AGC & EEP: Russia

[MichaelK]

To Worezcko:

In AGEEEP Poland could keep latin technology after 1567 if Lithuania does not exist in this time, so the event of Poland-Lithuania creation is not triggered. IMHO that how it should be. Actually, creation of the Poland-Lithuania was a mixed blessing for Poland. One of the results was that great landowners became stronger than the central power which together with the fact that king was elected each time, cause the decentralisation and at the end fall of the Polish state. May be Poland without the russian lands would be stronger (as strange as it may sounds).
Interesting that Poland in 15-16 centuries were one of the most tolerant societies in Europe from the religious point of view. People who were prosecuted for their religious views often found an asylim in Poland. Only in 17 century after Contrreformation situation became worse and that was one of the reason for the Ukranian uprising in 1648.
Hungary before being crushed by the Ottomans and incorporated by the Habsburgs was a normal European country, not more backward than Bohemia or Austria.
Worezsco, IMHO we could have more events for Poland which could change it course to became centralised European state. Actually, I think that the turning point was the death of Sigismund-August without a son, when shlaxta managed to get from Henryc so-called Henryc's articles which seriously weakened the central power. If Stefan Batori (one of the best Polish kings) was elected in 1572 (not in 1574) and did not die in 1586 (he was only 53) may be he would be able to put nobility on their place. Just may be ...

To Mormegil:

1.I am not disputing the fact that Moscow rulers (until Boris Godunov) were descendants of the Rurik. But it did not give them any rights to rule all the lands with the russian population. There were plenty of other descendants of the Rurik and Great Princes of Moscow were not even the most senior branch.
In fact Moscow Russia were completely different state in social and cultural sense than Kiev Rus. It is like comparing Norman England of 14 century with Anglo-Saxon England of 10 century. The territories are the same (I am not considering French lands, Ireland or Wales) people are mostly the same (number of normans was not very big) but the country is completely different.
2. Russia did not appoint their patriarch after the fall of Constantinopol. What happened was as follows:
a) In 1445 representative of the Greek Orthodox church signed a union with catholics. In exchange for support against the Turkey they agreed to recognise the Pope as a head of whole the Christian world.
b) When the head of the Russian church (mithropolit Isedore, who was greek), returned from the council and tried to impose the union, the Great Prince of Russia Vasily II simply arrested him and appointed his own protege as a mithropolit without permission from Constantinopol. Since Russian church at this time were not auto-governed (like churches in Jerusalem or Anthiohia) and subordinate to Constantinopol this decision were absolutely illegal. Only patriarch in Constantinopol could appoint or dismiss the Russian mithropolit.
c) Catholics were not able to help Constantinopol and it was taken by the Ottomans. As a results greeks changed their mind and disallow the union with catholic church. Because of this Moscow was able to get away with the dismissal of the Isedore.
d) In 1598 Russian managed to get a permission for Russian patriarch. That was a result of the growing power of Russia and a skilful diplomatic efforts.

3. As for blood of the Roman emperors, if we only knew who really was a father of some princesses ...

 

[unmerged(7924)]

To Mormegil:

1.I am not disputing the fact that Moscow rulers (until Boris Godunov) were descendants of the Rurik. But it did not give them any rights to rule all the lands with the russian population. There were plenty of other descendants of the Rurik and Great Princes of Moscow were not even the most senior branch.
In fact Moscow Russia were completely different state in social and cultural sense than Kiev Rus. It is like comparing Norman England of 14 century with Anglo-Saxon England of 10 century. The territories are the same (I am not considering French lands, Ireland or Wales) people are mostly the same (number of normans was not very big) but the country is completely different.

Yeah. Thought, I'm not sure why we are discussing this, I just threw in some stuff.
Indeed, it didn't give them the right to rule all the lands that the Kievan Rus did, but they ended up doing that, and there were few if any that objected. In Ukraine they did, but the Russian-Russians didn't.

