Blaster

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Dec 12, 2007
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"Les Bulgares sont venus dans la Dobrodja depuis une vingtaine d'années, abandonnant des terres ingrates pour celles bien plus fertiles qu'ils ont trouvée dans ce pays" in Jonesco, J. (1850). Excursion agricole dans la plaine de la Dobrodja. Constantinopole: Imprimerie du Journal de Constantinopole.

First Turks settled in Dobrogea in 1264 A.D. in Babadag. From 1419 until 1877, Dobrogea was part of the Ottoman Empire.
it cant be slavonic... during that time dobrudja had to struggle the incoming turkish populations (during the oe rule).. saying dobrudja was slavonic is just like saying that Calais was english... at least through a romanian's eyes.
 
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Blaster

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Dec 12, 2007
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Which culture in 1419 then and, if needed, specific province event to be written for a culture switch or existing event to be amended?

Just make dobrudja start with romanian culture and change goods to fish. (only nowadays we can speak of a truly bulgarian ethnic majority, and that is only in southern dobrudja).
 

Nizzil

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I would be extremely skeptical about making Dobruja have Romanian culture. The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism. In the 19th century, all foreign observers found the region to be predominantly Bulgarian - it was only when Romania had the prospect of annexing the Northern half of it that they suddenly "realized" that the Bulgarians had not been there for long. During the Balkan Wars, Romania's government even stirred up fears that Bulgaria would try to retake the Northern part because of their historical claims to it. It was only through ethnic cleansing that the Romanian population attained a definite majority. For these reasons, before such a change is made, more research needs to be done on the demographics of Northern Dobruja in the 15th century.
 
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Blaster

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Dec 12, 2007
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I would be extremely skeptical about making Dobruja have Romanian culture. The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism. In the 19th century, all foreign observers found the region to be predominantly Bulgarian - it was only when Romania had the prospect of annexing the Northern half of it that they suddenly "realized" that the Bulgarians had not been there for long. During the Balkan Wars, Romania's government even stirred up fears that Bulgaria would try to retake the Northern part because of their historical claims to it. It was only through ethnic cleansing that the Romanian population attained a definite majority. For these reasons, before such a change is made, more research needs to be done on the demographics of Northern Dobruja in the 15th century.

Nice poetry, but still there is no proof that in all romania's history there was a ethnic cleansing. Think that there was a time that even Oltenia was part of a bulgarian empire but that still doesn't make it slavonic, remember the OE annexed Dobrudja only in 1419-1420 (from Michael The Brave - Wallachia). The southern part you are talking about is actualy only a quarter of all Dobrudja (and that is the cadrilater, which is actualy in eu2 vanilla map geographicaly located in rumelia if you look "closer").
PS: if i would've gone nationalistic i would chat all night about transylvania and hungary, not about this.

(sorry for my bad english)
 

Tunch Khan

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I believe there was a Dobrudja Beydom established by Seljuk Turks long before the Ottoman arrival. Couldn't they have Turkish culture? I believe they have been converted to Orthodox Church later on but preserved their Turkish language.

Cumans came in Dobruja in 1094 and maintained an important role until the advent of the Ottoman Empire.[55] In 1187 the Byzantines lost what is now Dobruja to the resorted Bulgarian Empire.[56] In 1241, the first Tatar groups, under Kadan, invaded Dobruja starting a century long history of turmoil in the region.[57] In 1263–1264, Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologus gave permission to Sultan Kaykaus II to settle in the area with a group of Seljuk Turks from Anatolia.[58] A missionary Turkish mystic, Sarı Saltuk, was the spiritual leader of this group;[59] his tomb in Babadag (which was named after him)[60] is still a place of pilgrimage for the Muslims. That happened during the campaign of Michael Glava Tarhaniotes against Bulgaria.[61] A part of these Turks returned to Anatolia in 1307, while those who remained became Christianised and adopted the name Gagauz.
 

Nizzil

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I don't see why it matters when the Ottomans annexed Dobruja. The Bulgarian population's presence in the regions predates that event by centuries. As for the ethnic cleansing I spoke of, that occurred in the late 19th and early 20th century... before which time most foreign ethnographers noted a Bulgarian majority in Southern Dobruja and a Bulgarian plurality in the North. I do not know much about Dobruja before the 19th century - there may very well have been a Romanian majority - but if we wish to be historically accurate, we can't take the claims of modern nationalism as a basis.
 
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unmerged(15247)

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I don't see why it matters when the Ottomans annexed Dobruja. The Bulgarian population's presence in the regions predates that event by centuries. As for the ethnic cleansing I spoke of, that occurred in the late 19th and early 20th century... before which time most foreign ethnographers noted a Bulgarian majority in Southern Dobruja and a Bulgarian plurality in the North. I do not know much about Dobruja before the 19th century - there may very well have been a Romanian majority - but if we wish to be historically accurate, we can't take the claims of modern nationalism as a basis.

the point remains that the GOODS and the TERRAIN for this province are absolutelly wrong. the culture thing can be argued all around but the fact is that this "provinces" during eu2 has had a LOT of minorities including GREEKS especially the town.

if there could be an event scripted to become a 4 way culture depending who gets to own it( svalonic-turkish-romanian-GREEK) would be very nice and appropriate as to reflect the regions amalgamation of culture...

NOW i understand that many claim that the province includes parts of todays bulgaria; not sure where this myth came from but just by LOOKING at it one can see that it has no parts of rumelia. the main inaccurate fact is that the DELTA of river DANUBE is nowhere to be found on the map...after all this particular delta would be the third biggest in europe after the nile the dutch ones...

the only thing it has right so far is its base tax.
so MARSH terrain and FISH goods would be more appropriate , i think preatty much everyone would agree with that.
 

