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Toio said:
your first site has many errors , as an example it indicates that the ottomans ruled cyprus from 1489 with a certain flag, when history tells us that cyprus was ruled by Venice from 1489 to 1573
Important thing in the first link is reference to a CoA available on this page. I don't see any error there, maybe 1570 instead of 1573, only.
 

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YodaMaster said:
Important thing in the first link is reference to a CoA available on this page. I don't see any error there, maybe 1570 instead of 1573, only.

i meant that the article has no substance as it is in gross error, it mentioned that Venice never owned Cyprus, it basically said that the ottoman ruled cyprus from 1489.

The true date when ottoman took ownership of cyprus was in 1573 when the treaty of peace was signed with Venice and not when the ottoman conquered the island in 1571.

As per COA, your link ends in 1432. besides how can we accept a titular title for Lasignan for jerusalem and antioch, when they never held these lands from 1291 and 1398 respectively. The titular , which means A titular ruler, or titular head, is a person in an official position of leadership who possesses few, if any, actual powers.
And is also a pretender to the jersulem throne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender

These claims where only based on a relative who ONCE owned these lands.
 

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I understand but don't we currently represent a dynasty beginning with Jean II in 1374 until 1489?

It is a fact a revolting Cyprus could have the red lion on white background only.
 

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I see no evidence that Lusignan Kings of Cyprus stopped using the quartered CoA after Jacques I. You will see in this wikipedia artice: http://www.answers.com/topic/james-iii-of-cyprus that even Jacques III still held the title of the King of Jerusalem.

I don't think we should choose the CoA based on whether we think the country deserved to use it or not, but based on which CoA they did historically use.
 

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YodaMaster said:
I understand but don't we currently represent a dynasty beginning with Jean II in 1374 until 1489?

It is a fact a revolting Cyprus could have the red lion on white background only.

Red and silver as there is no white in heraldic colours., baiscally what the wiki link has for the period.
 

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Toio said:
Red and silver as there is no white in heraldic colours., baiscally what the wiki link has for the period.
Yes, "silver", but I still don't see why we shouldn't take the "Lusignan" CoA as dynastical one at start in 1419.
 

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Lord Grave said:
I see no evidence that Lusignan Kings of Cyprus stopped using the quartered CoA after Jacques I. You will see in this wikipedia artice: http://www.answers.com/topic/james-iii-of-cyprus that even Jacques III still held the title of the King of Jerusalem.

As you link states, titular title for Jerusalem, basically his personnel claim (because ONCE is ancestor was its King ) and not supported by anyone else. For in this period in question there was a dozen kings around Europe that claimed the title for Jerusalem.

I don't think we should choose the CoA based on whether we think the country deserved to use it or not, but based on which CoA they did historically use.

There are even antiques in the Louvre which shows the COA of the cyprian Lusignan family which is only a rampant lion

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/de..._id=9852723696500831&baseIndex=10&bmLocale=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Claimant_Kings_of_Jerusalem

besides, the only thing i found apart from the lourve article is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojans/3030433652/

it seems that the lion from this COA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia
was placed over the blue and silver striped COA of the lusignan
to represent cyprus and antioch holdings

what to do?
 

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Toio said:
what to do?
I propose to have the red lion only for revolter and keep current one as dynastical "flavour" at start in 1419. There is still a problem if Cyprus disappears and revolts before 1489 but I think it is affordable.

Everything you mentioned as links always say what is mentioned in the link I provided:
First quarter: Jerusalem
Second: Lusignan
Third: Armenia
Fourth: Cyprus
 

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Like I already said, we should use CoA that were used, regardless of whether the royal and noble families had the right to use them. Besides, CoA reflects past achievements and claims, not only the present situation. Check the Germany and Austria thread where we conclude that CoA with combined symbols of Bavaria and the Palatinate was used by Duchy of Bavaria most of the time.

If the game covered a time frame during which the CoA used by the Kingdom of Cyprus changed, then it would be ok to use the universal lion rampant gules on field of argent because it generally represents Cyprus. However, all kings of Cyprus in EU2 time frame used the quartered CoA so there is no reason to use anything else.
 

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Only difference here is after 1489 and Lusignan are not rulers anymore (and possible ahistorical revolter but this won't happen if Cyprus is played) while Wittelsbach are always rulers of Bavaria, revolter or not. But Bavaria will lose Electorate or Kingdom gfx set as revolter.
 

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I see that CYP monarchs file has alternate Lusignan rulers for quite some time after the historical annexation of Cyprus by Venice. Maybe we could have an event where CYP switches to the simple lion CoA if it is ruled by the Cypriot Council?
 

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Yes, we could have an event for Cypriot Council and, in my mind, this is the same status as revolter.
After all, if Lusignan lose the Cypriot Crown at some point, can't we consider they could drop their claims on Armenia and Jerusalem in order to just "focus" on Cyprus? Situation can't be the same.
 

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YodaMaster said:
Only difference here is after 1489 and Lusignan are not rulers anymore (and possible ahistorical revolter but this won't happen if Cyprus is played) while Wittelsbach are always rulers of Bavaria, revolter or not. But Bavaria will lose Electorate or Kingdom gfx set as revolter.

I think due to the fact that cyprian rules governed that no woman would rule their nation, then when Cateriana cornaro became queen ( and she can not be queen of Jerusalem or antioch) the COA should be changed to the red lion with silver background , her status on the throne was only enforced by VEN ambassadors preventing counter claims by NAP and PRO.
 

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YodaMaster said:
It makes sense too but her husband could have been king, couldn't he?

She was never allowed to marry, although she did have a secret greek/armenian lover

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Cornaro
Venice claimed the island with this guy (check other sites for more detail) as well as via Catherina as her family ties on the island was over 100years prior to her birth

On the COA, changing the coa to red lion and silver background helps also if the cypriots revolt away from either VEN or TUR
 

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Toio said:
On the COA, changing the coa to red lion and silver background helps also if the cypriots revolt away from either VEN or TUR
I fully agree with this and I'm not opoosed to a CoA change then but in August 1474 (link):
James died soon after the wedding due to a sudden illness, and according to his will, Caterina, who at the time was pregnant, acted as regent. She became Queen when their infant son James died in August, 1474 before his first birthday, under suspicious circumstances.
Or maybe a "Daughter of the Venetian Republic" event?

Any thought?
 

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YodaMaster said:
I fully agree with this and I'm not opoosed to a CoA change then but in August 1474 (link):
Or maybe a "Daughter of the Venetian Republic" event?

Any thought?

ok on august 1474

whats this Daughter thingy refer too?
a new event?
 

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YodaMaster said:
See the intoduction of the wiki article.

so a new event which changes the COA

or


#(1474) The death of the last Lusignan
event = {
id = 154017
random = no
country = CYP
name = "EVENTNAME154017" #The death of Jacques III, last of the Lusignan
desc = "EVENTHIST154017"
#-#The tragedy has not finished for young Caterina Cornaro. At 20 years of age she has seen too many people die, but now it is her son, the King Jacques III Lusignan who dies while she was preparing his first birthday party. With him, the Lusignan dinasty becomes extinct. It also means the last of the Frankish Kingdoms in Levant and the end of a dream built over blood. By virtue of having named her -Daughter of St. Mark-, Venice becomes the heir of the Kingdom of Cyprus, but only if she does not re-marry or have any children. Her destiny has also been sealed. Her life will be spared, but her freedom has disappeared. She will always be watched and controlled. Perhaps due to her tragedy, Caterina wins the love of her Greek subjects, that for the first time support a Latin ruler.

date = { day = 6 month = july year = 1474 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME154017A" #It is all very sad
command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 12 }
}
}


COA and flag change should be with this event