AGC+EEP What vassals are getting the boot?

[Hogar]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Why, exactly, should Croatia be independent? Granted, it had some autonomy, but it was in permanent personal union with Hungary and firmly under the control of the King both politically and militarily. I cannot think of any other EU2 country regarded part of the crown lands (for most of the time), never bearing any intention to break with its suzerain.

Why would they? Croatians were quite happy with the arangement they had with the Hungary. It was a choice to stay in the Union!

The case for independent Croatia is much weaker or not better than for several other territories with a certain degree of autonomy, like e.g. Transylvania, Morea, Silesia, Moravia, Corsica, Sicily, Sardinia, Valencia or Catalonia. Keep in mind that in EU2 Croatia hardly ever behaves historically (i.e. stays quiet) and cancels the vassalization to Hungary much too often.

Croatia was historically quiet just like it is in the game.
Use events to keep them in the union. Corronation of the king seems a good time to remaind Croatians who's a real king...

Regarding only Hungary, why do we have independent Croatia, but not independent Transylvania, independent Cilli holdings, independent Garai holdings etc?
Tell me which other nation in EU2 has as few justification to be independent as Croatia.

Hungarian king was Croatian and it seems logical that Croatia had a common foreing policies with Hungary. Most of the other state policies were left to the governor (ban) and parlament to deal with... Doubt any of the other had anything similar (Transilvania still makes very good candidate to be in the game, providing that events are written to keep them in line...)

EDIT: Croatia could be independent during the time when it was owned by the Cillis and they refused the Diet and Hunyadi any control over it (i.e. between 1440 and 1457).

Quite dissagree.... but I don't want to get involved in this. Cillis played important part in the history of the region for 50 years and then they died out. Not good enough to give them a statehood, or is it?

 

[Twoflower]

I was asking for arguments why they should be independent, not reasons why they didn't behave like an independent state. For what exact reasons should Croatia act as an independent state, with all the weird implications this will have for the AI (which you won't be able to deal with just by events), when:
- it had no own foreign policy
- it neither made any attempts nor had the desire to seize independence
- it in fact was one of the most loyal and most important Hungarian territories during the 15th and 16th century
- actually the Croatian territories within the Hungarian lands were no united body, but divided into the two "Kingdoms" of Croatia and Slavonia
- it is easy to let it remain a playable county by implementing an "independent Croatia" semi-fantasy option

And about the Cilli I was suggesting to make Croatia - the Cillis were rulers of Croatia and / or Slavonia for a time - independent during that period as representation of the Cilli.

 

[Hogar]

independend or not...

What Twoflower says makes lot of sense... But my point is that countries in the personal union had common foreign policies. When Mattias Corvin became king of Poland, Bohemia they all three countries had a common foregin policies. The difficulty is how to represent this in the game. After all, there was no national policies in the eastern Europe at the time but only dinastic policies.
Wouldn't it make more sense to allow minor to exist and force it with the events to play along the 'big brother' then to leave it as revolter. Wouldn't Croatia as revolter agianst Hungary be a paradox?
I say keep Croatia in the game and use events of kings corronation to ally Croatia and Hungary. Vassalisation is also an option if that will keep Croatia and Hungary at peace. In that respect if Hungary goes to war, Croatia will follow and will behave historically.
Events are not the problem, I'll create them.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Re: independend or not...

Originally posted by Hogar

Wouldn't it make more sense to allow minor to exist and force it with the events to play along the 'big brother' then to leave it as revolter. Wouldn't Croatia as revolter agianst Hungary be a paradox?
I say keep Croatia in the game and use events of kings corronation to ally Croatia and Hungary. Vassalisation is also an option if that will keep Croatia and Hungary at peace. In that respect if Hungary goes to war, Croatia will follow and will behave historically.
Events are not the problem, I'll create them.

But still Croatia will get war declared upon them and declare their own wars, most likely the alliance will break up in one of those wars. I think it is almost impossible to get the kind of croatia we have. But I promise to be happily surprised when if I see good results from your tests.

 

[Hogar]

Events will be used to keep Germany and Italy in place and I just thought we should try this with Croatia as well. I actually find Croatia very quite and only thing it is doing ahistorically is the breaking off vassal ties with Hungary. These events would fix this.
I think it is a very bad idea to have Croatia as a revolver because it will often turn against the Hungary and we'll achieve exactly the opposite of what are we aiming for.
Do you think that two (three) province Bosnia will behave historically? Giving Croatia, Serbia and Transilvania to Hungary will probably turn out to be too much for Ottomans anyway. Do we have any test results with the new layout?

 

[Twoflower]

You seem to get me wrong. I don't oppose independent Croatia just because it doesn't work, but also because it is so blatantly unrealistic and inconsistent. Let me ask again, why have independent Croatia and not independent Catalonia or Valencia who both had separate institutions, laws etc and rebelled several times against the King of Aragon? Why not independent Wales or Moravia? Why not independent Aragon and Burgundy after 1516? Why not independent Hapsburg Hungary, Bohemia and Galicia?
All these are examples (and there are several more) for countries in personal unions with other countries that were at least as much or perhaps even more autonomous and some of them certainly more independent-minded than Croatia and are nevertheless represented as owned by their suzerain. Would it be fair and logical to make an exception for Croatia?
The only personal unions that are and should be represented as vassalages are those that lasted for a short time and maintained quite loose ties. Neither of the two is true for Croatia that was in personal union with Hungary for 800 years and hardly ever during the EU2 period showed signs of separatism.
In addition to that, it would be plain wrong to give an independent Croatia both Krain and Croatia (Croatia and Slavonia were two different, separate Kingdoms that often had different bans), quite absurd to let Hungary keep one of the two provinces as representation of Slavonia (since the usage of double standards would be even more obvious then) and unthinkable to have both as independent countries.

 

[Hogar]

Point taken...

 

[berhaven]

my penny

Well, I definitely agree on not "wasting" tags for "close to useless" vassalls, specially since I believe We could somehow implement a more sophisticated process for independence granting.

I know someone could think there is little historic in here, but it could certainly improve very much playability for the later part of the game, when good players have extended their domains far beyond history.

What I'm thinking about is to be able to create somekind of national-vassalls to get rid of enourmous costs (specially in terms of stability) form owning large multi-cultural empires.

An egemonic empire model (i.e. keep your core and culture-related provinces granting vassalization to homogenous culture states) could be a very wise strategy, and I find frustrating not being able to implement it.

Imagine to play England, and win the HYW: why shouldn't you be able to leave mainland Europe and focus in colonial expansion (which is actually more "historical" than becoming a land power in Europe) creating strong allies that fight the revenge of France? In EEP you have to deal with the funny tiny french vassals or maybe you have to wait for the french catholics or french huguenots.

Similarly creating a "rumanian" and/or a "russian" strong vassals would be a useful move for an over extended Poland, to avoid remain to much a laggard in tech developement.