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To Bash

You are quite right, our discussion is pointless. But if you are not interested in my opinions (which is your right), than may be you will be more respectful to the views of the esteemed russian historians such as Kostomarov, Soloviev, Karamzin or Kluchevskii ? They (especially Kostomarov and Kluchevskii) wrote in great details about the differences between Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great.

"Varangian, Kievan, Suzdalian, Muscovy, Czarstvo of all-Russians, Russian Empire, Soviet Union, Russian Federation - no difference" ? Yes, after this our discussion is quite useless. If you really beleive it, than we will not able to convince each other.
 
MichaelK,

You're arguing on a very different level to Bash. He's talking about the politico-economic view of the world in the most part, giving some time to the way in which a civil society forms around that economic reality and what implications that has, and then (and only then) treating with the traditional, politico-strategic view that you're caught up in.

So, naturally, there's going to be a disagreement when you talk about "moving" a politico-strategic concept (the state) into a different region and all the different effects that would generate. From the politico-economic standpoint, this is nonsense. After all, if nobody believed in states, they wouldn't exist - but rivers, forests and fields exist whether we believe in them or not. Sure, you might be able to import some notions about civil society, but more often than not, that foreign tissue will be rejected because it doesn't conform to the economic realities of its new home.

It's not the case that economic realities don't change over time. Clearly, they do, but generally such changes are in scale. Changes in form are rare and usually slow in coming - the principal exception to this statement is the transformation of the North American economy in the 19th Century.

On a similar note, when you talk about politico-strategic control as being the absolute defining line in what makes a colony, I can't help but laugh. I'm concerned with the underlying economic form in this case - to me, colonisation is a process of exploitation, defined by movement of wealth.

To be fair, being caught up in politico-strategic thought is traditional - but you do seem to like modernisation. :D It might be worth your while to consider the idea of looking at other analytical frameworks. Your general stand-point should make it very easy for you to get to grips with economics, as most economists make very similar assumptions about the world to the ones that you seem to be making.

(Bash, if you're going to talk materialism, then surely I can talk constructivism? :D)
 
To apologist

You, Bash and myself are having very different opinions on some of the historical issues. This is actually quite good. We are not living under the communist rule and everyone is free to express his views. (large smile)
I think, though (and I am considering this mostly as my fault) that our discussion became very off-topic. I respect your and Bash's knowledges and ideas even if I do not agree with some of them and I don't think that I will be able to convince you to change them. I also don't think that you will be able to change my views. So, what is the point to argue? All of us expressed our ideas in length and it should be sufficient.
Why don't we instead return to the original idea of a new "Western" Russia created by Lithuania.
I provided a set of events which I would like to submit. The response from the others could be:
a) This is historically impossible and should not be used in AGEEEP
b) This is not bad but should be changed(added) by the following features ...
If majority will tell me that they are against this idea completely, than of course I will not submit them. If people would like to make some changes than we could somehow compromise.

Now I would summarise the proposed changes.

1. Lithuania should be able to became Russia in 1480-1520
Pre-conditions:
a) Orthodox religion (earlier Lithuania could make ahistorical "Svidrigailo" choice and became orthodox. I wish in this case move capital to Kiev).
b) Owning Kiev, Moscow, Smolensk, Polotsk and Vladimir (there is an additional requirement to own one of 3 others russian provinces, which is the same as required for Moscow to create Russia).
c) Not to be a Polish vassal.

2. New Russia should have the following cultures: russian, ruthenian, baltic (baltic is debatable).
3. The following events for the new Russia are to be disabled:
a) Claims to the East
b) Claims to the Steppe
c) Oprichnina
d) Time of Troubles events (debatable)

3. New Russia should acquit latin technology not in 1725 (event for the Peter the Great reforms) but earlier. (this is the most serious point of discussion so far).
4. Leaders and monarhs. IMHO we should use russian leaders. Many of historical russian leaders or their ancestors in AGEEEP were actually vassals of the Great Princes of Lithuania (Glinsky, Vorotinsky, Golitsyn's family, Mstislavsky). About the monarchs I am not so sure whether we should use lithuanian ones or russian.

Please advise on these topics.
 
MichaelK,

Communism never cost any of my countrymen freedom of speech in our fifty-year experiment. The "counter-revolution" (or better put, American colonisation), on the other hand, was built on censure. YMMV.

That said:

- Which provinces would be cores for your Lithuania-Russia?

- Are you sure that Russian culture is appropriate? Ugric seems like a good bet, if Lithuania-Russia is an inheritor of Novgorod. (Of course, this largely depends on what cores you're going to give them.)

- Does it really make sense to give Lithuania-Russia the standard set of Russian leaders? Will they have any use for all of the Conquistadors?

In general, it seems to me that this project should be an added set of events for Lithuania (and using that tag). Notions of "Ruthenia" and looking at the alternate destiny of a Novgorodian Russia seemed like good ideas, as well.
 
To apologist

"Which provinces would be cores for your Lithuania-Russia?"

When Lithuania will became Russia it will add cores to the russian culture provinces (the same one which would currently be added to any other russian proncipality which will manage to create Russia). These provinces will be:
Moscow, Vologda, Tver, Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk, Karelia, Kola, Ryazan, Tula, Vladimir, Syzdal, Nizhnii. I don't think that Kazan, Tambov or Voronezh should be added.

"Are you sure that Russian culture is appropriate? Ugric seems like a good bet, if Lithuania-Russia is an inheritor of Novgorod. (Of course, this largely depends on what cores you're going to give them.)"

The majority of nobles in Lithuania in 15 century were actually russians ol half russians by blood. The same goes for the majority of the population.(IMHO in 15 century there were no serious cultural diffirences between Smolensk, Polotsk, Novgorod or Moscow). Grand Princes of Lithuania Vitautas and Algirdas were married to the princesses from Tver. So I think that adding russian culture is quite appropriate. At the other hand ugric culture is quite different from lithuanian(baltic) and why Lithuania->Russia should have it?

