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You mean with event BUR 137018 because Philipp was a prisoner and Maximilian not accepted in Flanders?
I would rather change the national core on that province to a claimcore instead of removing dutch culture from Burgundy when BUR has moved it´s capital to the low countries.
Yeah, I'd agree with something similar as I don't think the notion is to completely break Burgundy.
I just realized that it seems to be possible for Burgundy to first become Lotharingia in 1447 with HAB 28005 B, and then later becoming France in 1461 with event 137074 in the Burgundy HYW event file if it played its cards right up until then. The Brussels and King Philip events only makes the regular BUR 20100 event sleep, leaving the version in HYW_BUR untouched. In version 1.59 Beta 3, this could potentially result in a huge France that has Dutch and German culture, but not French culture.
The easiest solution would be to just make *all* Burgundy-to-France events sleep when you take the Lotharingian crown, but if that path is to be kept open, I'd at least suggest removing Dutch and German culture and adding French once you become king of France when you already have the crown of Lotharingia. It would still result in an overpowered entity, but at least it would be tempered somehwat by the lack of accepted cultures in Germany and the Low Countries.
The easiest solution would be to just make *all* Burgundy-to-France events sleep when you take the Lotharingian crown, but if that path is to be kept open, I'd at least suggest removing Dutch and German culture and adding French once you become king of France when you already have the crown of Lotharingia. It would still result in an overpowered entity, but at least it would be tempered somehwat by the lack of accepted cultures in Germany and the Low Countries.
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IMO we don´t need a solution. Burgundy will AI-controlled in very very few games be able to first claim the throne of Lothar and then in the short time until 1461 fulfill the conditions to claim the throne of France. Even a player might find that difficult. But IF Burgundy achieves that having french culture in addition to dutch and german would be overpowering - and why should they receive french when they willingly gave it up to become Lotharingia and get german culture?
That's why I suggested removing Dutch and German culture upon claiming the throne of France.
Because if a French king from a French royal dynasty decides to rule a French kingdom from the traditional French capital, he will generally want to rule most of his kingdom with French officials, have a French court and generally prioritize France over the less prestigious Lotharingia? Point being; a Dutch-German France that doesn't even accept French culture is about as ridiculous as it gets. It should either only have French culture, or it shouldn't be possible to create France if you're already Lotharingia in the first place.
Why make something not possible that already hardly ever happens? If a player likes to recreate Lotharingia (which itself already is ahistorical and difficult) and then add the thrones of France and the HRE to reform the empire of Charlemagne then let him try to achieve that and leave it accordingly *hard* to achieve. ^^
Okay then. I mostly just wanted it fixed because that kind of bugginess is the kind you'd usually want to fix in a patch. =P (Granted, I could fix it myself. One extra sleep event command is all that's needed.)
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In ENG 164090 "A Suitor for Duke Charles's Daughter" Option B, George Plantagenet (Clarence) marries Mary of Burgundy. As far as I can tell, there's never an event in which this marriage is annulled, meaning that by the time the Marriage of Mary of Burgundy event for BUR pops up, she'll still technically be married to Clarence.
This doesn't affect gameplay, but it does result in the Marriage of Mary of Burgundy events not making any sense. There's a lot of potential to the scenario, but none of it is explored in-game because the whole event is just treated as an unimportant mini-event for England to get a bit of extra tax value in its provinces. Assuming this happened historically, anything from Mary being locked up in the Tower along with Clarence to Clarence - or one of their heirs - becoming Duke of Burgundy could happen.
While it would be easier to just remove Option B from the aforementioned event, it could be interesting with an alternate event following the death of Charles the Bold at the Battle of Nancy too. Clarence most likely wouldn't be in any position to become Duke at that time, but we could say that Mary and her alternate offspring escaped to Burgundy, make her the monarch up until her death as usual, and then have Adolph of Cleves - and later his son - act as regent while Mary's son is still in his minority.
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In ENG 164090 "A Suitor for Duke Charles's Daughter" Option B, George Plantagenet (Clarence) marries Mary of Burgundy. As far as I can tell, there's never an event in which this marriage is annulled, meaning that by the time the Marriage of Mary of Burgundy event for BUR pops up, she'll still technically be married to Clarence.
