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Jayavarman

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I am wondering if AGC-EEP will continue to be a mod for vanilla EU2 with agung pasha just converting it for MyMAP, or will it embrace MyMAP (or another new map) and devote its attentions there, ie an AGC-EEP 2.0?
 

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I know I'd like to, though I know other HCers have concerns.
 

Jayavarman

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Precisely. I would like to hear those concerns and see what the consensus is.
I believe mapmaking has opened a new chapter for EU2 that we may explore during the long wait for a far off EU3, and that we should board ship while there is momentum.
 

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Garbon said:
There are many (largely cosmetic) changes to MyMap that I would like to see before adopting a new map.

Why not list them?
 

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Province borders in Southeastern Europe need re-shaping. As it stands, many of the provinces look hideous. (too many elonganted thin provinces)

Additionally, I'm not a fan of this more realistic rocky border look. It needs softening to be closer to the original EU2 look.

Also, we need a unified font and not different ones for the different pieces that were assembled.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Same point of view as Garbon. As I stated before, I just want to add there is a way between total lack of details for some areas in original map and a very detailed but not so aesthetic map because of EUII engine drawing methods.

My personal concerns are for South America with the 25° rotation (and I know why this was done) but other solutions for Caraibes and sea zones between Africa and Brazil haven't been exposed (maybe MKJ explored them but there wasn't real discussion about them or did I miss something?).

I'd also like to see the minimap more centered on Europe (and yes I know what it means for IdGrids):
1) for gameplay reason => centering map by clicking in the minimap between Europe and America across Atlantic Ocean won't be so easy, not to mention South America.
2) for geopolitical vision of the World in the game itself. EDIT: I would say it even if I wasn't European, but because I'm European, my vision is the same as the one the game should provide.
I don't ask for Europe to be right in the middle, but just move idGrids eastwards (to the right) until good compromise and without ruining actual Europe provinces setup.

Finally, iirc but not very sure because I didn't had time to try MyMap, Bermudas and St Helena islands are not included in this map. Because of naval attrition for players, they were very usefull, strategically speaking, in my games if not Portugal nor Spain. Plus they aren't part of ToT.
 
Last edited:

Jayavarman

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YodaMaster said:
Finally, iirc but not very sure because I didn't had time to try MyMap, Bermudas and St Helena islands are not included in this map. Because of naval attrition for players, they were very usefull, strategically speaking, in my games if not Portugal nor Spain. Plus they aren't part of ToT.
Both islands are included. :)
 

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I'm far behind the times when it comes to this issue; there have been so many threads, so many posts that it becomes hard to keep up with anything, and much of it is too technical for me.

I have two worries about the new maps - perhaps these worries have already been addressed?

(1) Historical outcomes

While in many cases we are adding provinces to countries in order to give them a better chance of surviving historically (e.g. Portugal), I wonder what this will do to countries that are supposed to expand rapidly, such as the Ottoman Empire, which already performs poorly in many games. A new map will mean re-examining many setups and events in order to fine-tune historical outcomes. I expect the first (several) map(s) to be a step backwards in historical accuracy, even though the DETAIL will be much greater. On the other hand, perhaps I'm being a pessmist. :confused:

(2) Province IDs and events

Many new provinces will be added to the game - this will require a massive amount of coding in the thousands of events we already have, not to mention revolter files, country setups, et cetera. It will be very easy to miss one or two provinces here and there, and things will get very confused. It will certainly mean a huge amount of work for coders just to 'stand still', let alone code new events.

Since it's impractical to add a few provinces at a time, these problems are never going to go away, so I'm in favor of adopting a new map. It will mean a lot of work, a lot of errors and a lot of time - but it will reap rewards eventually.
 

Jayavarman

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@dharper

1. Agreed. Playtests need to be made with MyMAP to see how the AI handles the new map. Though first, agung pasha needs help filling in the province.csv and .inc files. I found some countries that have their own territories in TI. :embarrassed:
I wonder how the following are affected:
- war, including BB, annexation, etc.
- colonization, incl. exploration, etc.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Phillip V said:
Both islands are included. :)
Great

To dharper: totally agreed, but maybe not so pessimist

Anyway, the map must match exactly what we want before...
 
Last edited:

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I'm in favor of the new map, though I agree on the cosmetic changes stated by Garbon. I for one don't feel the need to have the minimap centered on Europe, as this will mean a more limited IDgrid. I think that a center change is a very small price to pay to increase the number of possible provinces in Europe.
 

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Sute]{h said:
I think that a center change is a very small price to pay to increase the number of possible provinces in Europe.

I'm ok with sute]{h here,
centered europa is really a very minor cosmetic problem while the number of province in europa is a real gameplay problem...

And i like the new "rocky" coast as it make the map less cartoonish.

Could we have sea names on the map ? like in EU1 ?
 

unmerged(29318)

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please make sticky rules for new provs per region area. did't lake doing flip flop thing.
is there any chance for AGCEEP Asian Chapthers??? :D
Boring to see argument "this is Europa Universalis anyway...just make your own mods bla..bla...bla.."
And why some nation with rich local and regional history but lack of internet or english sources will judje become unimportant or statelet nation :( ie in Indonesia only Banten and makassar that vanish from the world in EU2 time frame by colonial power. many thing happen here. like every sultan always ask help from Ottoman if they get trouble with europan country. last interfre was in 1913 Turks send large ammo and gun to help minangkabau rebellion .
and local admiral who won in naval battle got labeled as pirates. I read some of this hulubalang(admiral) diary in museum they only attack europan warships but just reported as pirates to their enemy motherland
 
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TheBagelmeister

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Well, with the new map, I do plan on continuing to compile the province IDs to make changing coding easier. Not to mention that, but for any projects I plan on working on, they'll be already by set-up for the new map.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Captain Frakas said:
I'm ok with sute]{h here,
centered europa is really a very minor cosmetic problem while the number of province in europa is a real gameplay problem...

And i like the new "rocky" coast as it make the map less cartoonish.

Could we have sea names on the map ? like in EU1 ?
Good idea for sea names.
Once again for the minimap... Why not both provinces in Europe and minimap? Are we 100% sure it is impossible?
It is not only cosmetic issue.

For map itself: yes, far less cartoonish than vanilla but not so "rocky", just smoothed a little (coasts and borders).

agung pasha said:
is there any chance for AGCEEP Asian Chapthers??? :D
Yes. Be patient :) A bargain? :D
 

unmerged(40707)

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agung pasha said:
And why some nation with rich local and regional history but lack of internet or english sources will judje become unimportant or statelet nation :( ie in Indonesia only Banten and makassar that vanish from the world in EU2 time frame by colonial power. many thing happen here. like every sultan always ask help from Ottoman if they get trouble with europan country. last interfre was in 1913 Turks send large ammo and gun to help minangkabau rebellion .
and local admiral who won in naval battle got labeled as pirates. I read some of this hulubalang(admiral) diary in museum they only attack europan warships but just reported as pirates to their enemy motherland
You seems to be well informed. Propose... And we could make events with materials.
 

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I think we should aim for a new map, even if it will take a lot of time and hard work. The challenge is to make it an improvement over the old map, not only for those that wants to see more areas outside Europe, and an historically better setup, but for those that likes to play the game without knowing too much about history and geography. If we end up with a map poorly fitted to the game it's done for, and it will need fixing events to run smoothly, then we have failed.

My main concerns ara the reduction of sea zones that will make the map uninteresting for MP, and a the great increase of provinces in south east Europe where OE will have to expand with BB and stability/research rules that we cannot change. Detailed splitting up of European provinces risk making some new areas so poor that a well-informed player knows he's better without them.
Adding names for the sea zones woud be great, and I think we should keep the current model, with English all over.

Demands have been raised for rules set by AGCEEP for what provinces to be included. I like rules generally, but I don't think it's possible to make any in this case. There are too many things to take into account. What I do think we can do, and should do, is to use a standard for names. There was a thread for it, and I think there was a general consensus to use local names. More elaboration is needed since many areas were held by several nations, and had different names over time.
 

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I'd just like to point out that the number of states that the Ottomans have to conquer has not changed, and as they have cores on their conquests they will gain no additional BB. In fact, their badboy to conquest ratio will go DOWN because they can do more conquest with fewer annexations. Conquering Bosnia and Serbia for instance, in vanilla that means 3 provinces for 6 badboy. Now it's 9 provinces for 6 badboy.

What *will* be much more difficult is conquering the Ottoman Empire and/or driving them out of Europe.

When I made the map for the Balkans, gameplay concerns were big. As it is now, the Ottomans have too few provinces in the beginning of the game, and a few lucky breaks for the Byzantines or Wallachians can mean the Ottomans never get off the ground so to speak.
 
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Norrefeldt

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Aug 1, 2001
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Thats true.
But unless we raise the tax value ahistorically high in those areas, their religion and high number makes it foolish to take them. Stability and research costs will be too high. Of course we can fix this by making events, but IMO that's fixing an error we have introduced, and only make further damage. If poor areas are divided into too many provinces, we force the players to avoid them to effectively build their countries. Even with our good intentions we make the game less historical, in all sense but the map. I think this is a great risk in europe. Outside Europe it's not a problem, it's good if not all places are colonised, and many non-European states had too few provinces before.

Besides, I don't think we should use roman names for provinces that were Ottoman for 9% of the game, or in some cases 100%. But that's nitpicking on a great work.

EDIT: I see some merging of province have already been done. Perhaps the problem with too many SE european provinces is mostly fixed. Still, modern day Greece has 13 provinces, more than England. Too keep the balance we have to make them all dirt poor, and who will want to own them after that. The need for naval bases isn't there, since there are so few sea zones.

The same thing goes for the newly divided Sardinia. It was tax four, now each of the two province will have tax two. Who wants it? The north and south never had seperate owners.
 
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