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Trmdrg

Second Lieutenant
Feb 19, 2015
120
7
Would they? I just tried to simply add the later guarantees from AGCEEP 1.59b4 to the file in addition to the earlier ones I edited and China starts with noone guaranteed in 1419. My guess would be that multiple entries for a country do not work but that the latest date overwrites the earlier one.


I did not mean to say that it does not technically work. What I meant is that a human player ought to do his own guaranteering using the ingame option in Diplomacy to do so and using a diplomat for it.


The last AGCEEP version bundeled with FtG was 1.58 as far as I remember, so 1.59 and the 1.59b4 hotfix should have corrected several errors too.


Both. Muscovy did not conquer the tatar lands in large amounts before first uniting the russian lands. Even Kazan, which is the nearest Khanate, did not fall completely before Muscovy did become Russia.
I am sorry I misunderstood you at first. Yes, in the case of a single country-tag, the latest entry overwrites the earlier one.

I think this is not about when the Grand Principality of Moscow / Russia began to subjugate the nearest khanates, but when the Tatar culture had already deeply penetrated the Russian culture. For example, in terms of language it already had. And in terms of political organisation — Russian rulers received the jarlig/yarlyk from the Mongolian rulers...
 

ConjurerDragon

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I am sorry I misunderstood you at first. Yes, in the case of a single country-tag, the latest entry overwrites the earlier one.

I think this is not about when the Grand Principality of Moscow / Russia began to subjugate the nearest khanates, but when the Tatar culture had already deeply penetrated the Russian culture. For example, in terms of language it already had. And in terms of political organisation — Russian rulers received the jarlig/yarlyk from the Mongolian rulers...
Which is why Muscovy starts the game in 1419 as a vassal of the Golden Horde and ends their overlordship only with the "Standing at the Ugra" event.
Having your boss be a tatar does not mean that you as their underling embrace their culture to a point that their people would follow you, just like them before. Only when Muscovy threw off the tatar yoke, became Russia and became powerful enough to actually annex the tatar khanates and tatars started to live under russian rule does having tatar culture make sense.

This is very similar to the Dauphine only receiving cores on all of France after becoming France himself. Or only the United Kingdom having all cores and later events and not England.
 

Trmdrg

Second Lieutenant
Feb 19, 2015
120
7
Which is why Muscovy starts the game in 1419 as a vassal of the Golden Horde and ends their overlordship only with the "Standing at the Ugra" event.
Having your boss be a tatar does not mean that you as their underling embrace their culture to a point that their people would follow you, just like them before. Only when Muscovy threw off the tatar yoke, became Russia and became powerful enough to actually annex the tatar khanates and tatars started to live under russian rule does having tatar culture make sense.

This is very similar to the Dauphine only receiving cores on all of France after becoming France himself. Or only the United Kingdom having all cores and later events and not England.
Cores but not culture.
Not about people who follows or not. Just about acceptance of the culture. Tatar was already an accepted culture for the Russian principalities at that time. The Tatar culture deeply penetrated all aspects of the Russian culture. The Russians already accepted the Tatars, even if the Tatars did not, if you want.

Also I am upset that you have further nerfed already pathetic Byzantium. I see no link between cores or claims and controlling. The Romaioi do not control, but they still should have national cores on that Greek-speaking lands.
I even think that in the original FTG AGCEEP Byzantium is too weak. Weaker than it should be according to history. Yes, it was in near-disaster situation at that time, but Constantinopolis with the population of 10 000. Seriously? "By 1453, when the Turks invaded the city, it had declined to 50,000" By 1453! And just the few claims. And no trading with Genoa. I even think that there should be the level 4 fortress.
(Although, it should be noted, there is a strong shortage of population in all cities of the AGCEEP world.)
 
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Cores but not culture.
Not about people who follows or not. Just about acceptance of the culture. Tatar was already an accepted culture for the Russian principalities at that time. The Tatar culture deeply penetrated all aspects of the Russian culture. The Russians already accepted the Tatars, even if the Tatars did not, if you want.
Not at all.
Yes, there may be some words that the russians leant from their tatar or rather mongol overlords. Which is similar to how french words came into the english language. In other cases words simply wander to other languages because they describe something that is lacking in that language, e.g. the german word "Kindergarten" as used in english. That in no way implies that Germany could annex England and rule without problems. A few words wander between neigbouring languages or countries that have trade contacts on a regular basis.

