AGC: Spain II
This thread deals with Spain and the countries that composed it, that is Castilla, Aragon, Navarra and Granada.
I will edit this first post whenever any new proposal is added, modified, in test process, or submitted. Unless stated clearly that one matter is closed, everything is open to discussion.
I still have to think of a good tag mode (colours, indications... whatever) that I will feel comfortable with, indicating the progress of the topics.
It is my intent in this thread, specially event-wise, to define turning points in the history of Spain and the kingdoms that formed Spain. I know there were a lot of events in Spanish history, but I would like only the ones that enhance historical sense in a great measure, and turning points of inner and outer policy.
(For example, I was tempted to introduce the problems with 'La Mesta', the organization of the wool exports, that made Castillian trade policy so mercantilist... but I feel this can be already reflected by the possible decissions in IP adjustment, with the standard stability hits... Same with Castillian courts, most of the revolts... etc)
This is AGC: Spain II. After the 1.06 patch several things have changed regarding Spain, and several things concerning points discussed here. After noticing in AGC: Spain I that perhaps my objective was a bit too ambitious for the moment, I will initially restrict my focus only to Castille/Spain, then to the other kingdoms that may form Spain.
Last update of this list: March 17th 2003
History:
- Adding proposal for the review of events post Spanish Succession war 17-III-2003
- Scripting for the line of events proposal for the Civil war of Castille 14-III-2003
- New AGC: Spain (second part ). Updated all the changes that the 1.06 patch has brought to the Spanish kingdoms. 13-III-2003
- Yet more changes in the Spanish Leaders files, after finding new threads in the Spanish boards. 30-XII-2002
- Creation of the Granada (E) Chapter.
- Alvaro de Luna and Civil war events for Castille (both the one for Juan II and the one for Enrique IV 31-XII-2002
- Added links to new leaders.spa and monarchs.cas files (in chapters A.2, and B.2)
- Added a new idea for a more flavoured aragon origined Spain in C.3 2-I-2003
- More changes to Monarchs.Cas
- Issues with the capitals of Castille and Spain (in B.1, A.3 and B.3)
- (Soon to come, still looking for some additional answers) Introduction of Navarra's events, leaders, etc...
- Issues with Pyrinees provinces and events about their culture&control (C.1 and A.3) 3-I-2003
- New Remark in the chapter B.1
- Starting the D) Navarre chapter (lots of thanks to twoflower!) 7-I-2003
The objective of this thread is to be a place of polite discussion for getting a more realistic performance of Spain in the Grand Campaign.
The fields of discussion for each country will be classified in x fields:
1) Terrain values (trade goods, production&trade values, population, cultures) and initial settings
2) Leaders & Monarchs
3) Events
4) Artificial Intelligence
Each country will have a separate chapter in the list:
A) Spain
B) Castille
C) Aragon
D) Navarra
E) Granada
So, for example, B.2 will detail any proposals about Castille's leaders&monarchs. I would thank any comment or reply to be preceded by the chapter(s) it will deal with, in the tittle of the post.
A) Spain
A.1 Terrain Values and Initial Settings
Spain is not an initial country, so, nothing can be discussed here. For Terrain values, refer to the corresponding B.1, C.1 and D.1 chapters.
A.2 Leaders & Monarchs
Since in AGC Spain does not form until Carlos I, everything seems completely correct.
The leaders went through a complete correction in 1.06. While I would still have upgraded them a bit more, I feel that the changes are enough. No further correction is needed, then, unless other posters would ask for it.
A.3 Events
This is the big open field that still remains to be done.
* The aragonese claims inherited by the Spanish crown:
- The claim on Navarra is already corrected.
- The claim on Rousillion is not. Spain should inherit directly with its formation a Claim on this aragonese province, and only rennounce to it after a new event in the late XVII century (peace of the pyrenees).
- The claims on Naples. If Naples is owned by Aragon, then Spain should gain shields on it. If Naples was vassal of Aragon then it should be vassal to Spain.