Toio

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according to a few different books, one being Eastern Europe by Richard c Frucht
pages 743 to 751

The Dobruja region was

1270 - turkish Catholic

1380 - Bulgar/slavonic Catholic/Orthodox
.................................

our game period


1419 - Slavonic Orthodox

1520 - Turkish Muslim

.....................

not in our game period

1878 - Slavonic Orthodox

1923 - Romanian Catholic/orthodox

In 1912 or there about's at the time of the great balkan migration resettlement, the Greek Government sent 150,000 romanians from greece to romania, the romanian government placed them all in Dobruja
 

unmerged(40707)

Just call me Yoda in private!
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the only thing it has right so far is its base tax.
so MARSH terrain and FISH goods would be more appropriate , i think preatty much everyone would agree with that.
It seems reasonable.

Confirmation for wine in Wallachia?
 

unmerged(15247)

immortal technique
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It seems reasonable.

Confirmation for wine in Wallachia?

while wine would certanlly be more appropriate in walachia then in dobruja , i still feel at unese with that. the reasoning beeing that grain remains the best choice as to reflect the province's main source of income as much as walachia's own economic policies( walachia was always more agrarian then anything else).


off topic,would be so nice if there could be alteration in the eu2 code and beeing able to switch provincial goods as to reflect changes in predominant outputs at specific historic times, etc.

I would be extremely skeptical about making Dobruja have Romanian culture. The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism. In the 19th century, all foreign observers found the region to be predominantly Bulgarian - it was only when Romania had the prospect of annexing the Northern half of it that they suddenly "realized" that the Bulgarians had not been there for long. During the Balkan Wars, Romania's government even stirred up fears that Bulgaria would try to retake the Northern part because of their historical claims to it. It was only through ethnic cleansing that the Romanian population attained a definite majority. For these reasons, before such a change is made, more research needs to be done on the demographics of Northern Dobruja in the 15th century.

i am a bit offended by this comment especially "The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism." i am not sure how that is relevant to my initial argument... all i am saying is that there should be an event wich grants the the culture of the country owning them to REFLECT its own debated status ( and thus confirming and reflecting the historical fact that this province contained at least 4 minorities with neither of them beeing a stand alone MAJORITY at any given historic time during the PRESENT eu2 frame).

also please keep in mind that this region was SPARSELLY populated to start with, and almost no rural areas to speak off. beeing able to switch culture here would also reflect just that.
 
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Toio

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the name Dobruja means "good pastures"

it was sheep area..............my opinion, but do what you like for game reasons
 

unmerged(40707)

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while wine would certanlly be more appropriate in walachia then in dobruja , i still feel at unese with that. the reasoning beeing that grain remains the best choice as to reflect the province's main source of income as much as walachia's own economic policies( walachia was always more agrarian then anything else).
And we have an event for the introduction of Maize in the province.

off topic,would be so nice if there could be alteration in the eu2 code and beeing able to switch provincial goods as to reflect changes in predominant outputs at specific historic times, etc.
Yes, we miss such command.
 

unmerged(40707)

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all i am saying is that there should be an event wich grants the the culture of the country owning them to REFLECT its own debated status ( and thus confirming and reflecting the historical fact that this province contained at least 4 minorities with neither of them beeing a stand alone MAJORITY at any given historic time during the PRESENT eu2 frame).
We can model this. Propose a sketch for such events.

The historical one being Turkish dominance, right?
 

unmerged(15247)

immortal technique
Mar 3, 2003
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for turkey:

event = {
id = *****
trigger = {
owned = { province = 320 data = -1 } #dobrudja
control = { province = 320 data = -1 }
year = # to be discussed
}
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "EVENTNAME*****" # further settlements in this region
desc = "EVENTHIST*****"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = **** }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = **** }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #turkish are predominant
command = { type = population which = 320 value = 1000 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provinceculture which = 320 value = turkish }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #establish an even stronger presence
command = { type = cash value = -100 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 320 value = 1 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 320 value = 1 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 320 value = sunni }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 320 value = turkish }
}
action_c = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #this region is of no interest to us
command = { type = population which = 320 value = -1000 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provincereligion which = 320 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 320 value = romanian } #if bugaria does not exist
}
}


for romania; it should become available during the second vassalship of walachia, if walachia chooses to become an ottoman vassal
maybe an extra event for TURK to cede the province to walachia in exchange for vassalship status? as SECOND option "b" of course.

event = {
id = *****
trigger = {
owned = { province = 320 data = -1 } #dobrudja
control = { province = 320 data = -1 }
year = # to be discussed
}
}
random = no
country = WAL
name = "EVENTNAME*****" # the claim on the danube's delta
desc = "EVENTHIST*****"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = **** }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = **** }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #start to settle the area
command = { type = cash value = -100 }
command = { type = addcore which = 219 }
command = { type = population which = 322 value = -1000 } #wallachia
command = { type = provincetax which = 322 value = -1 } #wallachia
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 322 value = -1 } #wallachia
command = { type = population which = 320 value = 3000 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provincetax which = 320 value = 1 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 320 value = 1 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provincereligion which = 320 value = orthodox }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 320 value = romanian }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #allow turkish to remain predominant for now
command = { type = addcore which = 219 }
command = { type = population which = 320 value = 1000 } #dobrudja
command = { type = provinceculture which = 320 value = turkish } #just in case
}
action_c = {
name = "ACTIONNAME*****" #this region presents no interest to us
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 320 } #dobrudja
}
}
 
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