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Twoflower

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Now that the beta is released, my idea is to create several threads dealing with how the various regions of the world work out in the beta and how they could be improved. The purpose of this neither to discuss bugs (the bug thread is for that) nor to bring up entirely new suggestions (these can be made in the general discussion threads), but to evaluate what is currently in. This means that people should discuss how they like the things implemented, point out what still needs to be done (in the sense of implementing already complete and not yet included material), how well balanced the 1419 setup is, how well the game unfolds and, most importantly, which problems there are. As a base for the two last items, we of course need not theoretical considerations, but experiences from games people have played. It would already be helpful if everybody who has been playing a country outside the area or who has run a handsoff could post what happened in the area. Based on these results, we could work out how the setup, event files, ai files etc need to be improved in order to make things more realistic and help the AI behave historically.
So the first of these threads (and I hereby ask anybody who would be willing to run a similar thread for other areas, moderating the discussion there and keeping the initial post up to date, to start one) is about my personal pet-peeve, Germany.

New stuff implemented in the last beta
  • province goods revised
  • 15th century events for Brandenburg
  • gave correct English names to several German countries (Hannover became Hanover, Hessen Hesse, Helvetia Switzerland, Kleve Cleves, Pommern Pomerania)
  • moved Cleves to Münster province, created Berg in Düsseldorf; changed and added some events to make this work
  • divided up Pomerania into Pomerania and Stettin; added events for Stettin and for the Pomeranian inheritance of Stettin
  • replaced Würzburg by Bayreuth; Brandenburg owns the province at start, added events to let Bayreuth become independent
  • removed Salzburg, Magdeburg, Mainz and Strassburg from the game
  • Baden doesn't exist in 1419 anymore
  • gave Baden to Tyrol, Magdeburg to Brandenburg, Mainz to the Palatinate, Salzburg to Austria
  • Ansbach starts owned by Luxemburg (which was ruled by Jan of Bavaria, a member of the Wittelsbach branch of Bavaria-Straubing), becomes Bavarian (by the historical event options) in 1429 after a little dispute with Austria (in which the emperor, i.e. Hungary, gets a say as well)
  • implemented an improved leaderfile for Saxony

Things that still need to be done
  • Review and enhance the leaderfiles for the more important German states that are or could potentially be nice MP countries, i.e. Austria, Brandenburg-Prussia, Bavaria, the Palatinate and Hesse (this was basically already done for Hanover and Saxony)
  • review and change (carefully) provincetax and manpower towards more realism and balance
  • Implement lots of historical events dealing with various stuff
  • decide on which cultural setup to implement
  • allow for unification of Germany or a centralization of the Kingdom of Germany

Gameplay issues
  • It is too easy for Brandenburg to keep its Franconian possessions
  • It is too easy for Austria to keep Straubing, thus gaining a province cheaply and screwing Bavaria

MP issues
  • This will include everything related to which problems there are in MP and how balance etc for MP could be improved

AI behaviour issues
  • Tyrol needs to be prevented from crushing Switzerland - possible solution: remove the core on Schwyz, give Tyrol peaceful AI
  • German countries are still too aggressive; there are too many annexations going on - possible solution: give all German countries peaceful AIs in 1419, give them all +50 relation to each other
  • the alliance between Luxembourg and Hungary is no good for either of them; they get involved in wars they cannot really do anything in and that usually prompt one of their neighbours to attack them (especially Lorraine likes to dow Luxembourg when it has to support one of Hungary's wars) - possible solution: remove Luxembourg from the alliance
  • Denmark has a really annoying tendency of dowing Holstein in the first years, despite having no core, good relations and not having SHL on its hitlist - possible solution: give Denmark peaceful AI. They aren't supposed to gain or lose any territory in the first years, so why make the AI go to war?
 
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Twoflower

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New stuff in beta 1

As there was nothing really ready to be implemented from AGC (both the HRE independence events and the culture setup were highly controversial), beta 1 includes several entirely new things that are being tested. The general trend of most of these changes was to remove minor, less important states that basically did nothing in favour of consolidating the more important and powerful German states and improving balance between them. Austria was made a three-provincer, Ansbach soon becomes Bavaria's second province, Mainz replaces Ansbach as the Palatinate's second province, Brandenburg has Würzburg as a representation of its Franconian holdings (that at least the AI is bound to lose soon), Magdeburg instead of Küstrin and should be able to buy Küstrin as third province of Brandenburg proper rather quickly.
This tendency may be disputable; several people did like the enormous variety of countries in Germany and therefore may be disappointed about several of them being removed from the game. However, I think that it has several advantages:
1. The countries that were removed (with the exception of Münster) had few things about them that really justify their inclusion. They were relatively small and did hardly anything notable throughout their history.
2. The removed countries used to do stupid or ahistorical things in EU2; most often of course they were just annexed by one of their neighbours. Less AI countries usually means less AI weirdness
3. Reducing the number of countries frees up tags
4. (most importantly) Enlargeing the important countries gives them a more solid base. The AI will be much more likely to survive and do well as them and they become more viable choices in a MP game

One obvious deviation from the general policy of removing less important nations appears to be the introduction of Stettin. This is a change proposed and discussed for quite a while; its purpose (from a gameplay perspective, leaving aside historical arguments) is to weaken Pomerania and thus make Brandenburg more likely to emerge as primary power in the Northeast of Germany.
 
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At the moment, 3 games runned for 15 years and austria alliance is to strong.
In the first they eat up easily venice, in the second suisse, in the third suisse again (tyrol dowed twice). It seems tyrol is to powerful, what about taking away baden, could be a choice, anyway historically they had few to search in this province.
Stirya setup seems weird too, could be a 1 province, with krain (lubiana was anyway austrian and not a goerz province anyway). Maybe move salzburg to some other (bayern?).
Could be some solution to tweak down a bit autrian super alliance.
 

Sikker

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In the EEP Tyrol constantly DoWs Helvetia too. Sometimes they end up loosing Strassburg, sometimes Helvetia gets split up ...
I have no idea how it was IRL, but right now everyone and their aunt DoWs Helvetia if they have a common border with them ... and Tyrol is always among the first to take a shot ...
 

Twoflower

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Sikker said:
In the EEP Tyrol constantly DoWs Helvetia too. Sometimes they end up loosing Strassburg, sometimes Helvetia gets split up ...
I have no idea how it was IRL, but right now everyone and their aunt DoWs Helvetia if they have a common border with them ... and Tyrol is always among the first to take a shot ...
Tyrol has a core on Schwyz and its AI file has Switzerland on its hitlist (just was well as STR, which needs to be removed since we don't want any Tyrolian armies in Indonesia), so it is quite likely for Tyrol to dow Switzerland. This was done because the Hapsburg's old hereditary lands, the Stammlande, are situated in Switzerland and were controlled by the Swiss in 1419 and the Hapsburgs in general and Tyrol, as owner of the Vor- and Stammlande, which were adjacent to Swiss territories, in particular were the mortal enemies of the Swiss Confederates (actually fighting the Hapsburgs was the reason for being of the Swiss Confederacy) and had been slowly driven away from Swiss lands throughout the 13th and 14th century. After 1419 however, besides the permanent border skirmishes and occasional attempts to seize smaller swaths of land by swiss individuals, there was just one real war between Tyrol and the Confederates, from 1458 to 1461, declared by Sigismund of Tyrol and ending in a complete disaster for the Hapsburg Duke. Obviously this doesn't really justify making the Tyrol AI attack and crush Helvetia in the first years of the game. The hitlist entry should probably be removed (Tyrol might be better off with peaceful AI in fact) and the core is perhaps not needed either; besides, with strengthened Hapsburgs, Switzerland should be made more powerful again as well (they were weakened in EEP in order to prevent them from always crushing Tyrol).
 

Sikker

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Hoe do we prevent Savoy and Milan from going face to face with the Swiss?

There always seem to arise a few skirmishes down there, and in EUII that more often than not ends with someone loosing half their lands ... not quite realistic, but perhaps that's unavoidable
 

Twoflower

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Sikker said:
Hoe do we prevent Savoy and Milan from going face to face with the Swiss?

There always seem to arise a few skirmishes down there, and in EUII that more often than not ends with someone loosing half their lands ... not quite realistic, but perhaps that's unavoidable

Well, Savoy and Milan frequently were enemies of the Swiss as well; the problem is just that wars are usually going into the wrong direction: IRL the Swiss invaded Hapsburg, Milanese and Savoyard territories, it was not their neighbours ganging up against them and dividing their lands. The too large scale of wars in EU2 is also a really bad problem in representing the various feuds going on in Germany - while IRL e.g. Brandenburg and Stettin spent several decades fighting over the Uckermark and other small border territories and cities, a war between Brandenburg and Stettin will usually result in Brandenburg annexing Stettin and sometimes (if Stettin has good allies) in Stettin taking Magdeburg. IMO the only satisfactory solution to this is to give all German states peaceful.ai throughout the 15th century and not represent their minor feuds as wars in EU2.
 

Twoflower

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Ryan said:
yet if german states dont gobble each other up wont the human player have an easy time taking them down one by one?

Don't think so, since
  • annexing more AI states means more badboy
  • annexing more AI states means worse relations
  • more badboy and worse relations means worse chances to win imperial elections and less income from being emperor, which means Austria and Spain have quite an incentive not to annex everybody in sight
  • due to AI manpower cheats, two one province AI states will (together) have a much larger army than one two province AI state
  • more AI states will have more big brothers to protect them
  • taking on several one-provincers one by one instead of attacking larger countries with two or more provinces means more declarations of war that get you stability, bb and relation penalties
  • A German minor annexing another usually leads to a chain reaction with more annexations and lots of dows of opportunity, allowing the player to take advantage of the situation. If the German states remain peaceful, they will use their whole army and attention against the player who attacks them.
Besides, this is also a matter of historical realism. For a long time it was simply impossible to just invade a principality of the empire and annex it, hence this should not be done by the AI in EU2.
In general, it is true that AI behaviour should not be completely predictable, and there should be some possibilities for alternate history where the AI does things it could have done, but did not do IRL, but the AI should nevertheless not do things it could not have done historically.
 
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Norrefeldt

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Small fix:
Code:
#Death of the last Duke of Jülich-Gelre#
event = {
        id = 75000
        trigger = { exists = MUN }
        random = no
        country = GEL
        name = "EVENTNAME75000"
        desc = "EVENTHIST75000"
        style = 1
        date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1423 }
        offset = 100
        deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1424 }

        action_a ={
                name = "ACTIONNAME75000A"
                command = { type = breakdynastic  which = MUN } 
                command = { type = provinceculture which = -2 value = dutch }
                command = { type = add_countryculture   which = dutch } 
                command = { type = remove_countryculture   which = german }
                command = { type = stability   value = -2 }
                command = { type = relation   which = MUN value = -150 }
                command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 2 }
                command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -4 }
                command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -5 }
                command = { type = provincemanpower which = -2 value = -2 }
                command = { type = trigger which = 235000 }
		}

        action_b ={
                name = "ACTIONNAME75000B"
                command = { type = trigger which = 235001 }
		}
}
#Death of the last Duke of Jülich-Gelre#
event = {
        id = 75021
        trigger = { NOT = { exists = MUN } }
        random = no
        country = GEL
        name = "EVENTNAME75000"
        desc = "EVENTHIST75021"
        style = 1
        date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1423 }
        offset = 100
        deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1424 }

        action_a ={
                name = "ACTIONNAME75000A"
                command = { type = provinceculture which = -2 value = dutch }
                command = { type = add_countryculture   which = dutch } 
                command = { type = remove_countryculture   which = german }
                command = { type = stability   value = -2 }
                command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 2 }
                command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -4 }
                command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = -5 }
                command = { type = provincemanpower which = -2 value = -2 }
                  }
}
These events are mutually exclusive but can both happen right now, though not very likely. Added NOT = { event = the other event } are needed.
 