2. Russia did not appoint their patriarch after the fall of Constantinopol. What happened was as follows:
a) In 1445 representative of the Greek Orthodox church signed a union with catholics. In exchange for support against the Turkey they agreed to recognise the Pope as a head of whole the Christian world.
b) When the head of the Russian church (mithropolit Isedore, who was greek), returned from the council and tried to impose the union, the Great Prince of Russia Vasily II simply arrested him and appointed his own protege as a mithropolit without permission from Constantinopol. Since Russian church at this time were not auto-governed (like churches in Jerusalem or Anthiohia) and subordinate to Constantinopol this decision were absolutely illegal. Only patriarch in Constantinopol could appoint or dismiss the Russian mithropolit.
c) Catholics were not able to help Constantinopol and it was taken by the Ottomans. As a results greeks changed their mind and disallow the union with catholic church. Because of this Moscow was able to get away with the dismissal of the Isedore.
d) In 1598 Russian managed to get a permission for Russian patriarch. That was a result of the growing power of Russia and a skilful diplomatic efforts.

Indeed, that's true when I come to think about it. Thought, I do tihnk he called himself Patriarch then, just that the Greek Patriarch didn't acknowledge it.
But d) is a bit wrong, actually they captured the Constantinoplian Patriarch when he visited Russia, and forced him to permit a Russian patriarch. But I guess that's what you meant by "skilful diplomatic efforts":rofl:

The point is, it broke loose from the Greek Church when they united with the catholic. Something the Russians refused to accept.

3. As for blood of the Roman emperors, if we only knew who really was a father of some princesses ...

Ehh... how do we know that any man was the father of any son? She was Zoe Palaelogi, and even if she had a 'false' father, no one knew. However, everyone could'va had a 'fake' father like that, so I don't really see your point.

 

[MichaelK]

1. Well, not only Ukraine fought against the Moscow. Novgorod fought very hard for the independence and was crushed. Btw, one of the reason why Moscow became so strong was that in 1305-1360 (approx) they were lapdogs of the Golden Horde and tatars helped them to crush other russian countries (e.g. Tver). Later, when Moscow became stronger and Golden Horde started to desintegrate the Princes of Moscow decided that they don't want to be tatar's vassals any more.
As for Moscow right to rule all the russian lands because they were descendants of the Rurik. You see nobody actually recognise such a rule. For eaxample, in France to be a descendant of the Saint Louis by male line meant very serious claim to the French throne. At the end of the Wars of Religion Henry Navarre was recognised as a king inspire being a protestant (he was asked to change a religion though) and not the most powerful lord in the country. But he was the closest descendant of the French kings via the male line and that gave him a legitimacy. But in Russia situation was different. There were a lot of people who could claim to be much closer to the oldest branch of the Great Princes of Kiev than Moscow rulers. So, Moscow claims were based on the brute force, not on the legal means. And if somebody (e.g. Lithuania ) could became stronger than Moscow, nothing could prevent them to claim the Crown of Russia.
2. By subtle diplomatic efforts I mean mostly bribery. Money talks, especially considering the difficult position of Constantinopol patriarch under the Ottoman power. And of course Moscow could use force when it want it.
3. I am not sure that Paleologs were any way related to the Roman emperors. In Byzantium as well as in Rome there were a lot of dynasty changes. But I could be mistaken.

 

[Archaalen]

The Paleologi gained power the same way any Roman dynasty did-by grabbing power from the old dynasty by force. They kicked out the Commenos (sp?) family, who fled to Trebizond and ruled there until they were crushed by the Ottomans. Descent only mattered as long as that family still ruled under Roman tradition.

 

[Tomas the Great]

I finnished playing Russia and have several notes:
The Nerchinsk event did not show up (non of three versions written).
During all period of the east south expantion (The plains, Sibiria, The Peter Ambitions) I battled with states having one province far distant and unreachable thus protecting my shield provinces. There were problem with so called rest states (Golden, Uzbeck Horde etc.) which I have to annex and my BB rised.
Sibir converted a lot of provinces from pagan to Muslim, making them difficult to conver (did not have Altai culture) and could not make them russians.
Russia gets a lot of manufactories in the game, but somehow unlucky placed. You get twice the luxury one in Moskow (or should I say Tula) and all other in places witch does not support it like weapons on fur or naval on metals. Maybe it would be good to give it on specific locations since there are dozens good for weapons and naval manufactories. I thing the ownership of the province can be checked as well as if there is one already.

BTW: it was really wheird game, Castilia annexed by Aragon, Bohemia diploannexed by Poland, which become ultimate Europian protestant superpower, Austria almost finished just to suddenly beat hungary in 1700 and Ottomans soon after. France totaly sleepy, English on Crimea, Portugese in Norway and terribly undercolonized world.

 

[unmerged(7924)]

The Paleologi gained power the same way any Roman dynasty did-by grabbing power from the old dynasty by force. They kicked out the Commenos (sp?) family, who fled to Trebizond and ruled there until they were crushed by the Ottomans. Descent only mattered as long as that family still ruled under Roman tradition.

Yeah, that's right.

Remember everyone that he was a descendant of the Roman Emperor, means Byzantine in EU2... but they didn't call it Byzantium until much later, to seperate it from the traditionally Roman Empire.

 

[unmerged(21338)]

If the Lithuanian State had crushed the Russian Principalities & begun marching into the Tartary they definitely would have tried to elevate themselves from Grand-Dukes to Kings or even Emperors. I am not sure if they would look to Byzantium/Rome though, but they might have. I will say from our 21st century point of view we tend to put nationalism in places where it was not evident at the time. Also, the West called it Byzantium in an attempt to strengthen the claims of the Holy Roman Empire. Not only that, but the Sultan too claimed to be Emperor of a New (Muslim) Roman Empire.

 

[unmerged(7924)]

If the Lithuanian State had crushed the Russian Principalities & begun marching into the Tartary they definitely would have tried to elevate themselves from Grand-Dukes to Kings or even Emperors. I am not sure if they would look to Byzantium/Rome though, but they might have. I will say from our 21st century point of view we tend to put nationalism in places where it was not evident at the time. Also, the West called it Byzantium in an attempt to strengthen the claims of the Holy Roman Empire. Not only that, but the Sultan too claimed to be Emperor of a New (Muslim) Roman Empire.

Yeah, but they called themselves the Roman Empire, the west can just go down under with their HRE, it's just a wannabe Roman Empire... It's false

 

[MichaelK]

Moscow rulers considered themselves as the descendants of the Roman Empire in the spiritual sense. Terminology "Moscow is the Third Rome" for them meant that they are the only true heirs of Byzantium and Byzantium is the only true heir of Rome. West Roman Empire, Empire of Charlemagne and HRE were not "right" empires. One of the Moscow basic claims was the claim to be a defender of the orthodox church (especially after turks took Constantinopol in 1453). Logically speaking, if Lithuania would take russian provinces and be an orthodox country it could pick up the Byzantine mantle as well.

 

[Archaalen]

Poland and much of Europe would be VERY angry with the Liths if they went the route of the schizmatic. They would likely have the same treatment as the real Russia got, isolation and disparagement. They might even have a "crusade" against them to keep it from happening (or reverse it).

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Also, the West called it Byzantium in an attempt to strengthen the claims of the Holy Roman Empire. Not only that, but the Sultan too claimed to be Emperor of a New (Muslim) Roman Empire.

As far as I know the terminology ("Byzantine Empire") doesn't really overlap with the existence of the Holy Roman Empire. I believe it became common usage in the 19th century.

 

[Tomas the Great]

May be I missed something, but this should be forum for creating/commenting events within AGC&EEP, right?

 

[unmerged(12680)]

As far as I know the terminology ("Byzantine Empire") doesn't really overlap with the existence of the Holy Roman Empire. I believe it became common usage in the 19th century.

Boy has there been some debates on the usage of that name...

May be I missed something, but this should be forum for creating/commenting events within AGC&EEP, right?

Yes.

 

[Khephren]

Came up with an idea reading a General Forum thread the other day. Basically, it concerns Europe's odd buddhist state. Instead of starting Kalmuk buddhist ( I know AGCEEP doesn't ), why not start it sunni and convert via event. Seems plausible.

#Kalmuks
event = {
       id = 7336
       random = no
       province = 467
       name = "Coming of the Kalmuks"     
       desc = "Following a particularly bloody offensive by the Chinese 

emperor, who suspected that they might ally themselves with the Russians
 
against him, the Kalmuks reached as far as the desert steppes of southeast

 Europe in the 17th century, and settled around their capital in Astrakhan on the Volga delta. A century later, growing disillusioned with increasing Russian

 interference, the Kalmyks decided to return to Jungaria in Xinjiang province

 in China) - a small number survived the hazardous journey home and are now 

called Oirats, while some others did not manage to cross the Volga to join

 the return to Asia."
        style = 3

        date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1666 }
	offset = 1200
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1700 }

        action_a = {
                      name = "Accept them"
		      command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
		      command = { type = provincereligion which = 467 value = buddhism }
                      command = { type = relation which = CHI value = -50 }
		      command = { type = population which = 467 value = 7000 }
		      command = { type = manpower value = 2 }
        }

        action_b = {
                      name = "No. Drive them away!"
		      command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
                      command = { type = relation which = CHI value = 50 }
		      command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 467 }
		      command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 467 }
		      command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 467 }
		      command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 467 }
		      command = { type = stability value = -2 }
                 }
}