This doesn't affect gameplay, but it does result in the Marriage of Mary of Burgundy events not making any sense. There's a lot of potential to the scenario, but none of it is explored in-game because the whole event is just treated as an unimportant mini-event for England to get a bit of extra tax value in its provinces. Assuming this happened historically, anything from Mary being locked up in the Tower along with Clarence to Clarence - or one of their heirs - becoming Duke of Burgundy could happen.
While it would be easier to just remove Option B from the aforementioned event, it could be interesting with an alternate event following the death of Charles the Bold at the Battle of Nancy too. Clarence most likely wouldn't be in any position to become Duke at that time, but we could say that Mary and her alternate offspring escaped to Burgundy, make her the monarch up until her death as usual, and then have Adolph of Cleves - and later his son - act as regent while Mary's son is still in his minority.
Extra tax value? If you chose ENG 164090 b then event ENG 164092 is slept, meaning that you don´t get anything you wouldn´t have gotten with the a option later.
Option 164090 b actually does not grant a royal marriage between ENG and BUR. Mary would be only 9 - 10 years old at the time that event fires when I read it right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Burgundy
so I would rather understand it as a declaration of intention to that marriage later and nothing that would need to be dissolved.
Yes, action B could technically sleep BUR_3597 and BUR_20047. But history would have a big stroke then. Which alternative path to follow? That one for an ahistorical Burgundy in a way BUR_137038 action C (Philipp of Cleves) already starts with in 159 beta 3? In this case we will adopt new monarchs, of course.
Well, imo we should include an ai_chance of 2 for action B and of 1 for action C, that is ai_chance 97 for action A. Or just remove action C which is fantasy of an already alternative path...
I wasn't implying that England got anything more out of it than it would have otherwise. I was just pointing out that the event is treated as a minor economical boon event rather than the important dynastic marriage it could have been. There is not even a response event for Burgundy.
That could work as an explanation, true. I do think the scenario would be pretty interesting to explore nonetheless, but I suppose that's not really what AGCEEP is about.
When I play Burgundy, I play it to play Burgundy, not Cleves, Palatinate or Spain, so history tends to have a big stroke regardless when I play it.
I figured it would be almost identical to the Philip of Cleves path, but with some alternate monarchs and possibly without the Great Privilege and loss of the French estates events.* Assuming Mary had a legal male heir, the French king would have no legal reason to seize their French possessions**, and with a less aggressive French king to worry about, she might be able to deal with the disgruntled Dutchmen without undoing the work of her father and grandfather. England would probably get really pissed off about it though, considering what position Clarence was in at the time.
*Since it would be a very rare alternate path anyway.
**I am assuming that this hypothetical male offspring would technically become Duke of Burgundy, at least the French portion, if it was indeed impossible for a woman to inherit as the event in question says.
Yeah, making it way more unlikely to happen would work well too.
Yes, there are many events with trigger to be changed and that action B will sleep a lot of events even concerning HYW files.
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There's also a smaller issue that has confused me for some time now. In BUR 137306 "Annexation of Luxemburg" you gain a core on Alsace. Is there a reason for this? The event description has nothing to say on the matter.
Well, it seems to be a bug here. As Alsace should be involved in other events such as BUR_137001.
That command line should be removed, imo, and more, the core is already given over Luxemburg.
Figured. Where should stuff like that be reported? I could just fix it myself, but it seems like something you'd want to get in a patch sometime.
Speaking of the event you mentioned; the province you actually get in BUR_137001 is the Baden province - which I understand represents the eastern parts of the Habsburg Vorlande - but the only core you get is on Alsace, which you have to conquer manually. You only get a core on all of the Vorlande once Sigismund renounces his claims on them. Wouldn't it be better if you got a core on both when you purchase the Vorlande? (Or perhaps claim cores instead?)
Speaking of the event you mentioned; the province you actually get in BUR_137001 is the Baden province - which I understand represents the eastern parts of the Habsburg Vorlande - but the only core you get is on Alsace, which you have to conquer manually. You only get a core on all of the Vorlande once Sigismund renounces his claims on them. Wouldn't it be better if you got a core on both when you purchase the Vorlande? (Or perhaps claim cores instead?)
In agceep bugfix thread in the stickies.
Yes, it is not proper Alsace. If you see event BUR_3597, Alsace province gained as core by BUR should be represented by Habsburg Sundgau only. Unfortunately this isn't in wagceep too except for Breisgau.
About Flanders entering the HRE. Here is another part of the sequence of modifications previously posted in France thread where Flanders becomes HRE province during the Italian Wars:
When did Flanders enter the HRE? in 1526 or before?
In case, according to current events we could do in this way:
One could say that these events need to test if Flanders is owned by Burgundy...
About the entering in the HRE, Maximilian was King of the Romans only. Should we wait until 1493? Would Flanders be part of HRE if the Habsburg aren't to become emperors as in history? Maximilian and then Charles V?
When did Flanders enter the HRE? in 1526 or before?
In case, according to current events we could do in this way:
Code:
#(1482) The succession of Archduchess Mary
#by Bordic
event = {
id = 137018
trigger = {
owned = { province = 380 data = -1 } #Flandern
OR = {
flag = [Habsburg]
event = 3178 #HAB: The Habsburg inheritance of Burgundy (1477)
}
vassal = { country = HAB country = BUR }
}
random = no
country = BUR
name = "EVENTNAME137018" #The succession of Archduchess Mary
desc = "EVENTHIST137018"
#-#On 27 March 1482 the Duchess Marie incidentally fell from her horse while at hunting with a falcon in the surroundings of Bruges and died from injuries sustained. Her son, Philip, four years of age, was recognized as successor while Maximilian was recognized by the provinces as governor and Philip's ward, during the minority of his son. Flanders alone refused Maximilian's rule. The burghers, ever prompt in action, took personal possession of the child Philip, and carried on the government in his name and a commission of citizens and nobles thus maintained their authority against the son of the Holy Roman Emperor. A commission of citizens and nobles thus maintained their authority over Low Countries for several years against Maximilian's regency.
date = { day = 26 month = March year = 1482 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME137018A" #The House of Habsburg won't reign over here
command = { type = breakvassal which = HAB }
command = { type = DIP which = -1 value = 84 }
command = { type = ADM which = 2 value = 84 }
command = { type = merchants value = 3 }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = -2 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -30 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 380 value = 10 } #Flandern
}
}
Code:
#(1488) Negotiations at Bruges
#by Bordic
event = {
id = 137019
trigger = {
event = 137018 #BUR: The succession of Archduchess Mary
[COLOR=Yellow]owned = { province = 380 data = -1 } #Flandern[/COLOR]
}
random = no
country = BUR
name = "EVENTNAME137019" #Negotiations at Bruges
desc = "EVENTHIST137019"
#-#In 1488, Maximilian, archduke of Austria and Burgundy's regent, now King of the Romans, with a small force of cavalry, attempted to take the rebelling city of Bruges, but he failed, being also captured and kept a prisoner with several councilors in a house on the market-place. In order to be set free he made a treaty with the people of Flanders in which it was stated that he was recognized as regent of the Low Countries except for Flanders, which was to be governed by his son Philip under guardianship of a council. Moreover, a congress of all the provinces was to be summoned annually, to provide for the general welfare. The treaty was signed on 16 May 1488 under Maximilian's promise to dismiss all foreign troops within a few days. Giving hostages for his fidelity, he was set at liberty but in the meanwhile, his father, Emperor Frederick III sent an army under the Duke of Saxony in the Low Countries to free his son. The struggle lasted a year and at the end Flanders was subdued.
date = { day = 15 month = May year = 1488 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME137019A" #Let's impose our will to Maximilian
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = -1 }
command = { type = DIP which = -2 value = 12 }
command = { type = MIL which = 2 value = 12 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 12 }
command = { type = diplomats value = 2 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 380 value = -10 } #Flandern
}
}
Code:
#(1489) The subjugation of the Low Countries
#by Bordic
event = {
id = 137020
trigger = {
[COLOR=Yellow]owned = { province = 380 data = -1 } #Flandern[/COLOR]
NOT = {
vassal = { country = BUR country = HAB }
war = { country = BUR country = HAB }
}
event = 137018 #BUR: The succession of Archduchess Mary
}
random = no
country = BUR
name = "EVENTNAME137020" #The subjugation of the Low Countries
desc = "EVENTHIST137020"
#-#Frederick V (III) of Austria sent an army under the command of the Duke of Saxony in the Low Countries to repress the population of Flanders who dared to take his son Maximilian captive at Bruges and forced him to sign a treaty that granted large autonomy to the Flemish administration. The struggle lasted a year but at the end the people of Flanders was subdued. A new treaty was stipulated between Maximilian and the representatives of Flanders in October 1489. Maximilian obtained uncontrolled guardianship of his son, absolute dominion over Flanders and the other provinces. The rebelling burghers were severely punished for remembering that they had been freemen. The magistrates of the three largest Flemish cities of Ghent, Bruges and Ypres were compelled to implore the despot's forgiveness, and to pay a large sum of money in gold as its price. After this, for a brief season, order reigned in Flanders.