But "tatars" and mongols were not seen as people to be ruled under muscovite leadership together in peace with the russians but since the mongol invasion of the Rus as foreign invaders. It took a long time and the fall of any central uniting authority like the united mongol empire and the Golden Horde, that mongol rule became so splintered that they could be conquered one at at time like the spanish taifas. Muscovy certainly should not be able to rule tatar provinces without any problems, as if they were russian from the start in 1419. Tatart that would fall under Muscovite rulership in that time would rather look towards the Khan of the Golden Horde, Crimea or Kazan for guidance and to be ruled which would translate into local resistance.

If you want to play Muscovy then first unite the russian principalities, throw off the tatar yoke and be no vassal anymore, form Russia and then go conquering the tatar khanates. In that way you will gain cores on those provinces with tatar culture, too. Culture alone will not reduce the Badboy from conquering a province, that only the core does.

Or take the difficult path and conquer parts of the Golden Horde or Kazan earlier - but that will be considerably harder with far less income, manpower and more rebels from the tatar provinces.

Or use Ryazan - that principality was the first to be overrun by the mongols and had the longest contact with them, with almost the whole ruling family killed and part of the army leaving for the northern principalities. If anyone deserves tatar culture in addition to russian from the start then it is them.

Note that it is not hard at all to gain tatar culture - forming Russia and taking the Mantle of the Khans are events that can be achieved relatively easy.
If you want to keep discussing changes to the russsian principalities, please move that to this thread

Here I would like have the thread mainly to upload newer versions of the 1.59b5 AGCEEP and have problems and bugs to that version of AGCEEP. Any fundamental discussion should take place in the subforum dedicated to the area.

Also I am upset that you have further nerfed already pathetic Byzantium. I see no link between cores or claims and controlling. The Romaioi do not control, but they still should have national cores on that Greek-speaking lands.
You let yourself lead to wrong conclusions by assuming that a province with "greek" culture would have only greek people. EU2 and FtG are limited in that they always can have only 1 culture in a province and only 1 religion in a province. That should be read as the *main* culture and religion, but certainly not the only one. The Ottomans had in 1410 moved their capital from Bursa (in Anatolia) to Edirne/Adrianopel which means that they were in full control at that time. The Plus Vltra mod shows that with an additional province. As AGCEEP uses the vanilla map we have left the ottoman capital in Bursa at the start and it is moved only to Constantinople after it is conquered. Historically they had moved it to Europe decades before. Geographically Edirne would be in the same ingameprovince as Byzanz.

Byzantium did not lose because of the Ottomans. They had already lost their empire to the arabians in Egypt, to the Seljuks in the battles of Manzikert and Myriokephalon and lost control of nowadays Greece to the latin crusaders, then the serbian empire and of anything north of Byzanz to the 2nd bulgarian empire and struggled each time more to take alway less than they lost back. The population at that time would be mixed at best with parts being greek, serbian, bulgarian, albanian and even nomadic turks moving in with the osmanic troops. That is represented by an event that changes several greek provinces to turkish once the osmans take Constantinople.

What cores represent is best described in this thread:
EU2 only had one type of core which in FtG is the national core. The claimcore still allows BYZ to declare war without penalty and to take a province in a peacedeal without Badboy cost just as with a national core - the difference is only that then they will suffer 30 years of declining local resistance which is no wonder as people from many different places had moved in since they last lost control.

If you want BYZ to have more cores and be able to gain even more then play the AGCEEP Byzantium fantasy scenario because any return of BYZ to power is fantasy.

I even think that in the original FTG AGCEEP Byzantium is too weak. Weaker than it should be according to history. Yes, it was in near-disaster situation at that time, but Constantinopolis with the population of 10 000. Seriously? "By 1453, when the Turks invaded the city, it had declined to 50,000" By 1453! And just the few claims. And no trading with Genoa. I even think that there should be the level 4 fortress.
(Although, it should be noted, there is a strong shortage of population in all cities of the AGCEEP world.)
Well population in FtG (and already in EU2) never was single people. 10000 population does not equal 10.000 man. Just consider it: How would they be able to muster that many soldiers from 10.000 men? Even rabbits could not breed that fast. No, "population" rather is a number that is arbitrary and something like "taxpayers", "families" or "hearths". Other provinces have similar low population numbers for the same reason, e.g. else many Ming provinces would exceed 1.000.000 single people. The old EU2 FAQ about population is still informative:
 
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Trmdrg

Second Lieutenant
Feb 19, 2015
120
7
Meanwhile I found typos in your version. Check the goods.txt. There are several instances of "manufactory = { type = weapons income = goods }", "type = weapons income = luxury", etc.
 
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ConjurerDragon

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Meanwhile I found typos in your version. Check the goods.txt. There are several instances of "manufactory = { type = weapons income = goods }", "type = weapons income = luxury", etc.
Right, that happens when trusting that search&replace works without double-checking. Should always be yes or no after income, new version will be uploaded.
 

Trmdrg

Second Lieutenant
Feb 19, 2015
120
7
Right, that happens when trusting that search&replace works without double-checking. Should always be yes or no after income, new version will be uploaded.
Please also delete 1 megabyte of the moddebug log and 187 megabytes of your save games. :)
I can delete this messages, if you want me to.
 

Trmdrg

Second Lieutenant
Feb 19, 2015
120
7
Not at all.
Yes, there may be some words that the russians leant from their tatar or rather mongol overlords. Which is similar to how french words came into the english language. In other cases words simply wander to other languages because they describe something that is lacking in that language, e.g. the german word "Kindergarten" as used in english. That in no way implies that Germany could annex England and rule without problems. A few words wander between neigbouring languages or countries that have trade contacts on a regular basis.

But "tatars" and mongols were not seen as people to be ruled under muscovite leadership together in peace with the russians but since the mongol invasion of the Rus as foreign invaders. It took a long time and the fall of any central uniting authority like the united mongol empire and the Golden Horde, that mongol rule became so splintered that they could be conquered one at at time like the spanish taifas. Muscovy certainly should not be able to rule tatar provinces without any problems, as if they were russian from the start in 1419. Tatart that would fall under Muscovite rulership in that time would rather look towards the Khan of the Golden Horde, Crimea or Kazan for guidance and to be ruled which would translate into local resistance.

If you want to play Muscovy then first unite the russian principalities, throw off the tatar yoke and be no vassal anymore, form Russia and then go conquering the tatar khanates. In that way you will gain cores on those provinces with tatar culture, too. Culture alone will not reduce the Badboy from conquering a province, that only the core does.

Or take the difficult path and conquer parts of the Golden Horde or Kazan earlier - but that will be considerably harder with far less income, manpower and more rebels from the tatar provinces.

Or use Ryazan - that principality was the first to be overrun by the mongols and had the longest contact with them, with almost the whole ruling family killed and part of the army leaving for the northern principalities. If anyone deserves tatar culture in addition to russian from the start then it is them.

Note that it is not hard at all to gain tatar culture - forming Russia and taking the Mantle of the Khans are events that can be achieved relatively easy.
If you want to keep discussing changes to the russsian principalities, please move that to this thread

Here I would like have the thread mainly to upload newer versions of the 1.59b5 AGCEEP and have problems and bugs to that version of AGCEEP. Any fundamental discussion should take place in the subforum dedicated to the area.


You let yourself lead to wrong conclusions by assuming that a province with "greek" culture would have only greek people. EU2 and FtG are limited in that they always can have only 1 culture in a province and only 1 religion in a province. That should be read as the *main* culture and religion, but certainly not the only one. The Ottomans had in 1410 moved their capital from Bursa (in Anatolia) to Edirne/Adrianopel which means that they were in full control at that time. The Plus Vltra mod shows that with an additional province. As AGCEEP uses the vanilla map we have left the ottoman capital in Bursa at the start and it is moved only to Constantinople after it is conquered. Historically they had moved it to Europe decades before. Geographically Edirne would be in the same ingameprovince as Byzanz.