"Does it really make sense to give Lithuania-Russia the standard set of Russian leaders? Will they have any use for all of the Conquistadors?"
Why should new Russia be deprived of its leaders? What do you think would happen with them if Lithuania will create Russia? The same I suppose if Russia would be created by Tver or Novgorod. They will faithfully serve their new country.

"In general, it seems to me that this project should be an added set of events for Lithuania (and using that tag). Notions of "Ruthenia" and looking at the alternate destiny of a Novgorodian Russia seemed like good ideas, as well."

But AGEEEP already had a lot of events for Lithuania which will work if Lithuania will not create Russia. And please clarify what do you mean by notions of "Ruthenia" and "Novgorodian Russia" ? Currently we have a possibility of creation an independent Ukraine in the south of Russia. Is it what you mean by "Ruthenia" ? Could you please elaborate on this.
 
These states (Kiev Russia and so on) were also entirely different economical bodies. Lithuanian-formed Russia (if it would be possible) would be another different body. Peter's Semionovski and Probrazhenski Polk were a military force, oprichina was a primitive repressive structure, a bad try to create a police force, wich rather became a state-sponsored criminal force (like RF militsia today :) )

What I think we discuss quite off-topic stuff. There are enough russian forums about communism vs. autocracy vs. liberalism out there, I think. What goes for your Lithuania development scenario, Michael, I would say that a ruler from Kiev would hardly ever give up Podolia, cuz then he can get trapped in Kiev like the 300000 russian soldiers in 1941 in no time.

Now to what Sikker had said, I'd like to say that we have to revise all the Muscovy events, and work out new ones, as they don't work any more (we've got no more Suzdal, etc.). I think we should think of making NOV and MOS allied, and NVG vassalized to MOS, and then distort the relations by event. Then NVG won't get killed early any longer, and will stop allying the Kalmar Union and crush Moscow with Swedish forces, which it does sometimes an which is totally awful.
 
Article I: "Space & Matter"

SPACE & MATTER

There are a lot of different reasons for existing of any country.
Alas, any loud talks about “religious zeal”, “historical destination” & all similar rubbish more then usual means inability of speaker to articulate real reasons/basic factors for existence of this or that historical/political entity (I’m intentionally don’t speak in any “ethnic” terms).
Don’t take me wrong, - all these things are important. They are really important indeed. But all of them are – just some “overboard things” – quite visible, but very often - misleading.

Most important part of any society is “hidden basic” structure of quite material character. This thing can be measured by scientific methods.
If these methods show enough reasons for creation, maintenance & successful development of any country, it is enough reason for its existence, but its existence isn’t sure necessity.
For example, - there isn’t any reasons for independent existence of any society in soil-less glaciers of Greenland or in water-less Sahara Desert or in air-less Moon. These regions can be parts of some countries & we can have colonies of some sort in these regions, but if “Maternal country” stops feeding them – their ultimate death & destruction would is - “time question”.
Very often some of resources is enough for creation & successful maintenance of society in question, but they are not enough for “successful development” at all – then we’ve got examples of Chukchee existence in polar tundra or Bushmen in Kalahari desert. Let’s state we aren’t speaking about these cases at all. Object of our interest is societies with some sort of historical development – not “sleeping” or relict form of them.

Well, what is most important reason for existence for any country? It’s existence of material resources – necessary for social development of country in question. But for historical prosperity of any country in question you need not simple list of resources in your disposal. You need “strategic resources” & it would be quite different things.
For example: in modern Israel/Palestine region – this strategic resource is fresh water of Jordan river, but in modern Byelorussia naming “fresh water” as strategic resource would be rather strange thing.
I’m far for naming Spices as “strategic resource” for Medieval Europe, but controlling Spice trade routes for any European power was sure thing for economical prosperity. But in South East Asia region these Spices grew around for free & any beggar could collect a lot of them. If you start to pretend, – beggar who brought these Spices on local market would receive European prices for these goods, you are quite wrong I’m afraid.
Last example – Chinaware was most precious & delicate thing for European nobles in medieval times. Any Chinaware of good quality would get & highest possible bids on any European market. But in case of Chinese market when hundred of sellers start to sell their Chinaware goods of best possible quality, total profit of whole market would be lower then profit of selling of just one piece of Chinaware of not so good quality somewhere in Paris.
It means some simple idea: quite different things can be “strategic resource” & their worth depends from availability of these goods in regions of question.
Next – quite simple idea: some quite important strategic resource can vary their worth in different time-periods. For example: Ancient Persia had got her Military bonuses from deep Hazel-bushes, which gave her tremendous advantage in Archery technologies. A bit later – importance of Hazel-bushes as strategic resources diminished in rather spectacular manner. In other hand – importance of oil wells were quite negligible in Ancient times, but this thing change with time-flow as well.
Then for understanding real worth of any resource as “strategic” you need to get into equation a lot of different things & conditions.

If you start to see on European History from this angle – you would realize – very many historical things were predestined.
Some countries had a crucial need in some resources & considered them as “strategic”. Some other countries had these resources in abundance & saw them as “common resources”, but they need something in possession of countries from first group. This situation means – some country from first group has “natural sympathy” to country from second group. It means - both countries would get a lot of positive relations in their history. They will create some dynastic/military alliance as result of their excellent relationships & later – quite possible will unite in one entity.
For example: Ile-de-France needed Champagne vineyards for improving cash inflow in her coffers. Champagne needed human resources for security reasons from food-excessive Ile-de-France region. They united as result of their excellent relationships & French kings start to rule France from Paris (Ile-de-France), but was used to be crowned in Reims (Champagne). From other hand – different neighbors of Ile-de-France – either didn’t have enough “cashable resources” or weren’t interested in receiving additional “bread-eaters” at all. Then this starting pair for “unification of France” process was most “natural” & this dynastic marriage was (in some sense) “made in Heavens” – or predestined.
It’s quite simple case & more relations were quite more complex, but you can get an Idea.

If you would see on European geographic, climatic, geological chart you would realize – it’s quite “facetious”, multi-resource region with hard nudging for all local entities to interact between them in really hard manner. It means this region had quite high level of diplomatic, military & religious activity & this activity means faster development of involved subjects in this activity. Repetitions & training brings – skill & raising skill brings proficiency & etc.
But when you start to see on these charts harder – you would see some really important feature: this “facetious” thing is right for Western, Northern, Southern & partially – Central Europe. Eastern Europe has quite different character of resource distribution – it’s more – “homogenous”. Geological chart shows this feature best of all – with notable exception of Dniepr Crystalline Shield in midst of modern Ukraine – all other geological structures have sedimentary character. It means you’ve got vast quantities of limestone, claystone, fertile soil here, but any metamorphic lands (which yield iron sands – for example) with notable exception of only Crystalline Shield are absent. Take a notice – Civilization reach necessary technology level for mining “Shields” in XIX century, then till this time-moment any deposits of metamorphic origin was practically unreachable.
In practical sense it means – lands of Eastern Europe were quite fertile & very convenient for colonization, but any society raised in these lands would be crushed in no time due to “iron sands” absence. Iron means Armory & Weaponry – most important military goods for Early Medieval times – then any invaders went through these lands as knife through butter, because they were in social sense – defenseless. While you haven’t any stable Iron resource input from some outside country – no social entity could create any state in this region. More then that – this “donor” country had to have these Iron resources in abundance – nobody likes to strengthen its neighbor for its own expense.
Closest possible “free resources” of Iron are in Carpathian Mountains – then initial countries of region started to grow or to be donated from this side, including easternmost of them – ancestor of modern Poland, but all of them excluded from this issue. We like to see on development of more eastern countries of region, which hasn’t ANY access to ANY Iron resources in this time-period at all.

Next closest possible source of Iron was in Scandinavia with most important & easy collected deposits in British Isles. All these lands in times of question were united under one hand – of Danish king Canute the Great. But this quite successful King has some predecessors in this field – Vikings, which had another name of Varangs. We came to actual Russian History at last – “Varangian Rus” started.

What sort of resources Varangs needed more then other to extent for naming it as “strategic”?
1) Primary idea would be quite banal – they are northern regions with rather low winter temperatures. They would like to have Furs for cheapest possible prices. Fine.
2) Scandinavian soils are relatively poor – result of existing of giant Scandinavian Glacier in earlier geology epochs, then these lands could produce lesser harvests on the same square in comparison with harvested land with Black-soils in around Kiev area. It is Good thing indeed.
3) Scandinavia is actually in farthest possible corner of Europe for receiving Eastern goods: Spices, Aromatic things, Luxuries of any sort – then any local noble would like to make their expenses smaller for receiving all these goods. Then region in question has rather direct way into Southern regions via Volkhov-Dniepr River Trade System. This route has one rather harsh bottleneck as Dniepr Falls (place of coming on surface of hidden structures of Crystalline Shield), but it means you need to make some big storage/dropping-catching place in near vicinity of Falls – then this thing would be made usable as well. It’s not quite fine, but – satisfactory.
What are sort of resources local leaders would need in exchange? (It would be rather unthinkable to create quite “raze & pillage” economy if you like to get grain in exchange. Local serfs must remain quite happy & loyal to their rulers to continue harvesting their fields – if we like to have some success in this “business project”. Do you see?
Oh, they need Iron – quite hard. Well, we get some due to vassalization of British Isles in vicinity. We can’t spend our own guys for mining process, because it’s quite hard & time/strength consuming, and we need all our guys as warriors, but if English serfs would give Iron for Russians in exchange for Furs & Food for ourselves & Englishmen it would be quite good idea. Well, did you check what would be result of huge Rebellion in these lands against our Rule?
1) Iron was – strategic resource for Russian nobles, they couldn’t fight any foreign aggression without this resource. It means they became “our puppets” of some sort – totally depending from this source they could fight anyone with notable exception of Scandinavians.
1) Fur & Food are less-strategic resource. If we stop to receive this sort of goods we would get harm of some sort, but we will survive. It means – we can break this business project in halves, crush any possible rebellions of Russians (we will survive this breaking – they will not) & then we’ll start it again – quite smooth.
Yep, we are for this Business project – let’s start it!

Well, as you see it wasn’t religious or national – project from start. It was business, plain business. By the way, it has one main flaw in it from Scandinavian side & one main flow from Russian side of view. Most important strategic resource in this scheme was produced outside of Scandinavian core-lands as well as outside Russian core-lands. If Scandinavian would lose this region for good – this “business project” would die by swift & painful death – Scandinavian managers likes it or not.
More then that if Iron sources in this scheme would go into hands of Scandinavian enemies, they wouldn’t have power enough for returning them back, but they have power enough for preventing coming these strategic resources to Russia via their Straits on North/Baltic sea. It means - if there would any problems with Scandinavian rule on British Isles – Kievan/Varang Rus would be in big jam. But we come into this quite fast, - let’s see onto Varang Rus features more close.

There were a lot of articles in Russian History journals in mid-1980s about rather interesting method of dating Medieval Weaponry & Armory in Russian/Soviet soil. Each Medieval Iron deposit had its own distribution of different elements on iron ore, then technology processes in different regions of World were different, then charcoal addition procedure brought in different amounts of Sulfur, Phosphor & Carbon into manufactured item. Then some quite smart guys from Leningrad University create quite simple method: you take one broken ring from some Medieval ring-mail, drop it in acid & make simple chemical analysis of resulting solution. Statistic in case of more then two thousand different was collected & they’ve got quite surprising result.
All of studied Weaponry/Armory items manufactured till end of XI century found in Russian/Soviet soil which have definite “Russian origin” show usage of manufacturing process by “Scandinavian technology” & Iron deposits which were used for manufacturing process in around of 70% cases have… British Islands origin. It means…
For better understanding – let’s imagine some country with rather huge military force, but all Panzers, Aircrafts, Cannons, machine-guns & nuclear warheads in this Army are manufactured in some different country. More then that – lion share (around 70%) of all spare-parts for all of this machinery this country receive from abroad as well. And this is – one & the same “benevolent friend”/”sugar daddy” which had absolute national majority of Military Officers in Army in question & ruler of this country had foreign origin (from the same “sugar daddy” home-address) as well. Do you see?
There was quite great havoc about this rather non-pretentious chemical work in midst of 1980s… Situation “of imagined hint on Russian Slavery from Westerners” saved continuation of their work, which show – all items created in Suzdal/Muscovy Rus from XII till XVI century had the same feature – deposits in Caspian mountainous region with distinctive primary manufacturing by Asiatic technologies. Then primary (quite hysterical) idea about “Varangs medieval colonialism” changes into more plausible – “quite strong economical ties shifts” theory. But anyway…

When I studied course of Ancient Russian literature in Secondary Education course my tutor read story of “killing Prince Igor by Drevlians & Princess Olga Revenge” quite loud & asked our opinions. When we made all possible suggestions (& actually failed to see his point) he re-read this event with one small change: He spoke “English Colonel” instead “Sveneld” & “Lancashire Regiment” instead of “Sveneld’ men” & “local Raja” instead “Prince Igor” with “Raja bodyguards” instead of “Igor’s Druzhina”. We were just crushed by this changing. All “dark places” became quite ugly & visible.
Why did some insignificant “Sveneld’ men” had right to pillage local population earlier then “Russian Prince Guards”?
Why was there quite distinguishable mutual unfriendliness between both regiments?
Why did Drevlian (tutor named him as Dravidian) leader (lord of local aborigines) liked to have Princess Olga/Helgi (beautiful Englishwoman) as his wife (this wife would raise his prestige around all other aborigines – in quite spectacular manner)…
Well, when full meaning of this bitter message came down to our brains & was studied, recognized & absorbed in full silence, tutor said: “It’s quite bitter thing. But it’s Truth. It’s real truth about our History. I’m not sure if this Truth can be blown out to our commoners, but you’ve already got your University degrees – then you can survive with this knowledge. Remember just one thing – there isn’t any modern major country which wasn’t somebody colony or sub-colony in start of her history. Remember – Britain, Spain, France & United States started as full-scale colonies. Then we are in rather good & bright company. Only exception is modern China, but I prefer to have development example from these European & North American countries, then from our Asian neighbor.
Anybody in Europe was infant; anyone military forces started from quite primitive condition & big question isn’t – if we was somebody colony. It’s our determination to be free from any foreign oppression in past, present & future.
And most crucial thing – don’t believe into quite pleasing words from anyone about your country. In Kievan Rus time all foreign sources about this country were Scandinavian sources. Try to realize there wasn’t any praising of Russian “Gardarika” at all, it wasn’t surprised whisper of crushed visitors by beautiful sightseeing. It was happy cry of real Masters: “It’s rich Gardarika! It’s our possession! It’s best Jewel in Crown of our Empire!” Then if you would hear the same remarks in future – try to check in – what is real meaning of this happiness? Gotcha?”

Well, let’s check in – what was method of governing of Varang Rus country & why did actual rulers prefer to make things in this way.
I would repeat again – primarily it was business project & it was managed as quite successful business project in quite efficient/”European” manner. Main idea/profit of this thing derived from Fur trading. It was initial reason for Masters to make their initial capital in Ladoga place. Ladoga Lake shores are quite haven for any fur-bearing wild animals, and then it would be quite good idea to make main collector center in this region. But very soon Masters saw main flaw in this idea. There were aborigines around. They were quite bothersome & nasty, then Masters have got more bright – “improved” business idea. We don’t need to collect Furs ourselves; we will collect them from locals. Best collector place in region was a bit in south direction on Volkhov River. It was Novgorod. Rurik came into Novgorod & start to rule here. But there was again – some fault in this placement – some local “barbarian leaders” continued to harass Fur collection process & Novgorod region never has got manpower enough for stopping their nastiness. Then Rurik went south for next most appropriate collector center – just above main “trade-way bottleneck” in Dniepr Falls, which has name of Kiev.
Let’s check in this construction. Varangs actually didn’t like to have all Kievan Rus territory. Their main interests were focused on Fur-gathering regions, but security reasons demanded “military shield” existence in more southern regions. Then – like any modern Western company Varang Rus had two-headed structure. Directors Committee in Novgorod, which answered for most important & profitable side of whole project – “Furs gathering” & Executive Manager Office in Kiev with all possible not-financial outlets. It was main reason for creation only “Free Republic” in Eastern Europe. Any business process needs diversification of outsourcers & trade-partners for preventing monopoly creation from other side of bargaining table. Then Masters can’t allow any Novgorod’ Principality at all. On other hand any business project need only one head of Security service, then Masters prefer to have only Great Prince for all-other lands with notable exception of Novgorod.
You can check it yourself, if you start to see into Russian annals more close. In early times you’ve got a lot of previously unknown personalities from Novgorod, which like “Deus aux Machine” – just appeared from thin air, ruled Kievan Rus & then disappeared in the same thin air again. Then you can only speculate – who were these personages. For example - Oleg/Algirdas the Sage or one of Igors/Ingvaras. (There were some different Igors, or Igor (Olga husband) had to die in around eighty years old age, giving birth to his son in these years – quite hilarious assumption for Early Medieval health situation). In other words – Executive Manager, who was chosen by Ruling Committee in Novgorod, ruled Kiev.
In more recent times of Kievan Rus history we start to see – what “was cooking” in Novgorod kitchen clearer. Vladimir, son of slave of Ugric origin starts to be Kievan ruler, by Sveneld troops & Novgorodian Druzhina backing. Nobody in Medieval history likes to mention his slave origin, then – in case of any witness absence, Vladimir’ origin would be unknown as well as Oleg the Sage & we would just speculate about it. In other words – Novgorodian Committee & Masters was absolutely indifferent to legitimization of Kievan ruler. They just appointed him, gave him money & Iron resources enough & new Kievan ruler was created.
This mechanism became quite clear in next ruler – Jaroslav the Wise appointment. Kievan Rus became quite important part of European society, Scandinavia regions depended from fur & food deliverance from Rus quite hard – then this country was important enough for Danish King attempt to unite it with all his other realms. Novgorod Committee never had power enough for arguing with Masters then grandson of Danish King Canute the Great was appointed. He never had any right to be Great Prince of Kiev at all, but Masters like this candidate & all other Rus could go to Hell with all other different opinions. Then Jaroslav Invasion started &… went quite wrong. Actually this ruler was so weak & military lackluster that – he lost all general battles in his campaign! But Masters cross their fingers for him, then his victory was predestined.
Check it yourself – all other candidates hadn’t Iron supplies at all, then any battle diminished their Iron resources, but they’ve got other enemies as well. All south Russian cities were harassed be Pechenegs in the same time-period. Then all Russian had quite simple alternative – back up Jaroslav/Masters side & kick-off Pechenegs; fight Jaroslav/Masters & to be eaten by Pechenegs alive, due to total absence of Military resources for successful defense. The Jaroslav won.
Please, check in again – first thing after Jaroslav victory was - “Jaroslav Truth” establishment. Masters/Victors liked to bind Kievan Rus to their realms for ages & needed juridical backing of their claims. Please, read in “Jaroslav Truth” more close with changing all inclusions “German (Danes were considered as Germans by Russians) traders” on “MASTERS” & you would get better understanding of this document. But some after-thought whispers some evil ideas about this thing. For example, Britons didn’t need any juridical backing for Indians for ruling their country. But then they need it quite hard. It was just before Indian rebellions started & India independence event started.
It means quite simple thing – any strong Colonial power needn’t any explanation before aborigines about way of ruling & methods of aboriginal management. But any weak Colonial power needs all possible excuses – quite hard. It means – something went quite wrong in Scandinavia for “Jaroslav Truth” introduction in Russia. Do you see?
What was reason for this weakness? If we start to see into diplomatic activity of Jaroslav (Danish puppet) a bit closer, we would realize – grandson of Canute the Great seek any possible help in whole world for some family reason. But more then family reasons there were his own reasons – full dependency of Russian military might from Iron resources from… British Isles. And it was time when situation there made for Scandinavians – quite bad turn. Try to see on Jaroslav policy as on fervent attempt to get Britain iron resources back “into family” or break in to Carpathian Mountain Iron resources. For example, he married his daughter on French King in exchange for promise from French side “to push on Duke of Normandy” – quite weird asking from Russian ruler for anyone, if you don’t understand – “what is cooking”. Well, it means battle on Hastings in 1066 (with cutting down Harold – member of Canute the Great family) made more harm for Kievan Rus, then all Nomad incursions of these times! Well, Jaroslav wasn’t quite good diplomat at all. European courts made diplomatic alliances with him as with member of Canute the Great family. Then all his diplomacy went wrong. German Emperor went into Canossa. French King went into some wild desert. Carpathian rulers didn’t hear all his requests at all. Then Varangian Rus just burst out in one big fireball of huge Rebellions wave & Civil War madness. Byzanthium Rus started.

Well, next period of Russian history had more common description of “Feudal Splitting” then “Byzanthium”, but everybody agreed Byzanthium influence became to be most important on all Russian affairs. Russia still need strategic resource of Iron. No one country in existence could fulfill this huge need of constantly growing country, then different parts of country start to seek different sources of this resource.
1) Scandinavians/Danes/Hansa League kept Novgorod region as their main Fur collection asset. They start to send them Iron of Scandinavian Peninsula origin. It was quite expensive material now & Novgorodian army became quite small, but it was enough for keeping this business project. From this moment Novgorodian Rus became to be quite independent from other Russia. It was more – resource sub-colony of Hansa then normal country now.
2) South-West Russian Principalities (later – Galitsia) reached Carpathian Mountains in this time-period. They became to sucked in local around-Carpathian policy more then in all-Russian political life, then they became to be part of Central Europe more then Russian Prioncipalities.
2) North-East Russian Principalities (Suzdalia – later Muscovy) reached Volga Valley & via this huge natural trade-way became to be involved in around Caspian/Mid-Asian policy. It was actual start of Modern Russia, but special structure features of these countries need special attention – then we will check them a bit later in Second Article “Idea & Matter”.
2) All other Russian Principalities became to be quite dependable from Iron input from South end of Dniepr Trade way – from Greeks. It was disaster.

Let’s check in – what would be Byzanthium’ interest in sending their Iron resources (from Asia Minor region) to Russian principalities. First look onto Byzanthium situation explains all. Constantinople is most populated city in Europe. Period. It means – this city needed a lot of cheap working hands to keep in from disaster. It means – Byzanthium needed a lot of Slaves. And there were a lot of human resources in food-raising black-soiled Russian cities of Kiev region.

Please, compare this situation with Danish mastery situation. Yep, Danes liked to have local resources by cheapest possible price, but they needed united country. They need big farms, calm population & prosperous cities. In other words, they needed calm Farm of some sort. Birds sing, grass grows, Cows give their milk for masters – quite European picture.
Byzanthium masters needed Slaves. But Slaves under feudal social condition appeared as WAR results. Then Byzanthium masters needed as many wars here as possible. They needed – Hunting ground of some sort instead of European Farm! Then first quite Byzanthium oriented rulers start to make was against outsiders (Vseslav war – against Polotsk Principality). Alas, Slaves from rather empty moorland/forestry region wasn’t enough. Masters needed ‘bigger kills” now. Most “human-packed” region of time-period was Kiev itself. Then it became most important “slave-yield” source for all sides. Well…

If you check in Russian sources you would realize – they’ve got rather neutral/neutral-positive attitude to Varangs, but they’ve got a quite negative/loathing attitude to Greeks. Only ggod word about Greeks in Letopisi ai : “They brought in our Faith for us”. Period. It isn’t very many sentiments for most enlightened & cultural-advanced country of the World.
Academician Tikhomirov described this attitude like this: “Imagine some orphan boy, who was raised by some aunt or adopted mother. She had her own children, then infancy of our orphan wasn’t quite bright, but she cared about him in a way. Then he had rather positive-neutral emotions about this aunt. Then old aunt suddenly died & our boy was taken into some orphanage & local curators preferred to use him in most unspeakable manner. Then all hatred, all childish tears you can see in his memories about this unlucky period. His education was only good thing, which our orphan had in this cruel house. Then… Then he had some thanks for this thing for his tutors, but if you try to look in deeper, you would find – hidden enmity to anything reminded him this period. Then our grown man actually has hidden hath to any of his former school-mates.
It means Russia in all moment of her historical development had more hard feelings against any Orthodox brethren then to Western Christians or Muslims. Childish memories could be quite hidden, but they have an influence on whole life & behavior of any subject”.

End of Article One.
 
almoravid said:
Now to what Sikker had said, I'd like to say that we have to revise all the Muscovy events, and work out new ones, as they don't work any more (we've got no more Suzdal, etc.). I think we should think of making NOV and MOS allied, and NVG vassalized to MOS, and then distort the relations by event. Then NVG won't get killed early any longer, and will stop allying the Kalmar Union and crush Moscow with Swedish forces, which it does sometimes an which is totally awful.

That's a pretty extreme solution. It's probably the best first port of call, though it might give MOS opportunities to get into a silly war with the Scandinavians anyway.

Anyway, I'll run a couple of hands-off tests and see how this works out.
 
Seeing in another thread a mention of Russia being "moved" to Asia-then failing to figure out, here, what the exact idea is, what the pro's and con's are.. perhaps someone could enlighten me?

Some pro's/con's/changes I thought of:

No more ability to recruit mercenaries. (Human player only effect)
Europeans will not call allies when fighting Russia. (this might be a pro for early NVG (if that is to be Asia aswell) )
no location penalty for colonies in the corridor (imho, not quite what should be the case, Siberian colonies were, to my knowledge, not known for their exceptional growth)
Manpower from all Asian holdings, regardless of land connection.
No Manpower from European holdings, except when a land connection is present.

I'm not sure this IS actually true, but it does seem that way; intercontinental DoWs seem to be less frequent than same-continent DoWs (fe. making N. Africa part of Europe seems to get Europeans more involved in the area)
This could be positive again, early on, in protecting NVG and others from early aggression. It would ALSO, if it's true, help Russia focus more on getting the corridor opened.

Any things I have missed, have wrong, or you have a different opinion on?
 
almoravid said:
Now to what Sikker had said, I'd like to say that we have to revise all the Muscovy events, and work out new ones, as they don't work any more (we've got no more Suzdal, etc.). I think we should think of making NOV and MOS allied, and NVG vassalized to MOS, and then distort the relations by event. Then NVG won't get killed early any longer, and will stop allying the Kalmar Union and crush Moscow with Swedish forces, which it does sometimes an which is totally awful.

Thank you. Thank you. This whole LIT->RUS business is driving me nuts.

A NOV allied to MOS would be a solution. What should the relations be? (And please remember that how relations work has been altered - apparently by 125 (so that earlier -125 is now 0).
However, was there any historic justification for an alliance? Could anyone give a short description on what the relations (not in EUII numbers) were at the time between the Russian minors (including NOV and MOS).
 
@ForzaA
The idea is to channel RUS pre-Peter trade to asia, and make portless Russia incapable of trading in Europe.
No more ability to recruit mercenaries. (Human player only effect)
Not too bad. They didn't use mercs on the same extent as any european nation. No Tillies in Russia? Good.

Europeans will not call allies when fighting Russia
No more Czechs and Hungarians around Ryasan? Good. It makes the game easier, but there were no pan-european crusades on Muscovy. We'll find a way to weaken it if it gets too mighty.

@Sikker
Novgorod had some minor clashes with MOS before 1419, but they can't be called hostile. Nominally, Novgorod was subordinate to the Grand Duke of Russia, who was duke of Moscow in personal union - like in HRE.
 
Here is what shall replace the feud between Vasily and Yuri events. They are not highly innovative, but I could think of nothing better. Crook's sequence (40000-40004) was made for the EEP which ahistorically included Suzdal, and therefore doesn't work any longer, so I think we should delete and replace it with what I post below. The Shemiaka sequence should also be replaced with an event portraiting it as revolts&desertions.
Code:
##########################
#Succession conflict 1425#

event = {
    id = 233003
    trigger = { monarch = 05171 } #Vasily II.
    random = no
    country = MOS
    name = "Succession crisis"
    desc = "After the death of Vasily I. Dmitrievich, Yuri Dmitrievich, his brother, refused to acknowledge the ascension of duke's son Vasily II. Vasilievich, a child, ten years of age. Residing in Galich, a town in the north of muscovite realm, he claimed the throne for himself, mobilized a large army, and prepared for war. Vitautas of Lithuania, duke's grandfather, and the boyars of Moscow convinced Vasily to send metropolite of Moscow as an envoy who would negotiate peace with Yury. The latter agreed to a cease fire, according to which the Khan of the Golden Horde would decide who would become the duke of Muscovy, while in the meantime, both opponents would keep their current posessions."
    style = 1

    date = { day = 7 month = february year = 1425 }
    offset = 20

    action_a ={
        name = "Let us make peace with uncle Yury"
        command = { type = stability value = 1 }
        command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 48 }
        command = { type = MIL which = -1 value = 48 }
        command = { type = relation which = LIT value = 50 }
        command = { type = relation which = STE value = 25 }
        command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -1 }
        command = { type = revoltrisk value = 2 }
    }
    action_b ={
        name = "Let us accept Yury's right and resign"
        command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 05171 }
        command = { type = monarch which = 05195 } #Yury IV
        command = { type = relation which = LIT value = -50 }
        command = { type = stability value = -2 }
        command = { type = vp value = -15 }
        command = { type = sleepevent which = 233004 }
    }
    action_c ={ 
        name = "Let us crush this traitor"
        command = { type = stability value = -4 }
        command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
        command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 7500 }
        command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 7500 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 } #Vologda
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } #Yaroslavl'(Moscow)
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } 
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 279 } #Moscow (Tula)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 } #Vladimir (Ryasan)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        command = { type = revoltrisk value = 15 }
        command = { type = relation which = LIT value = -10 }
        command = { type = sleepevent which = 233004 } #Khan decides
        command = { type = sleepevent which = 233007 } #dinner conflict
        }
}

##############
#Khan decides#

event = {
    id = 233004
    trigger = { 
          NOT = { 
             event = 287012   #GH - yoke renounced
             war = { country = MOS country = STE } 
              } }
    random = no
    country = STE
    name = "Succession conflict in Muscovy"
    desc = "As the princes in Muscovy were unable to decide who would become the next grand duke after Vasily I. died, they asked the khan as their overlord to appoint one. This was a common practice in the past, and so the Khan gladly accepted. The candidates were Yury Dmitrievich, the former duke's brother, and the young Vasily Vasilievich, the former duke's son. The latter had secured the support of the majority of tatar nobles, and thus the khan decided in his favour."
    style = 1

    date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1428 }
    deathdate = { day = 8 month = february year = 1433 }
    offset = 800

    action_a ={
        name = "My choice is ...Vasily"
        command = { type = trigger which = 233006 }
        command = { type = relation which = MOS value = 50 }
        command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
        command = { type = stability value = 1 }
    }
    action_b ={ 
        name = "Let's give Yury a chance"
        command = { type = trigger which = 233005 } 
        command = { type = relation which = MOS value = 15 }
        command = { type = stability value = -1 }
        command = { type = sleepevent which = 233007 }
    }
    action_c ={ 
        name = "Don't annoy me with this nonsense!"
        command = { type = stability value = -1 }
        command = { type = relation which = MOS value = -50 }
        command = { type = vp value = -5 }
    }
}


#####################
#Khan voted for Yury#

event = {
    id = 233005
    random = no
    country = MOS
    name = "The Khan puts Yury on the throne"
    desc = "The Khan decided to give the grand ducal title to Yury, thus confirming the old russian horizontal succession way, according to which the eldest brother or the eldest nephew, not the son of the duke inherited the throne. In such a situation, Vasily would have no choice but to accept, and wait for his turn for a couple of years."
    style = 1
    action_a ={
        name = "We can't fight the khan"
        command = { type = stability value = 1 }
        command = { type = relation which = LIT value = -50 }
        command = { type = relation which = STE value = 25 }
        command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 05171 }
        command = { type = monarch which = 05195 }
#       command = { type = monarch which = 05173 }
    }
    action_b ={ 
        name = "Whatever the khan says, I'll fight for my throne"
        command = { type = stability value = -4 }
        command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 2500 }
        command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 2500 }
        command = { type = revoltrisk value = 15 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 } #Vologda
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } #Yaroslavl'(Moscow)
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } 
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 279 } #Moscow (Tula)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 } #Vladimir (Ryasan)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        command = { type = relation which = LIT value = 20 }
        command = { type = relation which = STE value = -75 }
    }
}

#####################
# Khan chose Vasily #

event = {
    id = 233006
    random = no
    country = MOS
    name = "The Khan accepts Vasily as the grand duke"
    desc = "In 1428, three years after the feud in Muscovy stopped, Vasily still hesitated to travel to the khan and ask him to decide who would become Vasily I's heir. Yury however threated to resort to arms, and finally, both dukes went to the Khan's court. Although Yury had formally more rights on the throne, as Dmitry Donskoi in his testament said that Yury shall follow Vasily I. on throne, and as it also was in accordance to the old russian inheritance tradition. The young Vasily however was supported by the majority of muscovite and tatar nobility, so that the khan finally decided in his favour."
    style = 1
    action_a ={
        name = "Our rights are confirmed!"
        command = { type = stability value = 2 }
        command = { type = relation which = STE value = 25 }
    }
}

##############################
# The affront at the wedding #

event = {
        id=233007
        trigger = { monarch = 05171 } #Vasily II.
        random = no
        country = MOS
        name = "Grand Duke Vasily's wedding"
        desc = "It seemed first that Muscovy was in peace. The grand duke Vasily celebrated his wedding, and invited his cousins, Vasily Kosoi, and Dmitry Shemiaka, sons of Yury. There, however, Sofia Vitovtovna, grand duke's mother, ordered to strip Kosoi of the jewelry he was wearing, as it was rumored to be stolen from Dmitry Donskoi many years ago. Enraged, both young dukes left the celebration, while their father had a casus belli he was looking for."
        style = 1
        date = { day = 8 month = february year = 1433 }
        deathdate = { day = 5 month = june year = 1434 }
        offset = 60

    action_a ={ 
        name = "Prepare for war!"
        command = { type = stability value = -2 }
        command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
        command = { type = revoltrisk value = 15 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 } #Vologda
        command = { type = revolt which = 268 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } #Yaroslavl'(Moscow)
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 } 
        command = { type = revolt which = 270 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 279 } #Moscow (Tula)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 } #Vladimir (Ryasan)
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 448 }
        }
    action_b ={ 
        name = "Surrender to duke Yury"
        command = { type = stability value = 1 }
        command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 05171 }
        command = { type = monarch which = 05195 }
        command = { type = vp value = -15 }
        }
}

#########################
#If Yury takes Moscow...#

event = {
        id=233008
        trigger = { 
                   monarch = 05171 #Vasily II.
                   control = { province = 279 data = REB }
                   }
        random = no
        country = MOS
        name = "Yury takes Moscow"
        desc = "Jubiliant, the troops of duke Yury enter the city of Moscow. While duke Vasily II. flees, Yury assumes the title of the grand duke. He is not vengeful towards his nephew and gives him some cities as personal property, but after the latter starts gathering troops, Yury decides to ban him out of the realms of Muscovy. Vasily finds shelter in Novgorod, and waits for an occasion to regain his throne."
        style = 1
        date = { year = 1425 }
        deathdate = { day = 5 month = june year = 1434}
        offset = 5

    action_a ={ 
        name = "Long live Grand Duke Yury!"
        command = { type = monarch which = 05195 }
        command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 05171 }
        command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 4000 }
        command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 4000 }
        command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 05171 }
        command = { type = stability value = 2 }
        command = { type = vp value = -15 }
        }
}


####################
#Vasily reinstalled#

event = {
        id=233009
        trigger = { 
                   monarch = 05195 
                   }
        random = no
        country = MOS
        name = "Death of Yury Dmitrievich"
        desc = "Surprisingly soon after finally beating Vasily and securing the throne, duke Yury dies. His testament, written a long time ago, detached only his personal posessions amongst his sons, without appointing a heir for the grand duchy, but warning his sons to pay taxes to the 'grand duke'. This statement was taken as assumption that Vasily would again become Duke, and as Yury and his children had no real support amongst the nobles, Vasily easily regained his throne. Vasily Kosoi, Yury's eldest son, did not accept this, and started gathering troops. As not even his brothers, Dmitry Krasny and Dmitry Shemiaka, were ready to support Kosoi, his fight was doomed, and he ended up leading a band pillaging the Vyatka region."
        style = 1
        date = { day = 4 month = june year = 1434 }

    action_a ={ 
        name = "He'll regret this"
        command = { type = monarch which = 05173 }
        command = { type = revolt which = 271 } #Vyatka (Vladimir)
        }
}

####################
#Kosoi captured    #

event = {
        id=233010
        trigger = { 
		event = 233009
		NOT = {control = { province = 271 data = REB } } 
                }
        random = no
        country = MOS
        name = "Kosoi is defeated"
        desc = "Soon the last of Vasily Kosoi's bands were beaten by ducal troops, which vastly outnumbered them. Grand Duke, Vasily II. Vasilievich, being tired of the eternal questioning of his rights, decided to statuate an example not soon to be forgotten. He blinded Kosoi, and sent him to a remote monastery where the unlucky usurper died a few years later, while the lands he owned were given to his brother, Dmitry Shemiaka. This act of barbaric cruelity was practiced on a duke only three times in russian history."
        style = 1
        date = { day = 1 month = july year = 1434 }
        deathdate = { day = 1 month = april year = 1445 }

    action_a ={ 
        name = "Blind him and send him to a monastery"
	command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
	command = { type = stability value = 2 }
        }
    action_b ={ 
        name = "Forgive him and give him a minor estate"
	command = { type = stability value = -3 }
	command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 48 }
        }
}

Here are also some additional monarchs we would need (some of them have fake ids that would need to be replaced):

Code:
#############################
# The vanilla ones returned 
#############################
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 05173 }
	name = "Vasily II Temny"
	startdate = {
		day = 5
		month = june
		year = 1434
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 27
		month = march
		year = 1462
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "'the dark', Restored once"
}

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 05195 }
	name = "Yuri IV"
	startdate = {
		day = 2
		month = january
		year = 1425
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 5
		month = june
		year = 1434
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 6
	dormant = yes
}
####################################################
#The following would make a nice Shemiaka dynasty, they have fake ids
####################################################
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = M01 }
	name = "Dmitry II Shemyaka"
	startdate = { year = 1445 }
	deathdate = { year = 1453 }
	DIP = 2
	ADM = 1 #His incapability was legendary
	MIL = 7
	dormant = yes
	remark = "deposed 1447"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = M02 }
	name = "Vasily II Temny"
	startdate = {
		year = 1447
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 27
		month = march
		year = 1462
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Restored again"
}
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = M03 }
	name = "Ivan III Shemyakin"
	startdate = { year = 1453 }
	deathdate = { year = 1471}
	DIP = 6
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 8
	dormant = yes
	remark = "I didn't do much research on his stats yet, they are random :)"
}
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = M04 }
	name = "Vasily III Shemyachich"
	startdate = { year = 1471 }
	deathdate = { year = 1529 }
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "I didn't do much research on his stats yet, they are random :)"
}
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = M05 }
	name = "Ivan IV"
	startdate = { year = 1529 }
	deathdate = { year = 1561 }
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 8
	remark = "I didn't do much research on his stats yet, they are random :)"
	dormant = yes
}

On Novgorod-Moscow relations
I'll better put some facts on pre-Ivan III NVG-MOS rels, so you can create an oppinion
-NVG had a war against MOS in 1398, lost some lands, and was't really on good terms with Vasily, but they did acknowledge his claim to be their overlord.
-There always were grand duke's councilors in NVG territory, they had little/no power however
-Vasily's Muscovy made war on Lithuania because of Lithuanian aggression against Pskov
-Vasily II's early rule was quite weak, and he didn't really interfere into other princedoms' affairs
-Vasily II found shelter in NVG when exiled
-Vasily II's enemies also found shelter in NVG when the luck turned
-That was the reason for another war in 1456, with minor casualties however
-In late Vasily II's reign, NVG again was quite friendly to him. Vasily II even visited NVG and is said to be met cordially by cheerful people.


@Forzaa
I listed them in the submission thread. No Novgorod - it's a CoT which has to stay european.
 
Last edited:
I thought only province RR stays forever till reduced. Normal RR disappears after a year, or so. Or am I wrong?
 
almoravid said:
I thought only province RR stays forever till reduced. Normal RR disappears after a year, or so. Or am I wrong?

You can specify the length of time RR will last by formulating it like so:
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 15 } (15% RR for 1 Year).

If you don't specify anything, 12 months is default RR length. All this info comes from
Havard's EU editing page , a very useful resource.
 
almoravid said:
I thought only province RR stays forever till reduced. Normal RR disappears after a year, or so. Or am I wrong?

Sorry. I guess not. I can't program for the life of me, I just had to meddle. In all the events I had seen there was a number of months, and there wasn't in yours, so in all my misguided wisdom I thought I could help out :rolleyes:
 
I have just been made aware that inheriting provinces will give BB even if you have a core on them. That COULD mean that Russia would still attract quite some BB when inheriting GH and Kazan (and later Sibir) - it is quite a large area after all. I guess it will still be less than normal ... but I must admit I was surprised to learn this.
 
Sikker said:
I have just been made aware that inheriting provinces will give BB even if you have a core on them. That COULD mean that Russia would still attract quite some BB when inheriting GH and Kazan (and later Sibir) - it is quite a large area after all. I guess it will still be less than normal ... but I must admit I was surprised to learn this.
You get .25 BB per province. It's pretty trivial.
 
doktarr said:
You get .25 BB per province. It's pretty trivial.

Yeah I guess so ... having thought about it's probably nothing. I was just suddenly a bit 'scared' it might mean the event would work opposite of what we wanted in this regard. But you're right - it's trivial.