1527 to accept the offer with the opposition of the French Langues. They still had hopes of recovering Rhodes, but in 1530 they gave up and moved to Malta, taking possession also of Tripoli. From then on, the Spaniards and the Knights of St. John would fight their battles in North Africa together.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME24001A" #[color=red]We do accept donations[/color][color=yellow]It solves our problem[/color]
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 400 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 481 } #Rhodes
		command = { type = addcore which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = maltese }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = italian }
		[color=yellow]command = { type = capital which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 481 } #Rhodes
		command = { type = inf which = 819 value = 3000 } #Malta[/color]
	}
	[color=red]action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME24001B" #It's a worthless rock
		command = { type = breakvassal which = SPA }
		command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -50 }
		command = { type = stability value = 3 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SPA value = 819 } #Malta goes back
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 285125 } #Donation of Tripoli #SPA: Carlos generous offer to the Hospitallers
		command = { type = trigger which = 285126 } #SPA: The Order of St. John rejects Malta
	}[/color]
}
ACTIONNAME24001A;It solves our problem;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME24001B;

Events SPA_285126: The Order of St. John rejects Malta, and KNI_24031: Order moves to Malta, must them be eliminated

This solution makes perfect sense, but basically means that the decission to remain in Rhodes and not getting Malta is a given for a human player, that obviously is playing ahistorically.

Comments?
 
Last edited:

unmerged(29041)

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Bordic, If Spain still owns Malta, it should go to the kingdom of Two Sicilies when it is created, shouldn't it? I seem to remember that they helped the Maltese to shake the French yoke together with the Brits.
 

tuesday4am

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I think KNI should be able to accept and move to Malta even if they control more than one province. I agree that they shouldn't be able to keep both, but a human player should be able to move to Malta even if they have expanded a bit.

Here are some corrections:

A huge fleet is being readied at Constantinople. Our spies inform us that the Ottoman Sultan will soon assault Rhodes to finish our existence once and for all. Perhaps the Emperor can find another place for us...

"finish our existence" is a bit awkward. Perhaps just "destroy us".
 

unmerged(29041)

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tuesday4am said:
I think KNI should be able to accept and move to Malta even if they control more than one province. I agree that they shouldn't be able to keep both, but a human player should be able to move to Malta even if they have expanded a bit.

Here are some corrections:

A huge fleet is being readied at Constantinople. Our spies inform us that the Ottoman Sultan will soon assault Rhodes to finish our existence once and for all. Perhaps the Emperor can find another place for us...

"finish our existence" is a bit awkward. Perhaps just "destroy us".
Gosh, three mistakes in two phrases. I am particularly thick today.

A human player can conquer Malta and we could make a fantasy event about moving there. But the Knights would have not been offered Malta, had they not been expelled from Rhodes. Nor would they had wanted it. It took them 7 years to accept despite not having other place to go because they still had hopes of recovering Rhodes. They did not want Malta, and knew they would get stuck there.

The historical sequence is that Malta is only offered after they are kicked out of Rhodes. Since Rhodes is extremely difficult to capture by the Ottomans, having them exchange Rhodes for Malta and cede Rhodes to the Turks, something they would have never done, is the next best thing in terms of reproducing history.

Giving Malta to an expanding Order of Saint John is just favoring the human player in ahistoric ways. A succesful Rhodes based Order would not take Malta even as a no-strings gift. It was worthless and required a huge investment.
 

tuesday4am

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Fodoron said:
Gosh, three mistakes in two phrases. I am particularly thick today.

A human player can conquer Malta and we could make a fantasy event about moving there. But the Knights would have not been offered Malta, had they not been expelled from Rhodes. Nor would they had wanted it. It took them 7 years to accept despite not having other place to go because they still had hopes of recovering Rhodes. They did not want Malta, and knew they would get stuck there.

The historical sequence is that Malta is only offered after they are kicked out of Rhodes. Since Rhodes is extremely difficult to capture by the Ottomans, having them exchange Rhodes for Malta and cede Rhodes to the Turks, something they would have never done, is the next best thing in terms of reproducing history.

Giving Malta to an expanding Order of Saint John is just favoring the human player in ahistoric ways. A succesful Rhodes based Order would not take Malta even as a no-strings gift. It was worthless and required a huge investment.

I guess you are right from a historical point of view; I was arguing more from gameplay point of view. However, if current sequence, KNI is offered Malta and then has the choice of moving there or not. The whole ceding Rhodes to TUR just doesn't sit well with me. In the last two games I played, TUR annexed KNI well before Spain got Malta, but of course, that doesn't mean they always will.

As for the Kingdom of Two Sicilies, I believe the Knights were a vassal state of theirs, but Spain always remains the overlord.

Also, for the Knights leaving Malta event, what do you think? Should they only be inherited if Malta is all they have and fight on otherwise?
 

unmerged(29041)

Amnistiado por viejuno
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tuesday4am said:
I guess you are right from a historical point of view; I was arguing more from gameplay point of view. However, if current sequence, KNI is offered Malta and then has the choice of moving there or not. The whole ceding Rhodes to TUR just doesn't sit well with me. In the last two games I played, TUR annexed KNI well before Spain got Malta, but of course, that doesn't mean they always will.

As for the Kingdom of Two Sicilies, I believe the Knights were a vassal state of theirs, but Spain always remains the overlord.

Also, for the Knights leaving Malta event, what do you think? Should they only be inherited if Malta is all they have and fight on otherwise?