Byzantium did not lose because of the Ottomans. They had already lost their empire to the arabians in Egypt, to the Seljuks in the battles of Manzikert and Myriokephalon and lost control of nowadays Greece to the latin crusaders, then the serbian empire and of anything north of Byzanz to the 2nd bulgarian empire and struggled each time more to take alway less than they lost back. The population at that time would be mixed at best with parts being greek, serbian, bulgarian, albanian and even nomadic turks moving in with the osmanic troops. That is represented by an event that changes several greek provinces to turkish once the osmans take Constantinople.

What cores represent is best described in this thread:
EU2 only had one type of core which in FtG is the national core. The claimcore still allows BYZ to declare war without penalty and to take a province in a peacedeal without Badboy cost just as with a national core - the difference is only that then they will suffer 30 years of declining local resistance which is no wonder as people from many different places had moved in since they last lost control.

If you want BYZ to have more cores and be able to gain even more then play the AGCEEP Byzantium fantasy scenario because any return of BYZ to power is fantasy.


Well population in FtG (and already in EU2) never was single people. 10000 population does not equal 10.000 man. Just consider it: How would they be able to muster that many soldiers from 10.000 men? Even rabbits could not breed that fast. No, "population" rather is a number that is arbitrary and something like "taxpayers", "families" or "hearths". Other provinces have similar low population numbers for the same reason, e.g. else many Ming provinces would exceed 1.000.000 single people. The old EU2 FAQ about population is still informative:
Alright, no more Russia in this thread.
But as a Russian with a historical degree I should say that taking the Tatar culture away from the Grand Principality of Moscow in the XVth century is a nonsense. It will be much more sense if you take away the Ugric culture from Novgorod, which only exploited its northern lands.
It looks like you do not understand how huge already was the cultural impact of the Great Steppe on the Russian principalities at that time. It is not the XIIth century, the Tatar-Mongols have been overlords of the Russian principalities for about two centuries. And there were, of course, more early extensive and important relations with the Steppe: with the Cumans, the Pechenegs, minor Turkic tribes.
I see in this a question not about possibility of early Russian expansion into the Tatar states, because Moscow has no claims and has christian religion — there will be resistance. And the general political situation protects against this.

I did not say a word about saving Byzantium. And if I say a little, the saving Byzantium is no more fantastic than, for example, the creation of the Russian Kingdom from the Novgorod Republic. I just said about unhistorical weak Byzantium in 1419. Too nerfed.
In 1419 Basileia Romaion still held Salonica. Salonica is registered in the FTG as the main city of the province, I am no saying that we should give province around it to BYZ, but do not you think that BYZ should have a national core on it?
Not much time has passed since the loss of all these provinces.
Even in 1419 Constantinopolis is still one of the largest cities in Europe. Even if 10000 population does not mean 10000 people, ingame Constantinopolis should have more population. We can make quick use of this dubious resource: Wikipedia. Paris IRL — 280000 (the biggest number I have ever seen for Paris in 1400), Constantinopolis — 100000. Ingame Paris — 60000. Then Constantinopolis should have 21430.
(Even if we imagine that 10000 population = 10000 people there will be no one or only one millionaire province in China 1419 — it is a population of the city, not a population of the whole province with all its settlements).

I have a question. What are you doing by the lines you added to the AGCEEP\Scenarios\1419\Inc\1419_GlobalData.inc?
" defender = { PAP = catholic }
defender = { BYZ = orthodox }
defender = { MAM = sunni }
defender = { DAN = protestant }
defender = { IRA = shiite }
defender = { CHI = confucianism }
defender = { VIJ = hinduism }"
Protestantism is not activated in 1419. Does this works like guarantees with the late dates? Does Denmark automatically become the defender of the faith later?
Are you that sure that Vijayanagar, Irak and Mamluks deserves the title of the defender of the faith?
 