* Spanish army formation events. There should be a thread of events detailing the formation of the Tercios, and its disbanding. As now the MIL stat of the king would help to repressent this, I would restrict the events to these:
- Event: Formation of the Tercios. Would have as a trigger being Spain, having both Granada and Sicily provinces (italian experience and the end of the reconquista needed). Would raise the Quality and Offensive IP sliders. Startdate from 1520 to deathdate 1600.
- Event: Defeat of the Tercios. If around 1655 Spain has not triggered the 'Repatriation of the netherlands events', Spain and its Tercios should be considered defeated, and thus the Spanish army would go through a reconversion, and starting his quick descense to the hell of bad quality (and lose of offensive impulse). This event thus, should be asleep by the 'Repatriation of the Netherlands' or by the event of Spain NOT receiving Holland (since the main cause of the defeat of the Tercios was its incredible attrition in the netherlands).
* Capital moving: The initial capital of Spain should be Toledo (it has been moved there in the Viva España event, in Castille or Aragon) and then moved to Madrid by a new event during Felipe II "The building of El Escorial".
* Spanish Succession war in 1700-1714. As discussed in this thread, there should be more events regarding the historical (Bourbon) choice and its consequences about Gibraltar, and the alternate (Habsburg) fantasy choice and its consequences for Catalonia. This has been discussed in this thread so far. Still to be developed and tested.
Line so far could be
1) Bourbon Line
- Spain chooses the Bourbons
- Events are triggered in the other countries. If England chooses to fight, they should add as core the Gibraltar province.
- If England manages to get the Rock they can keep it and change its culture to anglosaxon (Historical) or give it back to Spain.
- Spain in turn has the chance to yield the control of Gibraltar to England or decide to keep on fighting for it.
- If Spain regains control of the Rock, they will turn it back to Iberic culture.
- If England loses (or has not ever had in first place) control of Gibraltar from 1770, they lose their window of opportunity and lose the reclamation on Gibraltar.
2) Habsburg line
- Spain chooses the Habsburgs.
- Events are triggered in the other countries. If France chooses to fight, they should add as core the Gerona&Catalonia provinces (by the way... I am very conscious that this should be considered 'fantasy' type, but it is not really known what the real implications of Carlos II choosing finally the Habsburg would have been...)
- If France manages to get any of Catalonia's provinces they can grant them independence (lose the core and get them as vassals), keep them or give them back to Spain.
- Spain will not have the option to renounce to them, as will gibraltar.
- If by 1770 France does not have any of this provinces, they lose the reclamation on them.
* The conquest of the Aztecs. The new way the 'A new reconquista event' is handled should define the way the aztecs were conquered. BUT, I would like to ask if a line of events with trigger AI=yes and war with Incas and Aztecs, removing all the fortifications but the one in the capital (cuzco and zacatecas). This is very very open to discussion.
* Father Bartolome de las Casas mission. This friar nearly convinced the Spanish kings Carlos I and Felipe II of giving the colonization effort a radical change, in regards of the native mistreatment. There should be an event depicting this, which would affect deeply Spanish colonization.
* Consequences of Spain going Habsburg: For example, if Spain's line remains Habsburg, the pragmatic santion should have its possible answers reverted (Pro-Habsburg as option A). Spain should review his events to make them be logical and it should be seen if it has to react to some austrian events.
A.4 Artificial Intelligence
I will leave this to MKJ personalities AI mod.
B) Castilla
B.1 Terrain Values and Initial Settings
* After some revision, the initial doubts I had were ressolved. Better to leave things as they are now.
B.2 Leaders & Monarchs
* Carlos I should NOT govern Castille from 1506 (I think he was 6 years old at that point). He should govern from 1516/17. The monarch from the early death of Felipe I to the start of the reign of Carlos I (that should probably be as Spain) should be Cardinal Cisneros. So the list of monarchs in this period should be:
September 1506 - June 1507: Cardinal Cisneros
July 1507 - September 1516: Ferdinand of Aragon (same stats as Ferran II in Aragon monarch file)
September 1516 - November 1517: Cardinal Cisneros
B.3 Events
* Alvaro de Luna should start being the 'valid' of the king (prime minister) from the same moment he appears as a leader. There should be no option in this. The civil war should hit Castille harder. Three revolts are not enough... the civil war lasted like 5 years... it was not a casual revolt. Even when a player could take profit of this, the revolts should be concentrated and localized. There should be an event for the judgement and execution of Alvaro de Luna. Historically, Juan II ceded to the pressures of the nobility to execute his favourite... but it could have been otherwise (CORRECTION: Not worth modelling this since Juan II died less than a year after Alvaro, and Enrique IV hated Alvaro, so he would not have kept with him).
So, line of events:
- Alvaro de Luna, 'An excellent minister' event type, with a +1 to centralism and +2 to all stats until Juan II dies, this is from 1423 (January 1st with some offset) to 1453. And yes, these are 360 months, but Juan II really took Castille to the renaissance, his efforts only destroyed by his feeble son Enrique IV (called 'the impotent', by the way)
- Civil war in Castille. It should be a lot harder.
If you choose to side with Alvaro de Luna: +5 to 10 RR in the provinces that the other side used as bases for 60 months and 2 inmediate revolts in these provinces.
If you choose to side with the sons and nephews of the king: -1 stab and you lose -2 to all the kings stats until 1453 (thus taking him back down to his normal stats). And you should lose the Alvaro de Luna leader (should be something like the Gilles de Rais trial).
* The succession war between Isabel and Juana (the sister and the daughter of Enrique IV). The problem with this is that if Isabel does not reach the throne, or marry Fernando of Aragon, the consequences are so far reaching that I would only qualify as an only one option civil war, in the lines of Alvaro de Luna's civil war. Juana should have been the queen, but the pro-Isabelline party labelled her as illigitimate (and Enrique passed to the story as 'El Impotente'... I think this needs no translation).
But the options, if it is desired should be...
- The succession war. Options would be Isabel (historical) and Juana (named 'La Beltraneja' by the followers of Isabel, as she was said to be the real daughter of the Queen and Beltrán, the royal steward... who sided with Isabel, by the way):
A) First Option Isabel, -100 relations with Portugal. Should give a 12 months of Portugal against Spain. Revolts in Leon, Galicia and Extremadura.
B) Second Option Juana ('la Beltraneja'). Sleeps 'marriage of Isabel' event. +50 relations with Portugal, and dinastic with Portugal. We enter the realm of fantasy here... it should sleep all the events regarding the formation of Spain... A whole line of events could be created for a possible union with Portugal... but Spain will not form.
- The marriage of Isabel (that would replace the iberic wedding). The candidates would be Aragon (Fernando), Portugal and France.
A) Fernando of Aragon, +50 relations with Aragon, dinastic with Aragon. -25 with France and Portugal plus the adjustments in the A) option of the iberic wedding.
B) Portuguese candidate, +50 relations with Portugal, -100 with Aragon, -25 with France. Dinastic with Portugal plus all the B) option of the iberic wedding.
C) French candidate, +50 relations with France, -150 with Aragon, -50 with Portugal. Dinastic with France plus all the B) option of the iberic wedding..
Options B and C would make Spain not to form and a new lines of monarch develop after Isabel. These options are extremely risky for AI, so these two events should be AI=No (only a human player could choose them). The AI would have a different version of the castillian succession war event (with only the first option) and the standard version of the iberic wedding (with an AI=yes trigger).
B.4 Artificial Intelligence
Leaving this for MKJ personalities mod.
-------------------------------------
I am leaving chapters C,D and E for now. You can revise the first AGC: Spain for the last ideas for Aragon, Navarra and Granada.
Ah, and expect event scripting very soon!
-------------------------------------
EVENT IDs reminder:
24500 - 24549: New Spanish events (Lucius Sulla)
24550 - 24599: Mesoamerican events (Lucius Sulla)
This thread deals with Spain and the countries that composed it, that is Castilla, Aragon, Navarra and Granada.
