AGCEEP: Burgundy

[unmerged(24442)]

All stuff regarding Burgundy (and if we give it a seperate tag, Lotharingia) should go in here.

Things about Burgundy to discuss:

• Burgundy gets cores on Champagne and Nivernais as final part of the Alliance of Monteau.
• Cores which Burgundy should get when it claims the throne of Lotharingia
• Methods by which Burgundy might claim the throne of Lotharingia
• Event sequences for Mary's marriages after the death of Charles the Bold.
• Whether or not we should add a seperate Lotharingian Culture, and how it should become Bugundy's main culture.
• Whether or not we should add a Lotharingian tag, and how we should change bugundy to it.

I'll move all the relevant stuff from other threads to here.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

What we have so far on the sucession:

Perhaps there is an opportunity here to expand upon Charles' 'the Bold' dreams of recreating the Lotharingian empire (picture a Lorraine that encompasses, roughly, the present Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Alsace, and NW Germany, including Aachen and Cologne).

But who could bestow such a title upon a duke of Burgundy? The Holy Roman Emperor?

Of course, this would have to involve alternate lineages. Perhaps an alternate marriage for Mary, other than one to Maximilian. As has been mentioned, Mary should be capable of being simply 'regent' until a king is found. Candidates could be Maximilian (the historical choice), the French Dauphin Charles and even one of Edward IV's younger brother, Richard (future Richard III).

It's fairly exciting to think of the possibilities here: ENG invades FRA (historically) in 1475, however, the tentative alliance between FRA and BUR, has been sweetened with a marriage between Richard Plantagenet and Mary of Burgundy (Charles' daughter by his first marriage) - the unhistorical bit with plenty of plausibilty. Provided the war is successful (rather than FRA buying off Edward IV as they did, historically) before Charles' death at Nantes in 1477, then a new 'Treaty of Arras' or 'Treaty of Paris' is signed, granting Edward titles and possessions in FRA, and freeing Burgundy from any and all obligations to the French crown entirely; perhaps FRA and ENG would recognize Charles as king of Burgundy - thus FRA would lose any and all cores on the Burgundian possessions, as would England should they have any (such as from the Jacquelin of Hainault fiasco).

Thus, with the duke Charles' death in 1477 - although FRA may be given the option to repeal all treaty obligations to Burgundy - at least England could come to Burgundy's aid. Richard did have a son, although his son, Edward, died in 1484 at age 10, we could extend his life and use him as the basis for a new Burgundian lineage.

The circumstances would be different if Burgundy had become France. I don't think we can simply discard Charles VII's son, Louis XI and his son Charles VIII. Both would be make a bid for the throne of FRA once Charles 'the bold' died (the alternative Charles VII). My guess would be civil war (again) between some kind of Armagnac coalition under Louis XI and his son Charles, v.s. a Burgundian-English coalition headed by Mary of Burgundy and Richard (had they married) or whoever Mary ended up marrying. The attraction to ENG is the availabilty of aid. Historically, Frederrick III and his son Maximilian did a really lousy job of helping Mary during her time of need. The motives between the Austrian-Burgundian coalition being necessity in terms of aid in the face of French aggression, but as well as the Burgundian dreams of an independent kingdomhood stemming from talks between Mary's father and Frederrick III, Holy Roman Emperor.

Thoughts?

Sounds mouthwateringly interesting, especially since Burgundy is my favourite country.

I'd suggest a "Lotharingia" tag be available which Burgundy can obtain somehow by the Austrian marriage, or by force of arms.

As an idea, while Mary is alive, maybe she should be the focus of the Burgundian player even after Maximilian takes the throne. When Maximilian and Austria prove to be poor at protecting Burgundy, Mary could have him "removed", in favour of Richard.
This could cause a war with Austria, meaning that the war with France would have to be concluded quickly, or Burgundy would be divvied up between France and the Habsburgs as happened historically. A resounding defeat of both France and Austria allows Burgundy to free herself of Franch rule, and force Austria to give up the crown of Lotharingia to Burgundy, causing a tag change.

Incidentally, since it is desired by many people that there should be a German unification event, having Bohemia, Lotharingia, Germany and Italy all be independent should have extremely big consequences for the HRE.

I like your suggestion for Burgundy, Snin. There is only one small (very large) problem with our idea here that I've realized...Mary gives birth to Philip I of Castile through Maximilian :wacko:

This can be solved by giving Maximilian a new wife that then gives birth to Philip. Philip then marries Joanna and life in Spain wouldn't know any difference

The other way is to have Burgundy remain alive past 1478. With Philip's birth with his historical parents and everything, and Austria doing nothing with FRA at Burgundy's doorstep, Mary then turns to ENG for help and marries Richard (papal dispensation and everything!) A successful Burgundian-English alliance throws off the hounds of FRA and Austria. Mary then dies, historically, in 1482, leaving Edward as her son (unhistorical son from an unhistorical second marriage to Richard Plantagenet) triggering another dispute (unless this had been already settled prior to Mary's death). Philip wants his Burgundian possessions, and so when he's all grown up, marries Joanna (historical) in 1496 and in so doing, enlists the aid of Castile and Austria against Burgundy and ENG.

So we'd still get some craziness over the Burgundian Succession, but with the bonus of giving Burgundy a new dynasty coooool.

Thoughts?

Sounds purty cool.

I assume that if we were to do this, the "Charles the Bold never died" option would be removed from the event where Mary chooses her Suitor? Because there's a Dynasty right there...

...So maybe what we could do is have four alternatives in that event. We have the standard Austria and France options, along with an "Richard Plantagenet (hard, but rewarding)" and "Charles the Bold Never Died (easy, but no potential extras)". The Potential extras could be a loss of French cores on Lotharingian lands, addition of cores on Ninervais and Champagne (Assuming the Duke closed the doors of Rheims, but Charles won in any case), Nice events, etc. etc.

However, that reminds me of two things. A Burgundy that already has the throne of Lotharingia shouldn't have to grant independence to minors upon the marriage to Austria or France, at least, not until after Mary gets the option to do away with her Husband. Also, what should we do in the event that there is no France? Effectively, England is going to take the place of France in the sequence, demanding secessions and suchlike, but who else can Mary turn to? Burgundy, England and Castile are the only powers of note in the area at this time (even austria is pretty weak this early). Seems like her only hope would be a coalition of Anti-English-Habsburg states, becoming either Steward until someone is found, or even Queen (Or maybe even declaring that because the marriage is void, so is the paternity of her unborn child, Philip IV l'orphein of Burgundy *evil grin*).
Of course, that means a third fantasy dynasty, which is probably a bit too much.

And at the end of the Sucession crisis, or not long after Charles doesn't die, there should be a tag switch to Lotharingia if Burgundy has the throne by this time.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

The Alliance of Montreau ultimately removes French cores on Burgundian lands, as well as on Champagne and Nivernais. Bugundy does not get corresponding cores added, hence these two new events:

event = {
	 id = 10000xx
	 trigger = { 
		    event = 1000089 
		    owned = { province which = 376 value = BUR }
		   }
	 style = 1
	 random = no
	 name = "Burgundy leaves with Champagne"
	 desc = "By agreement, when Burgundy left the crown of France for its independence, it was to take the province of Champagne with it."

date = { day = 10 month = september year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 21 month = october year = 1423 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Champagne is ours, now and for forever"
		     command = { type = addcore which = 376 }
		    }
	 }

event = {
	 id = 10000xx
	 trigger = { 
		    event = 1000089 
		    owned = { province which = 386 value = BUR }
		   }
	 style = 1
	 random = no
	 name = "Burgundy leaves with Nivernais"
	 desc = "By agreement, when Burgundy left the crown of France for its independence, it was to take the province of Nivernais with it."

date = { day = 10 month = september year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 21 month = october year = 1423 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Nivernais is ours, now and for forever"
		     command = { type = addcore which = 386 }
		    }
	}

 

[unmerged(24442)]

If we do add a Lotharingian culture, I believe that it should spread radially from a few major cities over a period of many years. Events for this situation:

event = {
	 id = xxxx01
	 trigger = {
		    event = 28006
		    flag = CharlesLives #would be set by "Charles the Bold never died"#
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "A distinct culture"
	 desc = "When Phillipe le Bon was crowned King of Lotharingia in the mid 15th century, he came to rule over a very culturally divided land.  To the south was located the Burgundian ancestral homeland, and until then a part of France.  In the north, the lowland city states had their own values and customs. And in the east, his newly aquired German lands were as German as they had always been.  Fortunately, the Lotharingian Kings proved to be very open-minded to these cultures, and over time these cultures began to converge as a single, unified culture."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1530 } #It has been 2-3 generations since the coronation, merchants from all over Lotharingia are in the major cities, and the young nobles from various areas meet each other, sharing ideas and becoming friends#
 	 offset = 360

	 action_a = {
		     name = "A new culture for our new Kingdom!"
		     command = { type = remove_countryculture which = French }
		     command = { type = remove_countryculture which = Dutch }
		     command = { type = add_countryculture which = Lotharingian } #done to make Lotharingian the primary culture#
		     command = { type = add_countryculture which = French }
		     command = { type = add_countryculture which = Dutch }
		     command = { type = add_countryculture which = German }
		     command = { type = setflag which = LothCul_1 }
		     command = { type = stablity value = 2 }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx02
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_1
		    owned = { province which = 378 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian takes root in Brabant"
	 desc = "In the early days of what can be called the 'Lotharingian' culture, only a few major centres showed any recognisable fusion of the three cultures.  From these centres, the culture spread throughout all of the land. Your Majesty, Brabant is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1530 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = {day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Wonderful!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 378 value = Lotharingian }
		   }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx03
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_1
		    owned = { province which = 409 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian takes root in Bourgogne"
	 desc = "In the early days of what can be called the 'Lotharingian' culture, only a few major centres showed any recognisable fusion of the three cultures.  From these centres, the culture spread throughout all of the land. Your Majesty, Bourgogne is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1530 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = {day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Wonderful!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 409 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx04
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_1
		    owned = { province which = 334 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian takes root in Munster"
	 desc = "In the early days of what can be called the 'Lotharingian' culture, only a few major centres showed any recognisable fusion of the three cultures.  From these centres, the culture spread throughout all of the land. Your Majesty, Munster is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1530 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Wonderful!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 334 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx05
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_1
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian begins to spread"
	 desc = "After firmly establishing itself within the major cities of Lotharingia, the new culture slowly began to spread into the surrounding areas.  As more people began to consider themselves Lotharingian first and foremost, the Kings fouund they had an easier time of ruling the Kingdom."
	 style = 1

 	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 360

	 action_a = {
		     name = "We are proud to have such loyal subjects!"
		     command = { type = setflag which = LothCul_2 }
		     command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		    }

event = {
	 id = xxxx06
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 379 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Artois"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Artois is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 379 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx07
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 377 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Luxembourg"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Luxembourg is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 377 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx08
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 344 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Cologne"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Cologne is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 344 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx09
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 343 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Kleves"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Kleves is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 343 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx10
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 335 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Oldenburg"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Oldenburg is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 335 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx11
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 408 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Lyonnais"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Lyonnais is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 408 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx12
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 387 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Franche-Comte"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Franche-Comte is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 387 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx13
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian replaces French and German"
	 desc = "Over the past century, the Lotharingian people have come to see themselves not as French or German, but as countrymen of one of the most powerful states in Europe: Lotharingia.  As such, the Lotharingian culture can now be seen in all parts of the East and South.  Only in the North do the rebellious dutch nobles cling to their identity like a child's blanket.  But today, we all Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 360

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Our lands are almost as one!"
		     command = { type = setflag which = LothCul_3 }
		     command = { type = remove_countryculture which = French }
		     command = { type = remove_countryculture which = German }
		     command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx14
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 407 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Dauphine"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Dauphine is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 407 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx15
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 406 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Provence"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Provence is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 406 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx16
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 405 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Savoy"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Savoy is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 405 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx17
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 388 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Bern"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Bern is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 388 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx18
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 374 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Alsace"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Alsace is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 374 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx19
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 375 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Lorraine"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Lorraine is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 375 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx20
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 383 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Picardie"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Picardie is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 383 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx21
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 345 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Pfalz"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Pfalz is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 345 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx22
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    flag = NethRepat
		NOT = { exists = HOL }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "The Low Countries return to Lotharingia"
	 desc = "After many years, the Dutch nobles were finally eliminated, and the Low Countries were repatriated into Lotharingia.  That the Kings of Lotharingia did not take reprisals amongst the common people as long as there was no resistance to Lothaingian rule caused many common folk to wholeheartedly support their King.  Those people of the wealthy middle class that had tried to remain neutral in the revolt were granted the titles of the former nobles, ensuring their allegiance.  Before long, all of Lotharingia had a common culture."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 360

	 action_a = {
		     name = "We are one people!"
		     command = { type = setflag which = LothCul_4 }
		     command = { type = remove_countryculture which = Dutch }
		     command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx23
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_4
		    owned = { province which = 340 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Zeeland"
	 desc = "All of the Lotharingian people have now been united under a common culture!  Rejoice, Your Majesty, Zeeland is now Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Perfect!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 340 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx24
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_4
		    owned = { province which = 339 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Holland"
	 desc = "All of the Lotharingian people have now been united under a common culture!  Rejoice, Your Majesty, Holland is now Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Perfect!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 339 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx25
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_4
		    owned = { province which = 338 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Geldre"
	 desc = "All of the Lotharingian people have now been united under a common culture!  Rejoice, Your Majesty, Geldre is now Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Perfect!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 338 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx26
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_4
		    owned = { province which = 337 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Friesen"
	 desc = "All of the Lotharingian people have now been united under a common culture!  Rejoice, Your Majesty, Friesen is now Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Perfect!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 337 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx27
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_4
		    owned = { province which = 380 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Flandern"
	 desc = "All of the Lotharingian people have now been united under a common culture!  Rejoice, Your Majesty, Flandern is now Lotharingian!"
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1650 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Perfect!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 380 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx28
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_2
		    owned = { province which = 386 value = BUR }
		    core = { province which = 386 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Nivernais"
	 desc = "The new culture has begun to spread!  With each passing day, the unity of the Kingdom is strengthened by this new force.  This alone may be what saves the second Kingdom from becoming like the first. Your Majesty, Nivernais is now Lotharingian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1550 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Splendid!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 386 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

event = {
	 id = xxxx21
	 trigger = {
		    flag = LothCul_3
		    owned = { province which = 376 value = BUR }
		    core = { province which = 376 value = BUR }
		   }
	 random = no
	 country = BUR
	 name = "Lotharingian spreads to Champagne"
	 desc = "Our culture now reigns supreme in our nation!  We have taken ancient soil, and an ancient crown, and as one people we shall make it flourish once more!  your Majesty, Champagne is now Lotharginian."
	 style = 1

	 date = { day = 1 month = January year = 1570 }
	 offset = 30
	 deathdate = { day = 30 month = December year = 1820 }

	 action_a = {
		     name = "Marvellous!"
		     command = { type = provinceculture which = 376 value = Lotharingian }
		    }
	}

 

[Mad King James]

Wouldn't Lotharingian be more of a cultural construction than a culture? It's more along the lines of those people who inhabited upper and lower Lorraine, and thusly were imperial subjects who nevertheless tended to speak French.

In this case it should be in the game at start, and go from Savoy in the south up to Wallonia in the north.

 

[Twoflower]

Wouldn't Lotharingian be more of a cultural construction than a culture? It's more along the lines of those people who inhabited upper and lower Lorraine, and thusly were imperial subjects who nevertheless tended to speak French.

In this case it should be in the game at start, and go from Savoy in the south up to Wallonia in the north.

It is a culture based both on the standard "national" or "linguistic" culture concept and your idea of culture based on legitimacy and ruling traditions. German countries have problems ruling the area because the people there speak and "feel" French, French countries (especially France itself) have problems because of being considered illegitimate rulers and because of different laws etc, thus neither of them should have the culture. Of course the main purpose of introducing the culture is using it as an instrument to limit French expansion into the HRE and adress some things that simply don't look right (like France ruling Franche Comté more easily than Spain).

 

[unmerged(24442)]

Lotharingian as I'm thinking of it is a fusion of Dutch, German and French cultures into something more distinct. Sort of like the Melting Pot idea in the US.

Hence the reason it only develops over two or thre generations, and begins in the major areas of Lotharingia, where there are German, French and Dutch merchants, and where the various Dutch, French, and German nobles would often meet with one another.

I think that if there were not a new culture, Dutch or French rather than the Lotharingian of the people of Lorraine would eventually become ascendant over a period of a long time. The problem with that is it makes it fairly easy for an invading France or a rebelling netherlands to expand to a huge degree (unlikely, since Burgundy's continued existance will depend on a Plantagenet marriage or Charles the Bold dodging the historical reaper, both implying a player), or more likely Burgundy's conquest of France, which is what any player not concerned about historical roleplaying would do. Them eventually losing French culture eventually prevents this.

 

[Mad King James]

Twoflower: Exactly, it's a culture for French Imperial lands. Thus while neither France nor any German countries should have the culture, it fits like a glove for French Imperial countries.

Snin: 'Dutch' is a little weird actually, it should be bigger, stretching into Germany a bit if it's based linguistically, or smaller if we're talking politically, in which case it shouldn't stretch into Belgium.

The nobility of 'Dutch' lands were all 'Lotharingian', it was the common people who were Dutch and the nobles French even into the 17th century.

