Ok for Jambi core removal in 1520 but we lack a command or event granting core on Riau with your proposal for ATJ 1419 new setup now.Garbon said:
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Garbon said:
But that's also when they became the Sultanate of Malacca (1414). I can accept the province religion as hinduism, because obviously the masses didn't convert overnight. But surely you aren't suggesting that a Sultanate can be anything other than Islamic?
( If so, I stand corrected
)
It is not clear to me:
Anyway, event driven conversion of provinces to sunni won't happen before event "Sultanate of Malacca" in 1445 according to Garbon's proposal.
At least, these articles don't say Malacca became officially a sultanate right in 1414. There was a man with "Sultan" and "Shah" in his title but, IMHO, islamization was a process. And in EU2 terms, hinduism as religion of provinces shouldn't be considered as wrong religion with penalties.
Anyway, event driven conversion of provinces to sunni won't happen before event "Sultanate of Malacca" in 1445 according to Garbon's proposal.
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YodaMaster said:
But do they say it didn't? I would think in the lack of any clear cut evidence the status quo would prevail? I would like to hear what Garbon's books say before I say anything else.
While it'll still be a little bit before I have time to transcribe here are a few sites about the sultanate.
http://www.semabokinn.com/location01.html
*seems to suggest it was a sultanate after 1445, before that small city state.*
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=513&HistoryID=aa56
*this one isn't ambiguous it straight up says that the sultanate was founded in 1445*
http://members.tripod.com/Amir10210/History.htm
*same as above unambiguous*
These are just something to mull over in the meantime and as evidence that there are sites (even if not reliable/reputable) that put the official declaration at 1445.
http://www.semabokinn.com/location01.html
*seems to suggest it was a sultanate after 1445, before that small city state.*
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=513&HistoryID=aa56
*this one isn't ambiguous it straight up says that the sultanate was founded in 1445*
http://members.tripod.com/Amir10210/History.htm
*same as above unambiguous*
These are just something to mull over in the meantime and as evidence that there are sites (even if not reliable/reputable) that put the official declaration at 1445.
Well thanks. You found something that I could not. I'm still not a believer, but I'll yield. I've been researching it at the library and could find nothing to sway me either way.
From A History of Brunei & Malaysia by John S. Major
I guess it's how you interpret it, which is why websites conflict on the issue. In the same book, it speaks of Megat's coronation as sultan taking place with full hindu ceremonies on top of islamic one. These hindu ceremonies were never truly abandoned and merged into something truly unique to SE Asia. When do you draw the line and say 'now it's an islamic state'? My instinct would be to go with when the ruler converts.
From A History of Brunei & Malaysia by John S. Major
Code:
The ruler of one such sultanate was willing to marry his daughter to
Parameswara's son, Megat ( also known as Sikander Shah ), an alliance that
promised to increase further the power of Melaka, but he demanded that
Megat convert to Islam first. When Megat followed his father to the throne (
in 1424 ), he converted his entire army- which included many Javanese and
Sumatrans- to Islam,they in turn converted their families back home.I guess it's how you interpret it, which is why websites conflict on the issue. In the same book, it speaks of Megat's coronation as sultan taking place with full hindu ceremonies on top of islamic one. These hindu ceremonies were never truly abandoned and merged into something truly unique to SE Asia. When do you draw the line and say 'now it's an islamic state'? My instinct would be to go with when the ruler converts.
Khephren said:
I disagree and I'll explain why after this transcription.
A History of Malaysia and Singapore by N.J. Ryan (1976) p. 23 & 24.
Now first off, your source is a bit confused as Megat Iskandar Shah followed his father in 1414 and died in 1424 where he was followed by Sri Maharaja Mohammed (check our monarch file to see that we've always had it that way as well). I have another text that talks about why there is often confusion in those early reigns but I forget the argument (see :The fall of Srivijaya in Malay History - O.W. Wolters for more info).
Onto the main argument:
1) It seems odd to me that each individual king would have had to convert to Islam if the official religion had been Islam. Instead, each king appears to have been raised Hindu and only converted upon taking the throne.
2)However, if we look to Sri Parameswara Dewa Shah, he never converted to Islam but rather stayed a Hindu. If we were to accept the idea that we should have a religion change everytime a ruler converts, we'd still end up with a Hindu Malacca for 1.5 year span.
3) As highlighted in this chapter all of the ruling class/nobility were Hindus. It was only with the rise of Sultan Mudzaffar Shah that Hinduism was replaced in their ranks by Islam. If the ruling classes in each province were Hindus, then Hinduism as the religion for each province is sensible as surely they shouldn't be viewed as Sunni to represent the initially small merchant class.
4) As YodaMaster pointed out, in EU2 there are negative effects for having non-state religion provinces. Clearly, the provinces must be Hindu and we would only harm Malacca by having it as Sunni at game start. A two province Malacca, with no overseas territory, is weak enough to begin with, so we don't need to weaken it further by making the province religions counter to the state religion.
5) Finally, this source explicitly states that Islam became the official religion only in 1445 with the rise of Sultan Mudzaffar Shah. Unlike other sources, it also provides the reasoning for why Islam finally became the official religion in 1445. If that isn't proof that this change should be made, I don't know what is.
Combining game play arguments with the information provided by this source, I can only stand by my claim that Malacca should start off as Hindu and then switch to Islam in 1445 via the event I created. The one change I might make is to give Malacca a free conversion in its capital, so that it only has to worry about spreading Islam to Johor, by itself. That might better capture the quickness to which the new nobles were to support Islam.
Siak should probably start off with some troops. Riau has a rather low taxbase compared to its neighbors and so without starting troops, Atjeh even without out a core finds Siak to be too easy.
Also, perhaps we should give Malacca a core on Perak.
Also, perhaps we should give Malacca a core on Perak.
How many troops : 4000 inf?
I don't remember but does Atjeh start with troops? Otherwise, we should balance a little bit and give 1000 or 2000 inf to Atjeh too.
EDIT: I checked and Atjeh starts with 5000 inf + 1000 cav. Same for Riau?
And what about Perak with 10000 inf + 2000 cav in Malacca as dangerous neighbour with core on Perak as you suggested..?
I don't remember but does Atjeh start with troops? Otherwise, we should balance a little bit and give 1000 or 2000 inf to Atjeh too.
EDIT: I checked and Atjeh starts with 5000 inf + 1000 cav. Same for Riau?
And what about Perak with 10000 inf + 2000 cav in Malacca as dangerous neighbour with core on Perak as you suggested..?
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Garbon said:
Well, this is more than I can digest on my lunch break....but I will respond later. This certainly looks like the source I was looking for, although I don't agree with your arguements ( except 2
). I do understand your gameplay arguement, so I guess that will have to do. I would make Malacca sunni with hindu as province religion. So it makes them weak, they're supposed to be. A pacifist AI and some good realtions ( which they had IIRC ) will get them through 30 years. The fact that each ruler took two titles ( hindu and Islamic ) suggests a degree of religious freedom (Innovative). In 1445, when Islam is made the "state" religion, innovative plunges and the hindus revolt ( they did IIRC ).
If I remember my Indonesian history right, Kutei should never convert to Islam. Although it was a sultanate and each ruler converted, the ruling class ( as well as the masses ) were hindu well into the twentieth century. They never had an actual announcement that Islam was the state religion.
Khephren said:
Wrong, they had outright poor relations with Ayutthaya who always wanted to conquer them (as the region had been theirs through vassalage). However, Malacca paid China tribute and then Ayutthaya attack for fear of a beat down by China. Ayutthaya attacked in 1445 as that ruler was late in sending his tribute to China.
And of course the Hindus revolted, they were being stripped of power by the ascendant Islamic faction...when they had always been in control until the regime change in 1445.
YodaMaster said:
Sorry that it took me so long to respond. Yea I'd copy the 5000 inf + 1000 cav of Atjeh for Siak. I'd also move Palembang to that as well (down from the 7000INF + 800 CAV).
Two more event changes for Malacca.
It's long been the case that Malacca doesn't colonize in this project, so I think we should modify this event to reflect that. Also, for consistencies sake, we should add Riau to this event, as it was part of Sumatra that Malacca conquered and the core is removed by a later event.
#-#The Sultanate of Malacca reached the zenith of its power during the 15th century. Either By conquest or settlement, Malacca occupied much of nearby Sumatra, the original home of Parameswara, founder of the sultanate.
I think the cores on Sumatra should be removed in this event to better simulate the collapse of Malacca.
It's long been the case that Malacca doesn't colonize in this project, so I think we should modify this event to reflect that. Also, for consistencies sake, we should add Riau to this event, as it was part of Sumatra that Malacca conquered and the core is removed by a later event.
Code:
[color=red]#(1435) Settlement of the Malay islands[/color]
[color=yellow]#(1435-1495) Conquest of Sumatra[/color]
event = {
id = 60005
trigger = {
[color=yellow]OR = {[/color]
[color=yellow] owned = { province = 680 data = -1 } #Riau[/color]
owned = { province = 681 data = -1 } #Jambi
owned = { province = 682 data = -1 } #Palembang
[color=yellow]}[/color]
}
random = no
country = MLC
name = "EVENTNAME60005" #[color=yellow]Conquest of Sumatra[/color]
desc = "EVENTHIST60005"
date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1435 }
offset = 15
[color=red]deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1435 }[/color]
[color=yellow]deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1495 }[/color]
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME60005A" #Let us expand our territory
[color=red]command = { type = transports which = -1 value = 6 }[/color]
[color=red]command = { type = colonists value = 4 }[/color]
[color=yellow]command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }[/color]
[color=yellow]command = { type = addcore which = 680 } #Riau[/color]
command = { type = addcore which = 681 } #Jambi
command = { type = addcore which = 682 } #Palembang
}
}#-#The Sultanate of Malacca reached the zenith of its power during the 15th century. Either By conquest or settlement, Malacca occupied much of nearby Sumatra, the original home of Parameswara, founder of the sultanate.
I think the cores on Sumatra should be removed in this event to better simulate the collapse of Malacca.
Code:
#(1500-1820) The Fall of Malacca
#Idea: Demetrios and Suleyman - Scripting by Havard
event = {
id = 60008
trigger = {
OR = {
control = { province = 677 data = POR }
control = { province = 677 data = HOL }
control = { province = 677 data = ENG }
}
owned = { province = 678 data = -1 }
}
random = no
country = MLC
name = "EVENTNAME60008" #The Fall of Malacca
desc = "EVENTHIST60008"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { year = 1820 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME60008A" #Move to Johor
command = { type = capital which = 678 } #Johor
command = { type = provincetax which = 678 value = 1 } #Johor
command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
command = { type = cash value = -50 }
command = { type = independence which = U36 }
[color=yellow]command = { type = removecore which = 681 } #Jambi
command = { type = removecore which = 682 } #Palembang[/color]
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME60008B" #Stay in Malacca
command = { type = stability value = -3 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 437000 } #U36: Independence of Perak
[color=yellow]command = { type = removecore which = 681 } #Jambi
command = { type = removecore which = 682 } #Palembang[/color]
}
}YodaMaster said:
I suppose since Malacca now has troops that Perak should get the same 5000 + 1000 that the other minors are getting. I'm just not sure what that'll do balance-wise in terms of Malacca taking on Perak.
Malacca army is 10000 inf + 2000 cav. Sufficient against 5000 inf + 1000 cav, isn't it?
YodaMaster said:
Inuition would suggest so, which is why I support giving Perak those troops. I can't speak definitely without testing though, as Perak often enters and alliance with Ayutthaya which could tip the balance out of Malacca's favor.
I think we might need to remove the vassalage between Perak and Ayutthaya . As it stands, I've only once in the last 15 games seen Malacca successful take on Perak and that happened long after Malacca's historical "deathdate."
Incoherencies in 1.53 events
Missing descriptions:
107003 and 107004 in AGCEEP_Specific_Annam.eue
157001 and 1570047 in AGCEEP_Specific_DaiViet.eue
EDIT: the submission has been cancelled as post #101 contains all updates to this post.
Missing descriptions:
107003 and 107004 in AGCEEP_Specific_Annam.eue
157001 and 1570047 in AGCEEP_Specific_DaiViet.eue
EDIT: the submission has been cancelled as post #101 contains all updates to this post.
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