Twoflower

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Does nobody have any interest or comments? :(
The ideas to fix AI behaviour seem to work rather well, hardly ever makes a war between AI countries happen.
I'd like some opinions on the Hapsburgs, concerning both historical realism and balance (especially in MP). Basically, now almost all provinces that could be considered Hapsburg possessions in 1419 are owned by the Hapsburgs now (ok, Istria and Schwyz could in theory be given to them as well, but that would obviously be wrong), which makes them rather strong. I wonder whether some things need to be done to contain them (strengthen Hungary and Helvetia in the 15th century?) and whether Austria isn't too big now, especially in comparison to Bavaria. Up to the 17th century, Austria (the country itself, not the Hapsburgs) was in fact not much more important or powerful than Bavaria (Munich, not Vienna, was regarded as most crucial ally against protestantism by Spain, and the Duke of Bavaria, not the emperor, was the head of catholicism in Germany). Even later, Bavaria was always quite a threat to the Emperor. Therefore, as already suggested in the past, the Salzburg province could as well be given to an independent Landshut, ending up in possession of Bavaria. Of course, that would make Bavaria rather big and a one-province Landshut might cause the same problems as Salzburg did.
 

Twoflower

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Alright, this is the promised revised list of Brandenburg-Prussian leaders....most of the changes have been explained in the old thread. Now we just need to figure stats. Beyond are just rough proposals.

Friedrich I: 1415 - 07.06.1437, rank 0
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 4 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege

Johann der Alchymist (dormant): 1426 - 1440 (thereafter a leader for Bayreuth until 1457), rank 0
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege

Albrecht Achilles (dormant, awaken either in 1440 if the Hohenzollern possessions remain united or in 1470 when he succeeds to the Electorate): 1440 - 11.03.1486, rank 0
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege

Friedrich Wilhelm I: 1640 - 1688, rank 0
current stats: 2 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 4 shock, 3 fire, 1 siege

Derfflinger: 1654 - 04.02.1695, rank 2
current stats: 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 4 fire, 2 siege
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 4 fire, 1 siege

Anhalt-Dessau: 1695 - 09.04.1747, rank 1
current stats: 4 maneuver, 4 shock, 4 fire, 3 siege
suggested stats: : 4 maneuver, 5 shock, 5 fire, 1 siege

Wartensleben: 1701 - 1710, rank 3
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege

Schwerin: 1720 - 06.05.1757, rank 1
current stats: 4 maneuver, 4 shock, 4 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 5 maneuver, 5 shock, 4 fire, 0 siege

Friedrich der Große: 31.05.1740 - 17.08.1786, rank 0
current stats: 6 maneuver, 6 shock, 6 fire, 1 siege
suggested stats: : no change needed

Prinz Heinrich: 31.05.1740 - 17.08.1786, rank 1
current stats: 4 maneuver, 5 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 4 maneuver, 5 shock, 4 fire, 0 siege

Ferdinand von Braunschweig (dormant, also for Hanover and England): 1740 - 1766, rank 1
current stats (for Hanover): 4 maneuver, 4 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 4 maneuver, 5 shock, 5 fire, 0 siege

Zieten: 1740 - 27.01.1786, rank 3
current stats: 4 maneuver, 4 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : no change needed

Seydlitz: 1752 - 08.11.1773, rank 4
current stats: 4 maneuver, 6 shock, 1 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : no change needed

Hohenlohe: 1786-1806, rank 2
current stats: 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 1 maneuver, 3 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege

Karl Ferdinand von Braunschweig: 1787 - 1794, rank 1
current stats (for Hanover): 2 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 4 fire, 0 siege

