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Twoflower

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As promised, I'm opening the can of worms. Since discussion on this area has very often been like this, everybody is explicitly asked to get rid of any possible bias or nationalistic passions and just contribute factual arguments. Sorry if this statement was misplaced. Alas:
red: issues being debated
yellow: debate closed, conclusion not yet implemented
things implemented in both mods right now
things implemented in AGC right now
things implemented in EEP right now
white: miscellaneous notes

Note that anything in green, blue and purple will go into the beta unless anybody strongly objects.


Country setup

  • (still tentative, but the setup I am going to include in the merger unless something exceptional happens)
  • Croatia is made part of Hungary
  • Krain is given to Styria, representing Carniola
  • Ragusa is removed, the province given to Venice, representing Durazzo
  • the province of Dalmatia is given to Hungary and controlled by Venice, representing Croatian Dalmatia
  • Morea is an independent country
  • Albania is an independent vassal of the Ottoman Empire
  • the Ottoman Empire keeps Macedonia
  • the province of Serbia represents Northern Serbia
  • Serbia starts out allied with and a vassal of Hungary
  • Is the Bulgarian revolter really needed? It will be kept
  • If Croatia is removed at start, is there any opposition to including a fantasy option for independent Croatia? A fantasy option will be implemented soon
Culture issues:
  • Should Slavonic culture be divided into Serbocroatian and Bulgarian?
  • Should Venice get Slavonic culture?
  • Should the Ottomans get Slavonic culture?
  • Should the Ottomans get Albanian culture at some point?
Province setup
  • The city of Krain is Ljubljana
  • The city of Croatia is Zagreb
  • The city of Dalmatia is Split
  • The city of Ragusa is Scutari
  • The city of Albania is Kruja
  • The city of Bosnia is Bobovaz
  • The city of Serbia is Smederevo
  • The city of Kosovo is Ras
  • The city of Morea is Mistra
  • The city of Moldova is Suceava
  • The city of Bujak is Chilia
Shield distribution:
  • Does Hungary really need to have shields on Serbia and Bosnia, considering that it makes them ahistorically annex these territories quite often?
  • The Serbian shield on Banat is removed, the one on Bosnia stays for the moment
  • Moldavia has shields on Moldavia, Bujak, Transylvania and Podolia
  • Wallachia has shields on Wallachia, Transylvania, Banat and Dobrudja
  • Should the Ottomans loose their shields on Moldavia and Wallachia, considering that they historically only vassalized these countries?
  • Should Venice have a shield on Hellas? It held Athens between 1394 and 1402 and in 1466 and always had some interest in the area
  • Should Aragon get a shield on Athens?
  • Albania looses its shield on Kosovo and gets one on Ragusa
Events:
  • Events for Albania during the age of Skanderbeg by Skanderbeg (the forum member, not the guy himself) and MKJ
  • Bosnian events by Voivode and Hogar dealing with Bosnia's fate in the 15th century and the independence of Hercegovina
  • Dracula events by Annibale
  • Succession to the Duchy of Athens of 1435 (with a possibility for Byzantium to inherit it)
  • Byzantine mantle events for Serbia, Morea and Albania

Country list:

Existing in 1419:

VEN Venice
TUR Ottoman Empire
HUN Hungary
PRM Styria
BOS Bosnia
SER Serbia
ALB Albania
ATH Duchy of Athens
WAL Wallachia
MOL Moldavia
SPR Morea

Revolters / emerging by events:

CRO Croatia
SIE Siebenbürgen
RAG Hercegovina
GRE Greece
BUL Bulgaria

Removed:

RAG Ragusa

EDIT: Added a country list
 
Last edited:

Mad King James

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Another option for Ragusa province is to make the city Durazzo and have it Venician. Albania IMHO is fine as an Ottoman vassal, but the city should be Turanë.

If we go with this option, Albanian would be a 2 province culture in Ragusa and Albania, which IMHO is better than what we have now, as Albanian is pretty useless. Personally I think Montenegro would be well represented as permanent RR in Serbia province with the conquest of Serbia. The Ottomans should always have Albanian at start IMHO.

Since this would add a province to Venice, you could take one away and make Istria (with Trieste) a Styrian province. This way Styria, Tirol, and Austria are all about equally powerful and none are 1 province. Dalmatia would then represent Venician Dalmatia. Cilli should definitely be in Krain.