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ConjurerDragon

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Alright, no more Russia in this thread.
But as a Russian with a historical degree I should say that taking the Tatar culture away from the Grand Principality of Moscow in the XVth century is a nonsense. It will be much more sense if you take away the Ugric culture from Novgorod, which only exploited its northern lands.
It looks like you do not understand how huge already was the cultural impact of the Great Steppe on the Russian principalities at that time. It is not the XIIth century, the Tatar-Mongols have been overlords of the Russian principalities for about two centuries. And there were, of course, more early extensive and important relations with the Steppe: with the Cumans, the Pechenegs, minor Turkic tribes.
I see in this a question not about possibility of early Russian expansion into the Tatar states, because Moscow has no claims and has christian religion — there will be resistance. And the general political situation protects against this.
You misunderstand the politicial rulership and cultures ingame.
A state that does not rule provinces of a certain culture should normally not have that culture as state culture. That is because having a culture enables that state to better rule those provinces (30% more taxes, more manpower, less revoltrisk). Usually small states on a border / fringe between cultures receive them (e.g. Pommern with german and polish). A state CAN rule provinces of a culture without having it - it just becomes a matter if it is worthwhile.
Being ruled indirectly, as in being a vassal of another state, does not infer the culture of the overlord to the vassal.
So being ruled by mongols as their vassal does not mean that a state gains mongol as state culture. That there were cultural influences on the vassals, e. g. words in their language means that "russian" was influenced and changed a little bit, but not that the russian principalities all should equally be russian and mongol/tatar.
If you want to discuss cultures generally and why a state should have them, this thread would be fitting:
If only cultures of the russian principalities then the thread about russia I mentioned in my earlier post.

I did not say a word about saving Byzantium.
That would be the only reason to change anything. Because if one assumes that Byzantium was a doomed state from 1419 with no historical chance to survive (which is something very different than player intervention) then everything additional is either wasted or leads them to behave different than historical. e.g. Cyprus was once byzantine and is greek - but giving BYZ a core on Cyprus means that it will detoriate relations with Cyprus and might lead to an unhistorical and unwanted war.

And if I say a little, the saving Byzantium is no more fantastic than, for example, the creation of the Russian Kingdom from the Novgorod Republic. I just said about unhistorical weak Byzantium in 1419. Too nerfed.
In 1419 Basileia Romaion still held Salonica. Salonica is registered in the FTG as the main city of the province, I am no saying that we should give province around it to BYZ, but do not you think that BYZ should have a national core on it?
No. Thessaloniki is only a small part of the province of Makedonia. BYZ lost control of the province long before the Ottomans came, already in 1355 they controlled only a small area around the city
And in 1387 the ottomans actually already laid siege to and conquered Thessaloniki and gave it back only when BYZ became their vassal.
That is already straining having a claimcore and IMO would almost only justify a casusbellicore. See the thread about cores for the differences that I mentioned in my earlier post.

Not much time has passed since the loss of all these provinces.
Even in 1419 Constantinopolis is still one of the largest cities in Europe. Even if 10000 population does not mean 10000 people, ingame Constantinopolis should have more population. We can make quick use of this dubious resource: Wikipedia. Paris IRL — 280000 (the biggest number I have ever seen for Paris in 1400), Constantinopolis — 100000. Ingame Paris — 60000. Then Constantinopolis should have 21430.
(Even if we imagine that 10000 population = 10000 people there will be no one or only one millionaire province in China 1419 — it is a population of the city, not a population of the whole province with all its settlements).
And in the Byzantium thread for AGCEEP that concern was already discussed. Please read the old posts in the regional thread:
 

ConjurerDragon

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There is no geography.csv file in the Localisation folder of the AGCEEP
Most mods do not copy the entire game. Only those files that are changed from the vanilla game need to be in the mod download. Everything unchanged can be omitted as the game then automatically uses the missing file from the vanilla game. So a file missing in a mod that exists in the vanilla game is not always a bug, but it might here.

, but the original FTG (I use the last version of the FTG)
Please be more specific. You mean the FtG 1.3 beta from Decembre 2017?

geography.csv file does not fit. Thus, there are many incorrect area and region names in the AGCEEP game — "REG_****".
Could you give specific examples where the area and region names are wrong?