Blücher: 1787 - 12.09.1819, rank 1
current stats: 4 maneuver, 4 shock, 2 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 4 shock, 5 fire, 1 siege

Tauentzien: 1806 – 1824, rank 4
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 2 siege

Bülow: 1808 - 25.02.1816, rank 3
current stats: 5 maneuver, 3 shock, 4 fire, 0 siege
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 4 shock, 4 fire, 2 siege

Kleist: 1808 -1823, rank 3
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 3 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege

Yorck: 1811 – 1830, rank 4
current stats: doesn't exist yet
suggested stats: : 4 maneuver, 3 shock, 3 fire, 0 siege
 
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2 siege for both Tauentzien and Bulow seems excessive. What's your thinking behind those stats?

I'm not so sure you aren't giving Karl Ferdinand of Brunswick more credit than he's due. I'd drop at least one of his stats.

Straight 5s for Ferdinand of Brunswick also seems a little high. If I'm not mistaken his main opponents (Broglie, Richelieu?) have pretty bad stats. I'd be more inclined to put him at 4-5-4-1 at the most. If I remember correctly he did take rather a lot of fortified towns in Westphalia and the Rhineland, so the siege might be justified.

Schwerin and Dessau at the same time will now be monsters. I'd be inclined to drop one of them by one point simply for gameplay reasons. No real historical justification for this so feel free to dismiss it. And it's certainly better then 3 siege for Dessau as of right now.

By the way, what about Bevern? Did you feel he wan't around long enough.

Overall I think most of the changes are definite improvements. Nice work.
 

Twoflower

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Isaac Brock said:
2 siege for both Tauentzien and Bulow seems excessive. What's your thinking behind those stats?
Tauentzien was quite famous for his sieging and assaulting abilities. he took Wittenberg by assault and the famous fortress of Magdeburg by siege within less than half a year; perhaps the only real Prussian siege expert. I gave Bülow 2 for siege because he managed to liberate the Netherlands so quickly....this is more controversial though, 1 probably suffice.
I'm not so sure you aren't giving Karl Ferdinand of Brunswick more credit than he's due. I'd drop at least one of his stats.
Merely by his battle record he was not too successful, yes; his reputation was rather good, though, and he did not do too badly against the French, whose generals at the time are quite decent....remember also that I have him live only until 1794...still, the 4 might not be needed.
Straight 5s for Ferdinand of Brunswick also seems a little high. If I'm not mistaken his main opponents (Broglie, Richelieu?) have pretty bad stats. I'd be more inclined to put him at 4-5-4-1 at the most. If I remember correctly he did take rather a lot of fortified towns in Westphalia and the Rhineland, so the siege might be justified.
Guess you're right, those 5s were rather optimistic, although he was pretty brillant, and gained several victories when badly outnumbered....after all, this is why I have put the stats up for discussion :) Agree about the siege, too.

Schwerin and Dessau at the same time will now be monsters. I'd be inclined to drop one of them by one point simply for gameplay reasons. No real historical justification for this so feel free to dismiss it. And it's certainly better then 3 siege for Dessau as of right now.
Ummm yes, but they were around at the same time, and commanded different armies. 18th century Prussia should have quite an advantage from its leaders, and I think it's quite important to not let them get all their great guys after 1740, since this might in MP result in Prussia's potential opponents just crushing it before that year. On the other hand, what about letting Heinrich start only in the 1750s? He didn't have any independent command in the first two Silesian Wars afaik, and generally was not yet involved much.
By the way, what about Bevern? Did you feel he wan't around long enough.
Err, no, just forgot him, sorry :) What stats should he get?
Btw, as you may have noticed I added Wartensleben; he didn't do much in Prussian service, but was rather renowned, and for game balance I felt that Prussia needs a second leader between 1695 and 1710 - after all it used to have Friedrich I.
 

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2 seige is very powerful. The Netherlands fell because it wasn't really being defended and the Prussian army was much larger than any defenders. I'd remove Bulow's siege rating - I see him as more of a battle commander. Tauentzien is less obvious to me. I'd prefer a 1 in siege, but there is clearly a case for a 2. I just think there are too many 2's in the game already.