The culture we're talking about isn't melting pot at all really, Lotharingian would be primarily regional dialect French people under Imperial rule.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

The culture as I'm seeing it is primarily the culture of the merchants, who would have the "dutch" culture of the common people. It represents the commonality of the Nobility, which would be that "French Imperial" culture (thoug it also represents the nobles in Northern Germany, whom I imagine spoke German instead), the common customs which are spread by the merchants (to use the first example that popped into my head, Merchants selling french food in German lotharingia), and the common peasants over time coming to consider themselves as "Lotharingian" as opposed to French, German or Dutch.

If "Dutch" is inacurate, that might be something to be discussed, too. Isn't there a Germany and the Lowlands thread? I was considering Dutch as the culture of the common people, rather than linguistically or politically...

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Personally, I wouldn't want to see any new cultural constructions in our mod.

The options would seem to be to either:

A) give the novel re-creation of the Lotharingian Kingdom the state cultures it needs to retain successful administration over their historic lands
->would dutch, french and german state cultures facilitate unhistorical expansion?

B) create a new viable culture for these regions as suggested.
->should this culture exist at gamestart or be introduced under certain circumstances?

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Are there any other cultures - that is, those in the present version of the mod - other than dutch, german, french that we are dealing with?

Also, I certainly think the re-creation of Lotharingian kingdom should be a relatively easy task, on paper, just as it was historically. Culturally, I don't see too much merit in unifying the regions under one culture, as the Lotharingian kingdom was somewhat of a construction, lasting for only a couple decades, before it fragmented apart.

So it would seem that the Lothargian Empire was fragile enough during its short existence, so what exactly has changed since that might make us think it should be simple enough for a duke or king to govern over such a stretch of land united under a single culture, or alternatively, retain a pool of state cultures covering the same stretch of lands in the 'EU2 cultural bonus' sense?

I've stumbled upon this...uh...anyone want to comment on it? You'll probably notice the EU2 map which is handy...

 

[unmerged(24442)]

Frisian is the other culture.

Lotharingia was killed by Gavelkind inheritance. Lothair split his kingdom into Lotharingia, Burgundy and Italy, and then his son who was king of Lotharingia died (heirless, I guess) and his Kingdom was split among East and West Francia.
The other two Carolingian kingdoms (France and the HRE) stuck around, and they developed a culture of their own each. If the Middle Kingdom had stayed around, I think it too would have developed its own culture.

I'll have a look at that. It looks interesting...

 

[unmerged(28992)]

Swiss is also another culture to deal with as the Crown of Lotharingia event also grants a core on Bern. I really hope this goes somewhere as Burgundy is also one of my favourite 'what if' nations but it seems that every time someone starts a thread on fantasy Burgundy events it just dries up and doesn't go anywhere. When I played Burgundy last I created a bunch of my own events (which I based on the fantasy Byzantine set) for a series of conflicts with France and Austria.

There could also be an event set for a reclamation of the Kingdom of Italy, which as pointed out was part of the original post-Caroligian Lotharingia. While granting cores and reabsorbing the KOI may be going a little far there could be an event set about recreating the KOI if Lotharingia takes the requisit cores and then releasing it as a vassal/dynastic alliance sort of thing. This would give Lotharingia an usefull medium-sized ally in its conflicts with Austria and France.

Another event was a French attempt to incite rebellion among the nobles of Lotharingia's German territories, with the French king promising aid for German independence movements in return for a free hand in taking back french-speaking parts of Lotharingia.

Another event I made was sort of an expanded version of the border dispute random event, since Lotharingia had collapsed hundreds of years before the EU2 period I thought it would be easy to dispute exactly where the old borders fall. In my event I used this to grant cores on Champagne and Nivernais (which we have in AGCEEP but did not have when I was playing straight EEP)

After this I had an short series on Austria and Lotharingia competing for influence in the HRE and a possible war over it.

I also shared the view of a separate culture/language developing in the region with a sort of fusion of German, Dutch and French (sort of like English fusing AngloSaxon and French), which should be possible given the lack of an 'official' version of these languages at the time (French from Marsailles was almost incomprehensible to a Parisian or Normandy Frenchman up until the 18th century, Napoleon had some problems with members of his army having communication problems due to them coming from widely separated parts of France).

To enhance this I had some events for Lotharingia to turn Reformed with the issue of religion providing a means of ensuring more national cohesion for the new kingdom, which has Catholic neighbours in France/Austria/Italy and Protestants in Germany/England/Scandinavia.

This worked well as the Dutch, Swiss and western German provinces turn Reformed in most cases along with some of the southern French provinces. Reformed (with lower province taxes and trade bonuses) also encourages players not to go on a major annexation spree in France or Germany but rather to expand somewhat colonially ( I gave Burgundy the Dutch leaders although I changed some of the names).

Anyway this post is getting excessively long so I'll leave it at that. Like I said I just hope this goes somewhere this time because I think Burgundy has lost out too often to the 'Byzantium Obsession'.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

Ack, Swiss. I had been thinking about mentioning the two, but when I got around to it, I clean forgot about the Bernians.

The Kingdom of Italy idea sounds interesting, And it may be something to consider either for the late game or for the Burgundian Sucession Crisis (in the event of super mega victory over Austria). It would also add a possibility to the Kingdom of Italy sequence for the Italian minors, meaning they can get the crown off Austria, the Pope, or Lotharingia (who claim the crown as theirs to give out).

The Border Disputes I like. But The cores on Nivernais and Champagne aren't there, hence the events in post #3. Currently, I think that the Burgundian Sucession crisis should be the other way for Burgundy to get these cores. Thus the border disputes could be used on the eastern line of the Empire. However, since we will potentially add in German unificaition events at some point, we should be careful that these events can still happen if the borders of the Crown of Germany are redrawn.

Having them turn Reformed would be interesting, as geographically, that divides Catholic Europe right down the middle from Provence to Oldenburg, which I'm sure would make Catholic powers very unhappy. More potential events there.

In the event that the Kingdom of Germany forms, Lotharingia should hit the Panic button, as having France and Germany on its flanks is what ultimately got them divided before. And when you consider that "Germany" is quite a bit smaller when Lotharingia exists, Prussia will be especially eager to conquer the 4 or 5 (less, given the chances they will be annexed by others) countries that are left in the Kingdom. Even more events.

They will need a colonial AI, and some scripted leaders would be a good idea, though I'd prefer new ones to modified Dutch ones. Explorers are especially important, as they do not appear randomly for land focused powers.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Right and it would seem that no one in those instances had the power to retain the lands. With duke Charles' death in 1477, we see the same basic pattern recurring. Thus, and though you might disagree entirely, it seems he or his lineage would need to stick around for a few more years in order to have a chance at establishing/re-creating the 'middle' kingdom.

Richard Plantagenet (b. 1452) marries Anne Neville on 12th July 1472, but she dies on 16th March 1485. Richard's son, Edward, is born in December of 1473.

Mary of Burgundy (b.1457) marries Maximilian of Austria on 18th August, 1477 and dies 27th March, 1482.

The marriage or the marriage agreement between Richard and Mary would have to occur before Richard's marriage to Anne Neville, or as a plausible consequence of a refusal of Edward IV for Richard to marry Anne. This would be a new event for ENG and there is plenty of politics in the historical situation to fill an event here. George Plantagenet, Richard's older brother, had married Anne's older sister and wanted all of Warwick's lands for himself (Anne and her sister were Warwick's only children and direct heirs), George even went so far as to hold Anne a virtual prisoner - Richard was said to have 'rescued' her. Edward IV decided the only way to solve his sibling's squabling was to split the lands in two between his two brothers, and rode roughshod over several other of Warick's indirect heirs in order to do so. Edward effectively broke the laws of inheritance but legitimized his prerogative with an act of parliament.

Now, at the risk of sacrificing stability and increasing discontent in the north, Edward could easily forbid Richard's marriage to Anne, thus siding with George, and at the same time appease Richard with attempts to win Richard a foreign bride.

Burgundy would ultimately have the say in whether or not to accept such a proposal from Edward...and so this could be one tidy way of triggering a pretty sound future for Burgundy. Maximilian, however, would then take a different bride replacing Mary, and so the Hapsburgs can gain the throne of both Spain and Austria, as usual, and the Austrians would be removed from the picture when Charles dies in 1477. Unfortunately for the Burgundian player, such a marriage would certainly delay prospects for Burgundy achieving 'kingdom' status from the HRE provided Burgundy survives.

In the event that Burgundy refuses Edward's proposal, the question is whether or not to assume that Richard marries Anne. If Richard doesn't, then he's obviosuly free for Edward IV to make a second overture to Mary herself when her father dies in 1477. If he is married to Anne, then it's hard to believe Richard would be able to get a papl dispensation for a marriage between himself and Mary, considering he has a child with Anne at this point. And so history would proceed more or less as it did, with the only chance being when Anne dies in 1485, but unfortunately, by this time, Mary's already dead.

So, with this in mind - and I am ignoring the "extension of Charles' life" route which I have a problem with anyways because he still has to die at some point, thus effectively only delaying a succession dispute - IMO, the cleanest method of handling this is in the early 1470s with what I've outlined above. There really are a good number of pros and cons to such a marriage between England and Burgundy and I can list a few if desired. The biggest con being a big delay in achieving that Lotharingian goal so desired by Charles. The biggest pros being virtually guaranteed independence from FRA well into the next generations, and lucrative commercial proposects...and btw, let's also recall that Charles is married to Edward's sister at this time.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

Well, it sounds good, but I am strongly opposed to removing the possibility of Charles not dying. You say that it wouldn't prevent a sucession crisis, only delay it, but what if in the intervening years, Charles has a son? That's a clear line of sucession, so no crisis.
Also bear in mind that if Edward doesn't forbid Richard's marriage (historical, right? So it happens at least 85% of the time), and we remove a "Charles never died" option, then the Player is left with a marriage to Austria or France, both of which spell doom for Burgundy. The player shouldn't be forced into bad decisions.

Currently, there is the possibility of gaining the Crown of Lotharingia way back in 1442, well before any sucession crisis looks likely, so assuming that happens, the Lotharingian dreams are not put off, and eveything is hunky dory. As I understand it, the second time Charles asked for the crown, it was only decided against giving him it on accout of him being dead. At the time, the marriage to Maximillian was already planned, and it looked like the Habsburgs were about to marry into the line and gain the crown as Hereditary as opposed to Electively. If the throne is granted here, then a marriage to anyone but Maximillian would cause it to be revoked and possibly a war. If not, the Habsburgs shouldn't intefere directly in the Sucession, though they might indirectly. The result would be a War with France when the French try to reclaim their French lands if Mary marries Richard. Once the war is won, Richard and Mary should be able to ask for the Crown. If it isn't granted, they should be able to demand the crown, causing war with Austria when refused of it.

Erm, as well as all that, is it a problem that Marie is Richard's niece? Her Mother, Margaret, is his father Richard's sister...
Oh and I should warn you that this is seriously eerie, but look at this picture of Charles the Bold. Does he look identical to anyone you know? Scary...

 

[unmerged(28992)]

Yeah my events were a little bit rough since I only made them for myeslf and before the AGCEEP merger so they would need a fair bit of work. I was also unsure how to reconcile a Reformed Lotharingia handing out a crown to a Catholic KOI, but I sure someone else can

I tend to think going Reformed is fairly necessary for a number of reasons.

If it doesn't happen Lotharingia would be crippled by having half of its provinces turn to the 'wrong' religion, including very hard to convert ones like Bern and Pfalz etc that currently have different culture.

Another thing is that if with the exception of Scotland almost every country that turns Reformed on a regular basis will lie with the borders of Lotharingia, almost eliminating the religion from the game, which seems a little exteme.

Plus I really do feel that from a non-gamey point of view it really does provide a way to bind such a new and diverse kingdom together since religion was so important at the time, much more so than nationality, it gives ethnically and linguistically diverse peasants, burghers and nobles an excellent reason to support their Kingdom.

A Reformed Lotharingia also has a pretext to get involved in the French Wars of religeon too, although we'd have to be careful that it didn't lead to a total crippling of France so maybe just some England style Support for the Huegonauts type events rather than a war.

I'm not sure what you have in mind for colonisation but when I played my events I tended to concentrate on what is now the southern states of the USA in the Gulf of Mexico, using the pretext that the cotton industry there was used to fuel the textile industry of the Dutch provinces. This worked reasonably well as being Reformed meant being able to cheerfully ignore Spain's TOT claims.

The main problem I see with this is that it interferes with French colonisation in the area. However I find the France AI tends to colonise mainly in Canada and I figured Lotharingia wouldn't mind sticking it to the French by taking over in the Gulf states area. Besides the Netherlands tends to colonise wherever it feels like anyway.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

Currently as Lotharingia, I'm focusing on historic England and Dutch areas, primarily because they aren't colonising anyway (one for an especially obvious reason). My inner powergamer also overruled me and convinced me to smack down a trading post beside an entirely rebel controlled Portugese Brazil... The Gulf of Mexico sounds interesting, and I'd also suggest Central and Southern Africa. If events are ever coded to cede the Dutch the Spice Islands (as opposed to making a historical player gain about 40BB in the process of conquering them), Lotharingia should get those events too.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Well, it sounds good, but I am strongly opposed to removing the possibility of Charles not dying. You say that it wouldn't prevent a sucession crisis, only delay it, but what if in the intervening years, Charles has a son? That's a clear line of sucession, so no crisis.