I will edit this first post whenever any new proposal is added, modified, in test process, or submitted. Unless stated clearly that one matter is closed, everything is open to discussion.
I still have to think of a good tag mode (colours, indications... whatever) that I will feel comfortable with, indicating the progress of the topics.
It is my intent in this thread, specially event-wise, to define turning points in the history of Spain and the kingdoms that formed Spain. I know there were a lot of events in Spanish history, but I would like only the ones that enhance historical sense in a great measure, and turning points of inner and outer policy.
(For example, I was tempted to introduce the problems with 'La Mesta', the organization of the wool exports, that made Castillian trade policy so mercantilist... but I feel this can be already reflected by the possible decissions in IP adjustment, with the standard stability hits... Same with Castillian courts, most of the revolts... etc)
This is AGC: Spain II. After the 1.06 patch several things have changed regarding Spain, and several things concerning points discussed here. After noticing in AGC: Spain I that perhaps my objective was a bit too ambitious for the moment, I will initially restrict my focus only to Castille/Spain, then to the other kingdoms that may form Spain.
Last update of this list: March 17th 2003
History:
- Adding proposal for the review of events post Spanish Succession war 17-III-2003
- Scripting for the line of events proposal for the Civil war of Castille 14-III-2003
- New AGC: Spain (second part ). Updated all the changes that the 1.06 patch has brought to the Spanish kingdoms. 13-III-2003
- Yet more changes in the Spanish Leaders files, after finding new threads in the Spanish boards. 30-XII-2002
- Creation of the Granada (E) Chapter.
- Alvaro de Luna and Civil war events for Castille (both the one for Juan II and the one for Enrique IV 31-XII-2002
- Added links to new leaders.spa and monarchs.cas files (in chapters A.2, and B.2)
- Added a new idea for a more flavoured aragon origined Spain in C.3 2-I-2003
- More changes to Monarchs.Cas
- Issues with the capitals of Castille and Spain (in B.1, A.3 and B.3)
- (Soon to come, still looking for some additional answers) Introduction of Navarra's events, leaders, etc...
- Issues with Pyrinees provinces and events about their culture&control (C.1 and A.3) 3-I-2003
- New Remark in the chapter B.1
- Starting the D) Navarre chapter (lots of thanks to twoflower!) 7-I-2003
The objective of this thread is to be a place of polite discussion for getting a more realistic performance of Spain in the Grand Campaign.
The fields of discussion for each country will be classified in x fields:
1) Terrain values (trade goods, production&trade values, population, cultures) and initial settings
2) Leaders & Monarchs
3) Events
4) Artificial Intelligence
Each country will have a separate chapter in the list:
A) Spain
B) Castille
C) Aragon
D) Navarra
E) Granada
So, for example, B.2 will detail any proposals about Castille's leaders&monarchs. I would thank any comment or reply to be preceded by the chapter(s) it will deal with, in the tittle of the post.
A) Spain
A.1 Terrain Values and Initial Settings
Spain is not an initial country, so, nothing can be discussed here. For Terrain values, refer to the corresponding B.1, C.1 and D.1 chapters.
A.2 Leaders & Monarchs
Since in AGC Spain does not form until Carlos I, everything seems completely correct.
The leaders went through a complete correction in 1.06. While I would still have upgraded them a bit more, I feel that the changes are enough. No further correction is needed, then, unless other posters would ask for it.
A.3 Events
This is the big open field that still remains to be done.
* The aragonese claims inherited by the Spanish crown:
- The claim on Navarra is already corrected.
- The claim on Rousillion is not. Spain should inherit directly with its formation a Claim on this aragonese province, and only rennounce to it after a new event in the late XVII century (peace of the pyrenees).
- The claims on Naples. If Naples is owned by Aragon, then Spain should gain shields on it. If Naples was vassal of Aragon then it should be vassal to Spain.