date = { day = 20 month = October year = 1489 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 20 month = August year = 1493 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME137020A" #Let's swear allegiance to the Empire
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 2 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 24 }
command = { type = DIP which = 2 value = 24 }
command = { type = MIL which = -2 value = 24 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = -3 }
command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
command = { type = trigger which = 179031 } #HAB: The Habsburgs rule in the Low Countries
}
}
Code:
#(1489) The Habsburgs rule in the Low Countries
#by Bordic
event = {
id = 179031 #triggered by BUR_137020
random = no
country = HAB
name = "EVENTNAME179031" #The Habsburgs rule in the Low Countries
desc = "EVENTHIST137020"
#-#Frederick V (III) of Austria sent an army under the command of the Duke of Saxony in the Low Countries to repress the population of Flanders who dared to take his son Maximilian captive at Bruges and forced him to sign a treaty that granted large autonomy to the Flemish administration. The struggle lasted a year but at the end the people of Flanders was subdued. A new treaty was stipulated between Maximilian and the representatives of Flanders in October 1489. Maximilian obtained uncontrolled guardianship of his son, absolute dominion over Flanders and the other provinces. The rebelling burghers were severely punished for remembering that they had been freemen. The magistrates of the three largest Flemish cities of Ghent, Bruges and Ypres were compelled to implore the despot's forgiveness, and to pay a large sum of money in gold as its price. After this, for a brief season, order reigned in Flanders.
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME179031A" #The Low Countries are tamed
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = dynastic which = BUR }
command = { type = relation which = BUR value = 150 }
command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
command = { type = DIP which = 2 value = 12 }
[COLOR=Lime]command = {
trigger = {
emperor = yes
}
type = hre which = 380 value = yes #Flandern in the HRE
}[/COLOR]
}
}One could say that these events need to test if Flanders is owned by Burgundy...
About the entering in the HRE, Maximilian was King of the Romans only. Should we wait until 1493? Would Flanders be part of HRE if the Habsburg aren't to become emperors as in history? Maximilian and then Charles V?
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We try to have HAB be emperor until TYW, at least. That's why those events about imperial candidacy. In many tests we have HAB emperor until 1519, then SPA, then presumably HAB. In this way events make sense.
If neither HAB nor SPA are emperor, for instance, Spain doesn't inherit MLO. Any other event not testing HAB as current emperor should be tweaked in order to follow the historical path too...
EDIT: maybe we should stick to the French events about the treaties of Madrid, Cambrai and so on, in order to include Flanders in the HRE.
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from agceep bug thread:
Yes, I see but it was a way to add something without changing the event description. A bit more info should be added as that "another step" is not clearly shown to where it should be done...
However, as Kuld von Reyn already posted in #35, would Baden province be maybe better for use? Sundgau and Breisgau are intended as Vorlande if I have quite understood. In wagceep we have Breisgau only. However in this map isn't Alsace for Strasburg only, as STR_20323 states?
EDIT: a core on Lorraine was never implemented for the risk of a too powerful Burgundy, iirc.
a claim_core on Alsace for BUR is now possible and most welcome. I don't know if also on Lorraine now...
It would be if Luxembourg was actually connected with the province you get a core on.
As seen here, Alsace - even if we assume it contains all of modern Alsace - would do nothing to connect their Dutch and French possessions unless they also decided to conquer Pfalz and everything in-between.
Yes, I see but it was a way to add something without changing the event description. A bit more info should be added as that "another step" is not clearly shown to where it should be done...
However, as Kuld von Reyn already posted in #35, would Baden province be maybe better for use? Sundgau and Breisgau are intended as Vorlande if I have quite understood. In wagceep we have Breisgau only. However in this map isn't Alsace for Strasburg only, as STR_20323 states?
EDIT: a core on Lorraine was never implemented for the risk of a too powerful Burgundy, iirc.
a claim_core on Alsace for BUR is now possible and most welcome. I don't know if also on Lorraine now...
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