The conquest of Rhodes by OE depends entirely on the Knights. If they go through a period of low troops due to succesful revolts or failure to replace troops sent in expeditions and lost, and are attacked at that point, they might be conquered. But it is a big IF. My experience is that only in about 10% of the games, the OE manages to conquer them. We are looking more for a 95% chance of success, and that is why they need help.

I am sympathetic with your game concerns, and I am sure they can be acomodated so they don't interfere. I would agree to a low fantasy event in which a size>3 KNI requests the purchase of Malta from Spain for a fair price, if not doing it is option A. If owning both, the KNI can then decide where to put their capital.

Island nations tend to live past their time unless an event takes care of that. My opinion is that a size 1 KNI can be annexed by event 95% of the time without problem. Past that I don't think it matters if between 1802 and 1820 is owned by France, England or Two Sicilies. For all that I care I would make a 4 choice event triggered by Napoleon expedition in which option A is England, and the rest France, Two Sicilies and independent. The sale of Corsica is similar, and after all the Knights did not fight (neither did the French apparently).
 

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I like your idea of fantasy event that will allow a larger (i.e. human) KNI to still get Malta. I agree it shouldn't be the first choice.

How about setting more conditions for KNI ceding Rhodes to TUR? How about TUR has to control the nearby Greek provinces in the Mediterranean (Morea, Hellas, Macedonia and Ionia) and perhaps the entire southern coast of Turkey for the event to fire? This is seems more reasonable to me, to model the Ottomans closing in on Rhodes.

As for the end game inheritance, I do think we need to work in FRA_170124, the Egyptian campaign, into the sequence. I just found the event in the beta. Bordic posted something about it earlier too.
 

unmerged(29041)

Amnistiado por viejuno
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These are the requested events for a fantasy sequence that allows a human player the purchase of Malta. Please check the triggers to see if I have forgotten something.

Code:
#(1530-1798) The sale of Malta to the Hospitallers (fantasy)
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 
	trigger = {
		religion = catholic
		exists = KNI
		relation = { country = KNI data = 0 }
		NOT = {
			owned = { province = 819 data = KNI } #Malta (KNI should not get the event)
			event = { 201000 } #KNI: The Knights request the help of Spain
		}
	}
	random = no
	province = 819 #Malta
	name = "EVENTNAME" # The sale of Malta to the Hospitallers
	desc = "EVENTHIST"

	date = { year = 1530 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 9 month = june year = 1798 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAMEA" #We are interested
		command = { type = relation which = KNI value = 25 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 201001 } #KNI: The Purchase of Malta
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAMEB" #We are not interested
		command = { type = relation which = KNI value = -10 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME;The sale of Malta to the Hospitallers;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST;Milord, the Order of St. John has shown interest in the acquisition of Malta. We could sell that worthless rock for 200 ducats and their vassalage. What do you think?.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAMEA;We are interested;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAMEB;We are not interested;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#(1530-1798) The purchase of Malta (fantasy)
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 201001 #triggered by ProvinceSpecific_ A
	random = no
	country = KNI
	name = "EVENTNAME201001" # The purchase of Malta
	desc = "EVENTHIST201001"

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201001A" #It is too expensive
		command = { type = vp value = -5 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201001B" #It is a fair price
		command = { type = treasure value = -200 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = trigger which = } #ProvinceSpecific: We sold Malta
	}
}
EVENTNAME201001;The purchase of Malta;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST201001;Milord, the owner of Malta is offering us the island for 200 ducats and our vassalage to them. What do you think?.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201001A;It is too expensive;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201001B;It is a fair price;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#(1530-1798) We sold Malta (fantasy)
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = #triggered by KNI_201001 B
	random = no
	province = 819 #Malta
	name = "EVENTNAME" # We sold Malta
	desc = "EVENTHIST"

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAMEA" # Great deal
		command = { type = relation which = KNI value = 200 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KNI value = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = badboy value = -1 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 48 }
		command = { type = treasure value = 200 }
		command = { type = vassal which = KNI }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ALD value = -50 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME;We sold Malta;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST;Milord, the Order of St. John has accepted our price tag on Malta.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAMEA;Great deal;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#(1530-1798) The Hospitallers consider a change of see (fantasy)
#by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 201002
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 819 data = KNI } #Malta
		owned = { province = 481 data = KNI } #Rhodes
		NOT = {
			event = { 24001 } #KNI: The Order of St. John is offered Malta (Knights moved already)
			event = { 285123 } #SPA: Carlos generous offer to the Hospitallers (Knights created at Malta)
			event = { 338026 } #ProvinceSpec: The Hospitallers request Malta (Knights created at Malta)
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = KNI
	name = "EVENTNAME201002" # The Hospitallers consider a change of see
	desc = "EVENTHIST201002"

	[color=Yellow]date = { year = 1531 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 9 month = june year = 1798 }[/color]

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201002A" #Move closer to our patrons
		command = { type = treasure value = -50 } #Moving cost
		command = { type = vp value = -50 } #Cowardice
		command = { type = stability value = -3 } #Cowardice
		command = { type = addcore which = 819 } #Malta
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = maltese }
		command = { type = capital which = 819 } #Malta
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME201002B" #Remain close to our enemies
		command = { type = vp value = 50 }
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME201002;The Hospitallers consider a change of see;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST201002;Milord, moving our see to Malta would make us dependent on Sicily for water and food, and most knights reject moving away from the enemies of Christendom. However it would allow us to get prompt help from our patrons in case of attack. What do you think?.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201002A;Move closer to our patrons;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME201002B;Remain close to our enemies;;;;;;;;;;

do you like it tuesday4am :)?
 
Last edited: