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AGC/EEP Poland-Lithuania thread

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AGC/EEP PL thread

First thing is map and setup. There is a list of changes that should be disscussed. Things on the list are considered agreed so oppose or they will be submitted once the whole setup will be reviewed.

1. Province Danzig will start with polish culture.

2. Poland starts with polish and ruthenian cultures.

3. Start DP settings for Poland:

Aristocracy 6.
Centralization 5.
Innovativeness 6 (Poland starts with latin group now. So it was lowered).
Mercantilism 7.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 5.
Serfdom 6.

4. Start DP settings for Lithuania:

Aristocracy 8.
Centralization 2.
Innovativeness 4.
Mercantilism 6.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 4.
Serfdom 7.

5. Capital of Wielkopolska is now Piotrkow Trybunalski.

6. Capital of Podolia is now Kamieniec Podolski.

7. Capital of Krzemienczuk is now Kudak.

8. Capital of Poltava is now Lubny.

9. Capital of Belgorod is now Novgorod Siewierski.

10. Capital of Polotsk is now Polotsk.

11. Capital of Kurland is now Mittau.

12. Capital of Latvia is now Riga (CoT will be located here).

13. Capital of Kursk is now Briansk.

14. Capital of Tula is now Viazma.

15. Capital of Belarus is now Swieciany.

16. Posen, Masovia, Podlasia are plains now.

17. Smolensk is now forest.

18. Podolia and Ukraine base tax is 12 now, manpower is 8.

19. Posen and Wielkopolska base tax set at 10. Manpower without changes.

20. Smolensk base tax is now 6.

21. Posen now produces goods.

22. Malopolska now produces salt.

23. Shield on province 281 for Lithuania and then PL.

24. Province 281 to Lithuania at the start.

25. Poland will lose shield on Pommerania. It can retake shields on two ways - ahistorical option in UoL event and when control some of these provinces up to 1569.

26. Provinces Galizien (Lwow) and Podolia will start orthodox/ruthenian.

27. Lithuania starts with baltic and ruthenian cultures.

28. Poland, Lithuania and PL are given more peaceful ai (15 or even less).

29. There's a list of polish leaders made by Zamojski. If no one has a zeal to create more enhanced list, then this list will be included.

31. Lithuania starts as a vassal of Poland. This will be break by events in 1429 or 1432 (probably earlier by ai).

32. Starting relations between TO, LO on one side and Poland, Lithuania on the other side

set at +50 in every combination.

33. Poland - Brandenburg relations set at +50.

34. Krzemienczuk and Jedisan to GH at the start.

35. Krzemienczuk sunni/tatar (mongol).

36. Jedisan sunni/turkish (mongol).

38. Province Volynia stands for historical Pripet now.
Terrain swamps. Capital Pinsk. Ruthenian/orthodox. Base tax 4. Manpower 2. Goods - naval supplies.

39. Lithuanian culture removed. Province Lithuania will be given baltic (that culture is simulating all baltic cultures just like scandinavian is simulating swedish, danish, norvegian), all other provinces with lithuanian culture will change to ruthenian.

40. Lithuania is losing shield on Jedisan (but not Krzemienczuk).

41. Latvia changes its culture to ugric.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by vilkouak
No problem :). My tendency for typing as short as possible is widely known.
Click to expand...
Just makes it a bit easier to spot in the topic lis this way.

I'll remove my first post there, so you'll have the two first posts to update with status etc...
 
Re: AGC/EEP PL thread

Originally posted by vilkouak
1. Province Danzig will start with polish culture.
Click to expand...
Will there be events to change the culture to german?

16. Posen, Masovia, Podlasia are plains now.

17. Smolensk is now forest.

18. Podolia and Ukraine base tax is 12 now, manpower is 8.

19. Posen and Wielkopolska base tax set at 10. Manpower without changes.

20. Smolensk base tax is now 6.

21. Posen now produces goods.

22. Malopolska now produces salt.

23. Shield on province 281 for Lithuania and then PL.

24. Province 281 to Lithuania at the start.

35. Krzemienczuk sunni/tatar (mongol).

36. Jedisan sunni/turkish (mongol).

38. Province Volynia stands for historical Pripet now.
Terrain swamps. Capital Pinsk. Ruthenian/orthodox. Base tax 4. Manpower 2. Goods - naval supplies.
Click to expand...
What was it before in all these cases? (for comparison)

2. Poland starts with polish and ruthenian cultures.

27. Lithuania starts with baltic and ruthenian cultures.
Click to expand...
Won't the ruthenian culture for Poland and Lithuania give them a very easy time to convert those province (ahistorical) to catholic?
 
Re: Re: AGC/EEP PL thread

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
Originally posted by vilkouak
Won't the ruthenian culture for Poland and Lithuania give them a very easy time to convert those province (ahistorical) to catholic?
Click to expand...

As a vociferous fellow member of the no Ruthenian for Poland lobby I wanted to point out that Poland already gets Ruthenian in both the EEP and the AGC. Like you I hadn't noticed, so I think the answer is they won't have too easy a time converting those provinces.
 
Re: Re: Re: AGC/EEP PL thread

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
As a vociferous fellow member of the no Ruthenian for Poland lobby I wanted to point out that Poland already gets Ruthenian in both the EEP and the AGC. Like you I hadn't noticed, so I think the answer is they won't have too easy a time converting those provinces.
Click to expand...

ok question answered :)
 
Re: Re: AGC/EEP PL thread

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
Originally posted by vilkouak

Will there be events to change the culture to german?


What was it before in all these cases? (for comparison)


Won't the ruthenian culture for Poland and Lithuania give them a very easy time to convert those province (ahistorical) to catholic?
Click to expand...