Yes, that's one way of going around it, but IMO, it's not in line with what is the 'norm'. If we did what you suggest, we're not only make a monarch last longer but that same monarch has a fantasy son. In the mod, there aren't too many examples of one or the other method being used. When we dream up new dynastys or new monarch lineages, generally we try to think of historically-plausible alternative options rather than - for example - simply extending Sally IV's life here, shortening Bill VI's life there, and having Susy III have a ton of extra babies. Personally, I don't want to see a mod runaway with fantasy and though I may be wrong, I think I speak for most of the High Councilors when I say that.

I prefer the historical approach, but I also like alternative 'what if's' too, this is why I joined the project. However, those 'what if's' to me, mean plausible historical alternatives. I realize that this may sound fairly rediculous to some but I feel that is the nature of this mod.

Also bear in mind that if Edward doesn't forbid Richard's marriage (historical, right? So it happens at least 85% of the time), and we remove a "Charles never died" option, then the Player is left with a marriage to Austria or France, both of which spell doom for Burgundy.

yeah, that's a good point!..but like I said, by the time of Charles' death Richard is married to Anne and has a 4 year old child - Richard is not really an option at that point...however, Anne dies in 1485 and Richard would be free to re-marry...for Burgundy, provided the Burgundian player can resist the French and Austrians until then, and Richard has not usurped the throne of ENG, Richard could remarry - I doubt the Burgundians would want Richard III the father of the next duke of Burgundy! Henry Tudor would be being backed by the French, and with Richard as Edward V's Protector, an ENG-BUR marriage alliance would certainly seem appropriate.

This still leaves Burgundy's future with ENG though...and unfortunately, I don't see another suitable match for Mary amongst the ranks of the ENG nobility
Perhaps there are other suitable matches on the continent?

Currently, there is the possibility of gaining the Crown of Lotharingia way back in 1442, well before any sucession crisis looks likely, so assuming that happens, the Lotharingian dreams are not put off, and eveything is hunky dory. As I understand it, the second time Charles asked for the crown, it was only decided against giving him it on accout of him being dead.

According to what I have read, Charles' last negotiations with the Habsburgs were broken off by the Habsburgs because Charles' wanted too many concessions. Also, why was 1442 taken as the date for a Lotharingian event? Are these events in the fantasy event file? - I won't have access to AGCEEP files for aother week

At the time, the marriage to Maximillian was already planned, and it looked like the Habsburgs were about to marry into the line and gain the crown as Hereditary as opposed to Electively. If the throne is granted here, then a marriage to anyone but Maximillian would cause it to be revoked and possibly a war.

why don't we eliminate the possibility of the Burgundians acquiring the crown before 1442? The Burgundians should A) hold all the territory under the Lotharingian Empire and B) hold it for long enough to force the HRE and even FRA to recognize Burgundy as a kingdom. Surely 1442 is too early for something like this to occur? Would it not be cool to try to tie the succession crisis of 1477 and Burgundian struggle for 'kingdomhood' into a single late 15th century-early 16th century epic?

Once the war is won, Richard and Mary should be able to ask for the Crown. If it isn't granted, they should be able to demand the crown, causing war with Austria when refused of it.

This is basically what I'm suggesting...Honestly, I doubt the Austrians ever really considered giving away their western borderlands to create a new Lotharingian Empire. For one, they weren't too successful at keeping Burgundy intact because they lacked the power to do so. For two, they knew that Mary would have a damn hard time taking the Burgundian 'throne' for herself, and so by marrying her to Maximilian, they could simply inherit their old lands back, instead of yielding power by creating another kingdom. IMO, Burgundy should fight for kingdomhood!

How about if we give Mary the option to rule for herself until she finds a suitable mate? Choosing this option post 1477 creates massive instability, revolts and pisses off both France and Austria who should really declare war on Burgundy.

The only problem with Burgundian survival and Mary and Maximilian's marriage is that Philip needs to go rule Castile else we really screw up alot of history!

Erm, as well as all that, is it a problem that Marie is Richard's niece? Her Mother, Margaret, is his father Richard's sister...

Not so my friend Mary is not Margaret's daughter. Margaret (Edward IV's and Richard's sister) was Charles' second wife. His first was Isabella, who gave birth to Mary. Thus Mary is not related to any English royals or nobles.

Oh and I should warn you that this is seriously eerie, but look at this picture of Charles the Bold. Does he look identical to anyone you know? Scary...

I think he looks like Prince Charles...and that is weird.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I support adding a Lotharingian culture, since it would solve a problem. As I understand it from my memory of Twoflowers earlier posts on this subject it should be there from start and eventually disappear?