I just wanted to raise the point about Dessau and Schwerin. I'm fine with it as is.

Bevern shouldn't get any better than average stats. 3230?
 

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On the base of an excellent internet biography database (http://mdz2.bib-bvb.de/~ndb/) and of several books I obtained in my university's library, I have some guys active between 1419 and 1530 who could be used as leaders, for several German countries. I did not include those I found that did not have any particular accomplishments, but nevertheless the standards should be rather low, considering that these would be added for countries that currently have few or no leaders.

Baumkirchner
Andreas Baumkirchner
First mentioned as commander of a border district in 1447. Heroically defended Wiener Neustadt for the Emperor in 1452. Switched sides in 1453 and served Ulrich of Cilli until the latter's death. Reconciled with Friedrich III, led the Emperor's army in the struggle for the Hungarian throne with Matthias Corvinus. Abandoned Friedrich again in 1463 because he was not satisfied with his pay. Staged revolts of the Styrian nobility against the Emperor in 1467 and 1469, both failed. Friedrich III had him executed in Graz in 1471 despite a guarantee of safe conduct.
Generally deserves to be in, however the question is when and for whom. His biggest success was in the service of Friedrich III, however for most of his life he opposed him. Styria can use a leader though

H. Fürstenberg
Heinrich von Fürstenberg
Became marshall of Emperor Maximilian in 1496, participated in the Italian campaign of the same year. Appointed commander of the Emperor's army in the Vorlande during the Swabian War in 1499. Defeated by the Swiss near Dornach, he was killed in that battle.
No special accomplishments, not needed that much, except for the purpose of giving Austria more leaders at that time

W. Fürstenberg
Wolfgang von Fürstenberg
Brother of Heinrich. Became the head of the regency council of Wirtemberg in 1497. Commanded the army of Wirtemberg in the Swabian war against the Swiss in 1499. Defeated a small Swiss army near Nach, captured several villages. Defeated badly near Konstanz. Gave up his offices in Wirtemberg and entered the service of Maximilian in 1502. Participated in the War of Landshut succession. Accompanied Philipp the Handsome in his voyage to Spain. Fell ill and died during the Italian campaign of 1509.
could be a leader for Wirtemberg, since it has really few; didn't do much for Austria (and Austria has Maximilian at that time)

Halberstadt
Hänseken von Halberstadt
Lansquenet captain; conquered the Wursten and Hadeln districts from Lauenburg for the Archbishop of Bremen in 1524. Devastated the territory of the city of Bremen around 1530 until he was captured and killed by the citizens on February 4th 1530.
He was not outstanding, but Bremen has no leaders at all and he should be included for that reason

Herter von Dußlingen
Wilhelm Herter von Dußlingen
Served the Count of Wirtemberg since 1455. Supreme commander of Wirtemberg's army in the war against the Palatinate of 1462. Abandoned Wirtemberg and entered the service of Sigismund of Tyrol as governor of the city of Waldshut. Remained in charge of the city (and thus switched to Burgundian service) when the Vorlande were mortgaged to Burgundy in 1469. Took the side of Sigismund when war between Burgundy and Tyrol began in 1474. Commanded the allied army of Tyrol, the Swiss and the citizens of Strassburg and gained a victory at Héricourt. Participated in the capturing of Grandson in 1475. Basically the person responsible for the victories at Murten and Nancy. Died on March 2nd 1477.
Quite a brillant record (Murten and Nancy are among the most important battles of their decade), also both Wirtemberg and Tyrol lack leaders. He should be in for both of them, serving Wirtemberg from 1455 until 1467 and Tyrol 1467 - 1477

Löffelholz
Thomas Löffelholz
Having participated in Maximilian's Hungarian campaign of 1490 and served the Palatine Elector, he entered the service of Albrecht of Bavaria-Munich in 1504. Quite successful during the War of Landshut succession, in which he captured several places and won a battle at Siebenburg (against Bohemian mercenaries) and several smaller engagements. Continued to serve the Duke of Bavaria, mostly in diplomatic missions. Crushed revolting peasants in 1524 near Kleinfißighofen, participated in the war against the peasants in Salzburg (under the command of Frundsberg).
Not exceptional, but could be in since Bavaria has nobody else at that time

Osten
Dinnies von der Osten
A Pomeranian knight and confidant of King Erik. He was consigned to crush the defiant city of Kolberg in 1462, first failed. Eventually however managed to force them to surrender. Died on May 5th 1477
He might be included for the sole reason of being one of the few (the only?) Pomeranian leaders mentioned anywhere

Salm
Niklas zu Salm
Famous as defender of Vienna. Participated as subordinate officer in the Swabian War and the War of Landshut succession. Became commander of the troops in Lower Austria in 1511. Had an important role in the Austro-Venetian war of 1514. Drove away the Venetians sieging Marano, defeated an army under Giovanni Vitturi near Castiglione. Mentioned again as leader of the Austrian cavalry at Pavia, where he killed the horse of Francis. Crushed revolting peasants in Styria in 1525. Appointed supreme commander of the Austrian army in the Hungarian war after the former leader Margrave Casimir of Brandenburg-Culmbach fell ill in 1527. Pursued the retreating army of Zapolya, in the process captured Erlau and won a smaller engagement at Sájo-Lád and two big battles near Tokay, in the first of which he managed to fight back after a foray by the troops of Zapolya, in the second of which he annihilated large parts of the army. Thereafter took several fortresses and cities. Went to Vienna when the Turks were approaching and quickly organised the defense. His deeds during the first siege of Vienna against a terribly superior army made him almost as big a popular hero as was Starhemberg in 1683. After the liftng of the siege, he slowly pursued the Ottoman army and retook Raab, Komorn, Martinsberg and Gran (sorry for using German city names btw). Already 71, he retired from his positions on March 24th 1530 and died later that year.
Has to be in

Stein
Brandolf vom Stein
commanded the troops of Bern in the battles of Grandson and Nancy, also led the Swiss army in the Swabian war of 1499 and won the battle of Dornach
Borderline, like several other Swiss guys. They should get some leaders at that time, though

Wisbeck
Georg Wisbeck
Won a feud against the Archbishop of Salzburg, whose territory his hereditary possessions bordered, in 1502. Took the side of the Palatinate in the War of Landshut succession and was considered the most able officer of the Elector. Started the war by occupying Landshut on April 17th 1504. Pillaged Bavaria and captured several places. Refered to as the Elector's highest commander. Began a campaign for Munich on October 11th 1504, and began to siege the city. Eventually had to lift the siege because he did not have enough artillery. No more military actions after the end of the war, died in 1518.
No special accomplishments, could be in if Sickingen is dropped (as he should be, since he did not serve the Elector)

EDIT: I just realised I contradicted my own principle and in fact should have posted this to the other thread....well, whatever ;)
 
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good points on the german minors, Twoflower. And if you say that the testing is comming along nicely i am even more exited. tons of minors, all wielding incredibly large armies. that will certainly be more of a challenge than it used to.

i dont know enough about german learders to comment there.

should the emperor guanrantee the independance of all minors like in PAoE?
 

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I have a question that I hope someone can answer here.

I am playing Austria with the beta now. It is almost 1600, but the inheritance of Hungary event never fired. I figured there must be triggers that I didn't meet, so I go look in the event file. In the "Habsburg inheritance of Hungary" events, it says they are triggered by EEP_HUN events of various numbers. However, when I go look in the Hungary file, I can't seem to find them.

Now, I'm not an expert on these things, modding and otherwise, so can someone tell me if the events are there and I'm just not looking right, or are the events not there therefore I will never inherit Hungary? I've got cores on all of them, but they are a vassal of OE and I think I'll have to annex them if I want them.