* Spanish army formation events. There should be a thread of events detailing the formation of the Tercios, and its disbanding. As now the MIL stat of the king would help to repressent this, I would restrict the events to these:
- Event: Formation of the Tercios. Would have as a trigger being Spain, having both Granada and Sicily provinces (italian experience and the end of the reconquista needed). Would raise the Quality and Offensive IP sliders. Startdate from 1520 to deathdate 1600.
- Event: Defeat of the Tercios. If around 1655 Spain has not triggered the 'Repatriation of the netherlands events', Spain and its Tercios should be considered defeated, and thus the Spanish army would go through a reconversion, and starting his quick descense to the hell of bad quality (and lose of offensive impulse). This event thus, should be asleep by the 'Repatriation of the Netherlands' or by the event of Spain NOT receiving Holland (since the main cause of the defeat of the Tercios was its incredible attrition in the netherlands).
* Capital moving: The initial capital of Spain should be Toledo (it has been moved there in the Viva España event, in Castille or Aragon) and then moved to Madrid by a new event during Felipe II "The building of El Escorial".
* Spanish Succession war in 1700-1714. As discussed in this thread, there should be more events regarding the historical (Bourbon) choice and its consequences about Gibraltar, and the alternate (Habsburg) fantasy choice and its consequences for Catalonia. This has been discussed in this thread so far. Still to be developed and tested.
Line so far could be
1) Bourbon Line
- Spain chooses the Bourbons
- Events are triggered in the other countries. If England chooses to fight, they should add as core the Gibraltar province.
- If England manages to get the Rock they can keep it and change its culture to anglosaxon (Historical) or give it back to Spain.
- Spain in turn has the chance to yield the control of Gibraltar to England or decide to keep on fighting for it.
- If Spain regains control of the Rock, they will turn it back to Iberic culture.
- If England loses (or has not ever had in first place) control of Gibraltar from 1770, they lose their window of opportunity and lose the reclamation on Gibraltar.
2) Habsburg line
- Spain chooses the Habsburgs.
- Events are triggered in the other countries. If France chooses to fight, they should add as core the Gerona&Catalonia provinces (by the way... I am very conscious that this should be considered 'fantasy' type, but it is not really known what the real implications of Carlos II choosing finally the Habsburg would have been...)
- If France manages to get any of Catalonia's provinces they can grant them independence (lose the core and get them as vassals), keep them or give them back to Spain.
- Spain will not have the option to renounce to them, as will gibraltar.
- If by 1770 France does not have any of this provinces, they lose the reclamation on them.
* The conquest of the Aztecs. The new way the 'A new reconquista event' is handled should define the way the aztecs were conquered. BUT, I would like to ask if a line of events with trigger AI=yes and war with Incas and Aztecs, removing all the fortifications but the one in the capital (cuzco and zacatecas). This is very very open to discussion.
* Father Bartolome de las Casas mission. This friar nearly convinced the Spanish kings Carlos I and Felipe II of giving the colonization effort a radical change, in regards of the native mistreatment. There should be an event depicting this, which would affect deeply Spanish colonization.
* Consequences of Spain going Habsburg: For example, if Spain's line remains Habsburg, the pragmatic santion should have its possible answers reverted (Pro-Habsburg as option A). Spain should review his events to make them be logical and it should be seen if it has to react to some austrian events.
A.4 Artificial Intelligence
I will leave this to MKJ personalities AI mod.
B) Castilla
B.1 Terrain Values and Initial Settings
* After some revision, the initial doubts I had were ressolved. Better to leave things as they are now.