Kosovo... is it southern Serbia or is it Nis? If the former, it should be Serbian, but if the latter it should be Ottoman.

Venice should only have Italian IMO.

Giving Macedonia to Byzantium should only be done if Kosovo is given to the Ottomans to maintain their bordering status with Serbia.

Oh yes, there is a 'Byzantine Mantle' event for Trebizond as well. Perhaps there should be a mantle event for Albania if it forms too?
 
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Mad King James

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balkans.jpg
 

Garbon

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Originally posted by Mad King James
Giving Macedonia to Byzantium should only be done if Kosovo is given to the Ottomans to maintain their bordering status with Serbia.

I must say, I really don't like the idea of Byzantium having Macedonia.
 

Mad King James

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Me either really, but they likely wouldn't hold it long Think of troop movement between them as military access and/or a quick boat ride ;)
 

Garbon

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Originally posted by Mad King James
Me either really, but they likely wouldn't hold it long Think of troop movement between them as military access and/or a quick boat ride ;)

I know, its just so..ugly, but then so is my Germiyan proposal as well. :(
 

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From the AGC i've come to the conclusion that putting any one provver state in Smyrna is a bad, bad idea. Better to tuck them out of the way in Antalya..
 

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Originally posted by Mad King James
From the AGC i've come to the conclusion that putting any one provver state in Smyrna is a bad, bad idea. Better to tuck them out of the way in Antalya..

But thats even more inaccurate then Paradox's placing of Teke in Antalya, as at least Teke had enough land to qualify as owning the province.
 

Mad King James

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Smyrna's too big, Antalya's really the only option :(
 

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What do you think of the changes around Albania and giving Kosovo to the Ottomans?
 

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Originally posted by Mad King James
What do you think of the changes around Albania and giving Kosovo to the Ottomans?

I don't know as much about this side, but I do think that it pleases me. Primarily, just because we get rid of pesky Ragusa. :cool:
 

Atreides

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So long as Styria receives either Istria or Krain, I'll be happy. She desparately needs to be a 2 province minor so she doesn't get eaten too early and Austria crumples without her gold mine.

If Morea is going to be independent, Byzantium needs Macedonia so that she is a two province minor and is not eaten in the first war. I don't think Macedonia is 'pretty' either, but unless Morea stays Byzantine, I don't see any better option.

If there is enough justification for Ragusa to be Albanian, it sounds good to me. The Albanian culture is just such a waste as it is, making it two provinces is at least an improvement over the current situation.

I would also go with either giving the Ottomans Albanian from the beginning, or giving her an event that adds Albanian to her culture list when she conquers it.



Quick Question: What is/was Cilli? Who was it friends with, enemies of, who ate and when did they eat it?



If the Bulgarian revolter serves any purpose, I haven't seen it - it can go.

Albania 'revolting' could be interesting, I wouldn't oppose trying that as part of the setup.

While I generally like the idea of splitting up the 'large' Cultures, I don't think Slavonic is that large - unless there is a real compelling reason to split it up, I think we can keep it intact.


Venice with Italian and Greek is enough.

The Maldavian and Wallachian shields can go away.

The Ottoman shields could be represented by an event - gain shield at cost of 2 BB each for instance. Leave option A as a No, and Option as a Yes and be done with it.

Venice has Greek culture, she should be thankful for that - a shield on Hellas is probably too much.
 

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Originally posted by Atreides
If Morea is going to be independent, Byzantium needs Macedonia so that she is a two province minor and is not eaten in the first war. I don't think Macedonia is 'pretty' either, but unless Morea stays Byzantine, I don't see any better option.

The suggestion here, was that the first war be done as an event sequence. I tried that out as a hypothetical for the EEP, and it seemed to work reasonably well. In fact, too well, as the Ottomans never desired to take out Byzantium once it became their vassal. I think the best arguement for including Morea, other than it existed :p , is that it makes Byzantium a one-provincer.
 

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Butting in just to say that IMHO Styria with Istria looks wrong and the von Cilli were not important enough to merit their own state. I really think Styria should keep Krain.
 

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Originally posted by Garbon
The suggestion here, was that the first war be done as an event sequence. I tried that out as a hypothetical for the EEP, and it seemed to work reasonably well. In fact, too well, as the Ottomans never desired to take out Byzantium once it became their vassal. I think the best arguement for including Morea, other than it existed :p , is that it makes Byzantium a one-provincer.

The reason that Byzans never got conquered was perhaps that in 1.4.1 BYZ was only in the conquest list of the AI file just for that one sultan and once they survived that one they were too safe? Will be fixed.
 

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Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
The reason that Byzans never got conquered was perhaps that in 1.4.1 BYZ was only in the conquest list of the AI file just for that one sultan and once they survived that one they were too safe? Will be fixed.

I was only referring to when I made Morea independent when I was testing. The Ottos (which is the same thing that happened to Castile-Granada but I fixed it before release) have the problem that a vassalage increases relations (generally) so even if BYZ is on the combat list, they still won't war with them unless the situation is really dire. I tend not to agree that the city determines who gets the province and so I don't think the Byzantines should have Macedonia. I think that, that would be overcompensating Byzantium's currently undercompensated strength.
 

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I support Krain belonging to Styria as Carniola. I would rather have Istria under Venetian control.
 

Atreides

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For what it is worth, count me in on Styria getting Krain instead of Istria - but if she is not to get Krain, then AT LEAST give her Istria.

On the Macedonia issue, how about a Byzantine event which triggers 1440 or so, it breaks her vassalage with the Ottomans and fires an Ottoman event. That Ottoman event lowers relations with Byzantiuma and declares war upon her.
 

Laur

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Romanian territories

I believe I posted before in the EEP and the AGC my view on the provincial claims of the Romanian principalities. As it is, the setup in 1419 and 1492 is totally unrealistic. There was no Moldavian claim over Wallachia (in fact the only time before 1859 the two countries were united was in 1600 under Michael the Brave). Instead the shields should be as follows:

Wallachia:
-CB shield on Transylvania: the Bessarab dinasty had also the fiefs of Amlas and Fagaras in Transylvania.
-CB shield on Banat: the province of Banat was a disputed area between Wallachia, Serbia and Hungary, and a cause of some wars between Wallachia and Hungary.
-CB shield on Dobrogea: was conquered by Mircea the Elder in late fourteenth century but, shortly before 1419 he was forced to cede it to the Porte.
-CB shield on the Bugeac: on EU2 map the Bugeac represents south-eastern Moldavia, a territory known at that time as Bessarabia (from the name of the Wallachian rulers). Later on it was extended to the entire region between the rivers Prut and Nistru (Dnestr). It was a disputed region between Wallachia, Moldavia, Hungary, while the main citadel of Chilia was a Genoese outpost (thus I suggest Wallahcian, Hungarian, Moldavian and even Genoese CB shields on that province).
-CB shield on Wallachia of course.

Moldavia:
-CB shield on Transylvania: the ruling family of Moldavia, the Musatins, descended from Bogdan Musat, originally voyevode of Maramures (northern Transylvania). The family was ousted but they never relinquished the claim. Throughout the fifteenth century the Moldavians and Hungarians would fight numerous border wars instead of uniting forces against the Turks. It would take a Papal intervention for Stephen the Great of Moldavia and Mathias Corvin to make peace.
-CB shield on Podolia: The city of Cernowitz (Cernauti) was in Moldavia until 1796 when it was annexed by Austria together with the entire Bucovina (Northern Moldavia and Southern Podolia on the E.U.2 map). To this one may add the long dispute over the territory of Pocutia between Moldavia and Poland that lasted until mid-sixteenth century.
-CB shields on Bugeac and Moldavia of course.

I also suggest some events for Wallachia in 1594 (Michael the Brave ascension to the throne). He fought the Turks in alliance with the voyevodes of Transylvania and Moldavia, but when the latter were replaced by Polish puppets (Andrei Bathory in Trans. and Ieremia Movila in Moldavia), Michael, with the accord of Emperor Rudolph, conquered Transylvania and Moldavia (1600). He was assassinated soon afterwards (with the knowledge, if not at the order of his one time friend, Emperor Rudolph) and the situation reverted to the previous status quo. Thus, Wallachia should get something like that Mughal event (army) + a CB shield on Moldavia, and in 1601 (year of Michael's death) should have the option of holding on to its conquests (at great risk: Austria and Poland should declare war)

Transilvania/ Siebenburgen/ Erdely ("what's in a name?" :) )

-CB shields on all provinces of Hungary (it considered itself Hungary after all).

Cheers!!

Laur