Initial event I worked out, by no means perfect.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Playing Muscowy in the latets patch I noticed a couple of things.

1) Vladimir is currently a 200 pop country. Is this a typo or is this meant ot be?

2) Why do Kola and Karelia have natives, while Arkhangelsk (and Vladimir) not It only makes colonization easier and those provinces easier to upgrade as you get a popuylation of 500 for free. Same apllies BTW to the three Northern Scandinavian colonies.

3) Why is the tavalue in Arkhangelsk 3 and Kola 4 while Karelia 1. As far as I can see all are barren waste lands with little value. The only value of the first two was that in eventually Russia used them as ports to import stuff in the summer, something that should be done via events not at the start of the scenario.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I like that event Khephren. You called them both Kalmuks and Kalmyks. I don't think the DP sliders should be affected at all. I don't think that they had that profound impact on their countries and it might make a country get DP lisders we do not want. What is the manpower of the province when they arrive? Where they commonly used as soldiers, like the kossacks or tartars since the manpower is raised?

I have no idea about Vladimir. I think all those natives could be removed. They never joined the cities being established nor where there ever any big organised rebellions. I think Kola tax 2 and Archangelsk 1 would be good.

 

[unmerged(12544)]

I might have found the reason, why the Russia AI always fails to get to Siberia.

#Russian claims on the Steppes#
event = { id = 40020
trigger = {
owned = { province = 279 data = -1}
owned = { province = 271 data = -1}
owned = { province = 272 data = -1}
owned = { province = 268 data = -1}
owned = { province = 446 data = -1}
owned = { province = 452 data = -1}
owned = { province = 447 data = -1}
owned = { province = 457 data = -1}
owned = { province = 458 data = -1}
owned = { province = 453 data = -1}
owned = { province = 454 data = -1}
}

That is simply too hard for the AI to fullfill and so they never get the shields. Even if only one province is missing, the event won't fire.
Personnally, I would prefer no trigger for 40018, 40019, 40020, 40021. Is there any special reason, why the triggers were implemented? TUR gets its shields simply by date without any trigger.

 

[unmerged(13006)]

I might have found the reason, why the Russia AI always fails to get to Siberia.

#Russian claims on the Steppes#
event = { id = 40020
trigger = {
owned = { province = 279 data = -1}
owned = { province = 271 data = -1}
owned = { province = 272 data = -1}
owned = { province = 268 data = -1}
owned = { province = 446 data = -1}
owned = { province = 452 data = -1}
owned = { province = 447 data = -1}
owned = { province = 457 data = -1}
owned = { province = 458 data = -1}
owned = { province = 453 data = -1}
owned = { province = 454 data = -1}
}

That is simply too hard for the AI to fullfill and so they never get the shields. Even if only one province is missing, the event won't fire.
Personnally, I would prefer no trigger for 40018, 40019, 40020, 40021. Is there any special reason, why the triggers were implemented? TUR gets its shields simply by date without any trigger.

You are right! These triggers are just impossible to fulfill for our "iron-mind friend" - then Russia has never got a chance to move eastward!

Then - this is a copy om my another post in "Golden Horde" tread:
"Excuse me for bothering... but I'm sure - Russia became successful successors of Golden Horde posessions (I'm not sure if Russian Armies fought any Crimean or any other Khanates army for Orenburg or Emba region . Then I'd suggest to bind Russian "claim for steppes" event to rather simple trigger - owning Kazan & Astrakhan for Muscovy/Russia simultaneously.
By the way - Russia hadn't to get just shields on steppes. She just had to inherit all Golden Horde land with lock, stock & barrels with notable exception of Crimea Khanate territory. In other case you'd never get Russia advance into Siberian corridor at all !

Sincerely yurs Bash.

P.S. Yep, try to just understand one simple truth - most strong, successful & "bad-ass" inheritant of Golden Horde was Muscovy Principality - not Kazan, Crimea & etc. If you'd see problem & Russian history from this angle - you'd realize very many reasons & complications of historical process in Eastern Europe."

Then - just try to check ANY historical source for finding any trace of Russian fight for ANY of her eastern lands - except versus Kazan, Astrakhan, Crimea & Sibir khanates - especially to east from line "Kazan-Astrakhan" - i.e. definitely "core lands" of Golden Horde (except clash in Siberia with Sibir Khan Kuchum - taklng in mind one important issue - Siberian Khanate WASN't part of Golden Horde, but its rival!).
Pls, put your finger to ANY clash between Muscovy/Russia and Khazak or Uzbek Hordes - taking in notice very simple thing - Khan Uzbek was blood uncle to First Great Prince of Muscovy - Ivan I Kalita!

P.S. (Add on edition) If you like to see in these things more close, you'll find very interesting thing: first official Hymn of Russian Empire written by Prince Lvov in 30s of XIX century ("Bozhe, Zara, Khrani!" - "God, Save the King") had words chalked & translated from English source (God, save the King), but according to Russian Emperor Nicholas I wish: "It need to have "as ancient as possible native-born melody", which need to differ from anything Polish". Ughm...
According to Count Benckendorff (Head of Russian Secret Service of that times) memories there were collected all possible musical sources of "ancient times" & couple of adjutantes of Benckendorff tried to "convert them" into something "listenable".
Result was present to Czar Nicholas, which was most impressed by melody - which became Russian Hymn later - with words: "It's most exalting and Empire-sounding music of my Life! It's - magnificent!" (Count von Benckendorff divulged - he was crying himself - under this music first impression as well as most part of Nicholas cabinet of Ministers.)
One small thing - czar asked name of musical source after hearing & was visibly shocked to know - its name was: "Greating for exalting on Great Princedom of Prince of Muscovy Ivan Daniilovich (e.g. Ivan I Kalita) from his Uncle (bla-bla-bla of titels) Khan Uzbekh" (around 1340 A.D.).
According to Benckendorff memories - Czar Nicholas laughed after that: "Then we're impressed by Horde' melody - well, these guys made one Great Empire indeed! I like it. Of course, don't cite my words on public..."

Do you see all possible implications of this story?

By the way - this thing really stirred some minds later - then in 30s of XXs century by creating Hymn of Sovyet Union authors knew - where to watch for insights (initial musical material was really big - around 1,5-2 hours of playing - exact temp of it, alas, - is unknown), because new Leader Josef Stalin asked - "something like old hymn by its emotional influence".
Well, it means - present Russian Empire, present Soviet Union & modern Russia hymns have the same Horde' musical source & awake the same feelings (& this music stirs them indeed!) - deep in our (Russian) souls - as ceremonial music of Mongol/Golden Horde times - did it to souls of some long forgotten Steppe warriors...

Really weird thing - isn't it?

Sincerely

 

[unmerged(9404)]

I might have found the reason, why the Russia AI always fails to get to Siberia.

#Russian claims on the Steppes#
event = { id = 40020
trigger = {
owned = { province = 279 data = -1}
owned = { province = 271 data = -1}
owned = { province = 272 data = -1}
owned = { province = 268 data = -1}
owned = { province = 446 data = -1}
owned = { province = 452 data = -1}
owned = { province = 447 data = -1}
owned = { province = 457 data = -1}
owned = { province = 458 data = -1}
owned = { province = 453 data = -1}
owned = { province = 454 data = -1}
}

That is simply too hard for the AI to fullfill and so they never get the shields. Even if only one province is missing, the event won't fire.
Personnally, I would prefer no trigger for 40018, 40019, 40020, 40021. Is there any special reason, why the triggers were implemented? TUR gets its shields simply by date without any trigger.

This might have been done for the player. As a player it's quite easy to get all the original core provinces in less than 0 years, which would mean you have some 50 years waiting for the next set of cores. Maybe an ai only event should be added that adds the core at certain dates (the paradox dates for instance)

 

[Dawkins]

Yes, the triggers need complete rethinking because at the moment I never see the AI get the "russia claims the stepps" shields, and unless the player has looked at the event file he probably wont trigger the extra shields either.