B.2 Leaders & Monarchs
* Carlos I should NOT govern Castille from 1506 (I think he was 6 years old at that point). He should govern from 1516/17. The monarch from the early death of Felipe I to the start of the reign of Carlos I (that should probably be as Spain) should be Cardinal Cisneros. So the list of monarchs in this period should be:
September 1506 - June 1507: Cardinal Cisneros
July 1507 - September 1516: Ferdinand of Aragon (same stats as Ferran II in Aragon monarch file)
September 1516 - November 1517: Cardinal Cisneros
B.3 Events
* Alvaro de Luna should start being the 'valid' of the king (prime minister) from the same moment he appears as a leader. There should be no option in this. The civil war should hit Castille harder. Three revolts are not enough... the civil war lasted like 5 years... it was not a casual revolt. Even when a player could take profit of this, the revolts should be concentrated and localized. There should be an event for the judgement and execution of Alvaro de Luna. Historically, Juan II ceded to the pressures of the nobility to execute his favourite... but it could have been otherwise (CORRECTION: Not worth modelling this since Juan II died less than a year after Alvaro, and Enrique IV hated Alvaro, so he would not have kept with him).
So, line of events:
- Alvaro de Luna, 'An excellent minister' event type, with a +1 to centralism and +2 to all stats until Juan II dies, this is from 1423 (January 1st with some offset) to 1453. And yes, these are 360 months, but Juan II really took Castille to the renaissance, his efforts only destroyed by his feeble son Enrique IV (called 'the impotent', by the way)
- Civil war in Castille. It should be a lot harder.
If you choose to side with Alvaro de Luna: +5 to 10 RR in the provinces that the other side used as bases for 60 months and 2 inmediate revolts in these provinces.
If you choose to side with the sons and nephews of the king: -1 stab and you lose -2 to all the kings stats until 1453 (thus taking him back down to his normal stats). And you should lose the Alvaro de Luna leader (should be something like the Gilles de Rais trial).
* The succession war between Isabel and Juana (the sister and the daughter of Enrique IV). The problem with this is that if Isabel does not reach the throne, or marry Fernando of Aragon, the consequences are so far reaching that I would only qualify as an only one option civil war, in the lines of Alvaro de Luna's civil war. Juana should have been the queen, but the pro-Isabelline party labelled her as illigitimate (and Enrique passed to the story as 'El Impotente'... I think this needs no translation).
But the options, if it is desired should be...
- The succession war. Options would be Isabel (historical) and Juana (named 'La Beltraneja' by the followers of Isabel, as she was said to be the real daughter of the Queen and Beltrán, the royal steward... who sided with Isabel, by the way):
A) First Option Isabel, -100 relations with Portugal. Should give a 12 months of Portugal against Spain. Revolts in Leon, Galicia and Extremadura.
B) Second Option Juana ('la Beltraneja'). Sleeps 'marriage of Isabel' event. +50 relations with Portugal, and dinastic with Portugal. We enter the realm of fantasy here... it should sleep all the events regarding the formation of Spain... A whole line of events could be created for a possible union with Portugal... but Spain will not form.
- The marriage of Isabel (that would replace the iberic wedding). The candidates would be Aragon (Fernando), Portugal and France.
A) Fernando of Aragon, +50 relations with Aragon, dinastic with Aragon. -25 with France and Portugal plus the adjustments in the A) option of the iberic wedding.
B) Portuguese candidate, +50 relations with Portugal, -100 with Aragon, -25 with France. Dinastic with Portugal plus all the B) option of the iberic wedding.
C) French candidate, +50 relations with France, -150 with Aragon, -50 with Portugal. Dinastic with France plus all the B) option of the iberic wedding..
Options B and C would make Spain not to form and a new lines of monarch develop after Isabel. These options are extremely risky for AI, so these two events should be AI=No (only a human player could choose them). The AI would have a different version of the castillian succession war event (with only the first option) and the standard version of the iberic wedding (with an AI=yes trigger).
B.4 Artificial Intelligence
Leaving this for MKJ personalities mod.
-------------------------------------
I am leaving chapters C,D and E for now. You can revise the first AGC: Spain for the last ideas for Aragon, Navarra and Granada.
Ah, and expect event scripting very soon!
-------------------------------------
EVENT IDs reminder:
24500 - 24549: New Spanish events (Lucius Sulla)
24550 - 24599: Mesoamerican events (Lucius Sulla)
Last edited: