Reference post for those interested in the background events to formulate the candidates:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawkeeper
So, an union with René II would be possible if he was 'free'. But in this site, if you look at G2, you see the divorce (I suppose) in 1475. So, in 1477 René II is free. The Vaudémont were allied to the Burgundians at the time of the dispute between the Anjou's and the Vaudemont's, hence the part played by Burgundy, but difficulties arose later, since Charles the Bold took the control of Lorraine & Bar. IMO, the reason he was not chosen is that war was going on between Burgundy and Lorraine, whereas there were no true fights against the French or the Habsburgs at that precise time. That, and the fact René II had received money from the King of France to raise his mercenaries to reclaim Lorraine. But had he been René I's heir, as should have been as he was his grandson, he would have had greater power, perhaps enough to be a valuable suitor (hence, before the war erupts, in 1475, when his marriage with Joanna of Harcourt ends).
BTW, I'm surprised that René II is said "of Anjou", as he was an Anjou only through his mother, but a Vaudémont by his father.
So, my suggestion is that in 1474 PRO gets the choice between two heirs, Charles III of Maine (historical) and René II (ahistorical). We could make a second event in case relations between PRO and LOR are high (>150 ?), and maybe if one is the vassal of the other, and this alternate event would have reversed options (and the original would have a no = eventXXXX to avoid duplicates) ? If René II is chosen as heir, then in 1475, at the time of his separation of Joanna of Harcourt, an event for Burgundy for a possible marriage of Marguerite to René II (a "no" as historical choice, I suppose). If the marriage is decided, then this would change the future events (as there would be no war between Burgundy and Lorraine).
And a shorter version:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbon22
Two main branches:
1)historical, Rene I has disinherited his daughters son (Rene II); independent ahistorical choice for Rene II to marry Mary of Burgundy occurs provided Burgundy is not at war with Lorraine, and if Burgundy has >100 relations with Lorraine?
2)ahistorical, Rene I makes an amazing attempt to unify a proto-empire that is split like crazy geographically, and gives the inheritance to Rene II; independent ahistorical choice for Rene II to marry Mary of Burgundy provided Burgundy is not at war with Provence or Lorraine, and if Burgundy has >50 relations with Lorraine/Provence.
btw, do you think Provence should inherit Lorraine if Rene II becomes duke of Anjou? I think that should be the case, rather than Lorraine inheriting Provence. We could make it work both ways though, of course, for player controlled.
OK, so this summerizes an ahistorical candidate for Mary of Burgundy. We do not need to include Rene II in the 1477 options.
To take into account for the new events for Provence:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
But Louis [XI] knew that Charles of Maine was heirless and liable to die soon, so that all his claims would devolve on the crown. So he basically coerced Rene I into making Charles his heir, which in the case of Provence and Naples was pretty close to being impossible...As an aside, it's worth pointing out that Rene I was the grandson of Juan I King of Aragon. When much of Catalonia revolted in the 1460s they offered the throne of Aragon to Rene I, who traveled to Barcelona and was crowned as King of Aragon. As such, Rene II, in addition to his other claims, has a claim to Aragon.
Isaac also argues that Rene II had no claim to Anjou and Maine on the basis of Salic Law. The argument against Salic Law is a well known one to the community, and that is that it's only applicable to the CROWN of France, and is questionably applicable to its various fiefs (why wasn't Brittany simply annexed right away once Francis II died for example? Why wasn't Salic law applicable to this French fief?). At any rate, post 162 is an enlightening on on this matter. And finally, 164 removes any doubt. Rene II can definately inherit Anjou and Maine provided historical choices are made.
As is Isaac Brock's post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
Quote:
Rene II. failed to get recognition of his claims on the Duchy of Bar from King Louis XII. of France; so he turned to Duke Charles the Bold, entering into an alliance with the latter, permitting Burgundian troops to be stationed in Lorraine. This was a cardinal mistake, as Lorraine now sank to the status of a Burgundian vassall. In effect, the acquisition of Lorraine formed the hitherto scattered Burgundian lands into one territorial complex.
Duke Rene II., intending to regain independence for Lorraine-Bar, entered into a secret alliance with the Swiss Federation, the Alsatian cities and Archduke Sigismund (who ruled the Upper Alsace), an alliance supported by King Louis XII. of France. In 1475, Duke Charles the Bold of Burgundy occupied Lorraine with Nancy and formally claimed it for the House of Burgundy.
And some more info from Isaac and his internet source
Quote:
Once more the Duke threw himself on the mercy of the Duchess of Savoy, whose kindness he soon afterwards ill repaid by making her his prisoner. After a period of deep depression, bordering on insanity, Charles was roused once more to action by the news that Rene of Lorraine was reconquering his duchy. Nancy and other places had already fallen, when Charles appeared at the head of an army. Rene, leaving orders to hold Nancy, retired from the province to seek aid abroad. The Swiss gave leave to raise volunteers; the King of France supplied him with money; and, while Nancy still held out, Rene at length, in bitter weather, set out from Basel. As he approached Nancy, Charles met him with his beleaguering army to the south of the town (January 5, 1477); but the Swiss were not to be denied. Once more Charles was defeated; this time he met with his death. His vast plans, which had even included the acquisition of Provence by bequest from the Duke of Anjou, so as, with the control or possession of Savoy, to complete the establishment of his rule from the Mediterranean to the mouth of the Rhine, were extinguished with him.
The Duke of Anjou, as holding in addition Lorraine, Provence, the titular crown of Naples, and the family appanage of Maine, was another powerful rival to the King. But Charles VII had married an Angevin wife, and was in intimate alliance with the House of Anjou. Throughout his long reign the Duke Rene (1431-81), more interested in literature and art and other peaceful pastimes than in political intrigue, gave little trouble to France. His son, John of Calabria, joined in the League of the Public Weal, but was afterwards reconciled to Louis XI. He lost his life in an adventurous attempt to win a crown in Catalonia (1470). The grandson, Nicolas of Calabria, was one of the aspirants to the hand of Mary of Burgundy, but died in 1472. The independence of Anjou, like that of most of the later appanages, was strictly limited. The Duke received neither tattle nor aides, but generally drew a fixed pension. Strictly he had not the right to maintain or levy troops, though this rule inevitably failed to act in time of revolution. But the domain profits were considerable, and the lack of direct royal government was a considerable diminution of the King's authority, and might at any time become a serious danger. In 1474 Louis XI took over the administration of Anjou, and in 1476, as it was reported that Rene had been meditating the bequest of Provence to Charles of Burgundy, the King forced on the old Duke a treaty whereby he engaged never to cede any part of that province to the enemies of France. On the Duke's death in 1480, his nephew Charles succeeded, but only survived him for a year, when by his will all the possessions of Anjou except Lorraine reverted to the Crown. The process of consolidation was proceeding apace. Provence had never hitherto been reckoned as part of France.
And a kind of direction post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbon22
If Burgundy gained Maine, there's no reason to suggest they'd attempt to keep it with Burgundian troops. It's isolated and fairly undefendable. It's conceivable that Burgundy would hand the duchy of Anjou and County of Maine to one of his children or in the meantime, a Lieutenant or Governor. Of course that new duke would owe fealty to the Crown of France, but the point is that Burgundy would be fighting to place their own legitamate claimant to the head of the duchy. I mean the event would work something like this: In the case where Rene II has married Mary, BUR is given the chance to press Rene II's agents and appointments to run the duchy he can rightfully claim (and rightfully back up wth Burgundian wealth). Louis XI or Charles VIII then gets an event prompting them to decide whether or not to allow Rene II's prerogative, or to reject it. If they reject it, BUR should get an event that grants them a core on Maine. If BUR then wages a war, and FRA cedes Maine to BUR, one of Rene II's children should become the duke of Anjou. The other path, where Louis XI/Charles VIII allows Rene II to send a governor or whatnot to Anjou/Maine, (i.e. recognizes Rene II's right to the duchy of Anjou/ county of Maine) would simply lower tax values of Maine, perhaps, in the probable case that FRA owned Maine. Some kind of deal perhaps where BUR pays a fine, but FRA loses tax revenue from Maine.
And a summary:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbon22
...two events for Provence 1) the deal made with Louis XI in 1476 and 2) Charles (Rene I's nephew) will which devolved his inheriance to the crown of France. Clearly the second one we already have, as France inherits Provence.
Finally, the candidates and rough timing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbon22
Richard, Duke of Gloucester; before Jul 12th, 1472.
Rene II, Duke of Lorraine; after 1475
Dauphin Charles; historical time
Maximilian; historical time
Philipp of Cleves-Ravenstein; historical timing, or earlier.