Did I do something wrong when installing the AGCEEP?
Probably not. AGCEEP is still not fully transformed from working with FtG 1.2 to working with all the changes in FtG 1.3. It took already quite a while to bugfix the display errors for the changed religion names and there are certainly still other bugs not yet noticed.
 

ConjurerDragon

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Sorry for the wrong alarm. I have just found what my local problem is. Nevermind. I shall delete these two posts.
If you had a problem and found the reason to solve it, please always give a short summary what you did wrong and how you could correct it. The next person who makes the same mistake might read your post and learn from it.
 

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So how to install it? should i install in the previous AGCEEP file and overwrite it? Sorry for asking, im new at these things
As mentioned in the first post you start by making sure that you run FtG 1.3 (the last beta patch) and not the official 1.2 patch.
If your game is still version 1.2 then first download the update to 1.3 from the link in my first post.
 

Perkaza

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May 8, 2022
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IMG_20220521_124043.jpg

Well Uh... "RELIGION_heretic" Text sliders is a bug or what?
 
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View attachment 841718
Well Uh... "RELIGION_heretic" Text sliders is a bug or what?
Mmm. Yes, I have that in my game, too. Can be quickly checked by anyone starting a game as a catholic in the 1520 scenario.

In
\For the Glory\Mods\AGCEEP\Db\Religions
the file
global_flags.txt
has this after the Edict of Tolerance:

Code:
tolerance = {
        catholic = {
            catholic = { display = yes name = catholic default = 10 }
            protestant = { display = yes name = heretic default = -10 }
            hussite = { display = no value = protestant }
            orthodox = { display = no }
            miaphysite = { display = no }
            sunni = { display = yes name = muslim default = 0 }
            eastern_sunni = { display = no value = sunni }
            shiite = { display = no value = sunni }
            eastern_shiite = { display = no value = sunni }
            buddhism = { display = no }
            confucianism = { display = no }
            hinduism = { display = no }
            shinto = { display = no }
            sikh = { display = no }
            pagan = { display = no }
        }

which means that the 2nd tolerance slider actually should be named "Heretic", yet not "Religion_heretic" to encompass the protestants and hussites.

I guess that AGCEEP lacks a string in the english localisation file, still from the huge changes of FtG 1.2 to FtG 1.3
I´ll try to add
RELIGION_HERETIC;Heretic;x
from FtG religions.csv to AGCEEP religions.csv

Edit: Seems to work in my game. Updated zip file in first post.
 
Last edited:

Perkaza

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May 8, 2022
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Mmm. Yes, I have that in my game, too. Can be quickly checked by anyone starting a game as a catholic in the 1520 scenario.

In
\For the Glory\Mods\AGCEEP\Db\Religions
the file
global_flags.txt
has this after the Edict of Tolerance:

Code:
tolerance = {
        catholic = {
            catholic = { display = yes name = catholic default = 10 }
            protestant = { display = yes name = heretic default = -10 }
            hussite = { display = no value = protestant }
            orthodox = { display = no }
            miaphysite = { display = no }
            sunni = { display = yes name = muslim default = 0 }
            eastern_sunni = { display = no value = sunni }
            shiite = { display = no value = sunni }
            eastern_shiite = { display = no value = sunni }
            buddhism = { display = no }
            confucianism = { display = no }
            hinduism = { display = no }
            shinto = { display = no }
            sikh = { display = no }
            pagan = { display = no }
        }

which means that the 2nd tolerance slider actually should be named "Heretic", yet not "Religion_heretic" to encompass the protestants and hussites.

I guess that AGCEEP lacks a string in the english localisation file, still from the huge changes of FtG 1.2 to FtG 1.3
I´ll try to add
RELIGION_HERETIC;Heretic;x
from FtG religions.csv to AGCEEP religions.csv

Edit: Seems to work in my game. Updated zip file in first post.
oh god, i dont understand these things, im new at these forums, probably gonna try learning more, thank you for replying
 

ConjurerDragon

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oh god, i dont understand these things, im new at these forums, probably gonna try learning more, thank you for replying
No problem.
In a simpler way my answer could have been:
"You right. Is bug. Now hopefully fixed." :cool:
 
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