Yes, the events are posted on Northern European thread but there are ussually an older version than accepted in AGC. Basically Prussia/Brandenburg has four chances to turn culture in Danzig to german, Poland has another two chances about changing it back. All depends on the ownership of the province and time (Poland after UoL event has no chances to revert culture).

Original in EU II were (typing using memory - there might be ommisions. Some of the changes are included in EEP too):

16. Posen, Masovia, Podlasia were forest (?).

17. Smolensk was plains.

18. Podolia and Ukraine - base tax and manpower for Ukraine was greater while for Podolia lower. We agreed that Podolia will stand for historical Podolia, Volhynia and central Ukraine (Zytomierz), thus made Podolia province richer and Ukraine poorer.

19. Posen and Wielkopolska base tax is now even higher than 10 in 1.07. Manpower too.

20. Smolensk base tax was 5.

21. Posen produced salt.

22. Malopolska produced goods.

23. No shield on 281 for Lithuania and Poland.

24. Province 281 to TO at the start.

35. Krzemienczuk ruthenian/orthodox.

36. Jedisan ruthenian/orthodox.

38. Province Volynia standed for some unknown area. Generally it was richer, produced wool and had greater manpower.

Only danger in giving ruthenian culture for Poland and Lithuania is that they may be overpowered in comparison to their neighbours. Lithuania starts with only too catholic provinces and is ableto convert 3-6 another up to UoL event if doing well at war.
Poland is reluctant to convert what seems strange. They sometimes make conversions of protestants in Posen but rarely try to convert any orthodox provinces. It may be cause by thelack of money. These observations are from AGC and 1.07_4th_May.
 
As I see, we start from the beginning, so I`ve got some little disturbing propositions:
3. Start DP settings for Poland:
Aristocracy 6.
Centralization 5.
Innovativeness 6 (Poland starts with latin group now. So it was lowered).
Mercantilism 7.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 5.
Serfdom 6.
Click to expand...
Because of tech group Poland could now start IMHO with 4 Innovativeness and become progressively more innovative with Sejm and decentralization related events like Nihil novi, Nieszawa Privileges, 1st National Diet, Executioners movement, etc. Innovativeness on 4 just gives more space for these things.
4. Start DP settings for Lithuania:
Aristocracy 8.
Centralization 2.
Innovativeness 4.
Mercantilism 6.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 4.
Serfdom 7.
Click to expand...
I propose higher offensiveness, like 8 - 9. I don`t want fortresses in GD, altough it`s armies should be effective despite imminent low tech level.
12. Capital of Latvia is now Riga (CoT will be located here).
Click to expand...
I hope this one will disappear with the creation of CoT in Danzig.
20. Smolensk base tax is now 6.
Click to expand...
For me it could be even 8. It would be nice if Smolensk became as important province, as it was.

Dniepr`s case:
Maybe it would be more convenient if we imagine that Dniepr is one more row of provs to the east, i.e: Dniepr starts on the border between Smolensk and Mozyr prov., then it flows southwards, along eastern border of Mozyr (with capital in Minsk), Czernihow (Wolyn in this case, capital in Luck), Ukraine (on the right side of Dniepr this time) and Jedisan (as before). IMHO it makes map much more historically accurate, than strange combination with Podolia representing half of Ukraine, with 12 tax value.
32. Starting relations between TO, LO on one side and Poland, Lithuania on the other side set at +50 in every combination.
Click to expand...
Why?:confused:

Lithuanian culture:
Basically I`m against understanding culture as ethinicity. I rather like to see it as an accustomed way of ruling, imposing power and in general treatment of subjects. This includes culture and specific customs of local hierarchy, as well as acceptance to this things from the subjects. All in all I see the sense for lithuanian culture which would indicate the culture developed in Grand Duchy. This is the thing which made lithuanain nobles proudly say that they are Lithuanians, altough they mostly spoke ruthenian or polish. Ruthenian culture would be left for Ukraine, as originally.

Masovia:
I suggest tax value 6 in 1419 for Masovia, what would be then pumped up by events. IIRC this was agreed on in AGC.
 
Originally posted by Woreczko
Masovia:
I suggest tax value 6 in 1419 for Masovia, what would be then pumped up by events. IIRC this was agreed on in AGC.
Click to expand...

But, if this project chooses to adopt an independent Masovia that might be harmful.
 
Originally posted by Woreczko

Lithuanian culture:
Basically I`m against understanding culture as ethinicity. I rather like to see it as an accustomed way of ruling, imposing power and in general treatment of subjects. This includes culture and specific customs of local hierarchy, as well as acceptance to this things from the subjects. All in all I see the sense for lithuanian culture which would indicate the culture developed in Grand Duchy. This is the thing which made lithuanain nobles proudly say that they are Lithuanians, altough they mostly spoke ruthenian or polish. Ruthenian culture would be left for Ukraine, as originally.
Click to expand...

I buy this line of argument. I'm also in favour of low innovativeness for Poland, increasing until they are very innovative and in the orthodox tech group. Works for me.

Don't like the Dneiper though. I mean the river is on the map, seems like that's where it should be. I know the map is deficient, but...
 
Innovativeness 4 for the start? I have nothing against. It may go higher with events.

Polish army was not so offensive on early 15th cen. I can use very the same argument about leaving this for events as in innovativeness case.

Masovia was poor and 6 may be a good option.

CoT in Riga should disappear while CoT in Danzig created, so events need tweaking.

There is many possible combinationsabout Dniepr and allocations of the provinces but none is free of flaws. Whereto put Chernigov if Volhynia is placed on the left bank of Dniepr? It gives us space for Polesie (and Prypet Marshes) that;s true. Ukraine moved on right bank gives place for Chrernigov but in fact eliminates Podolia. Moreover "new" Ukraine would be quite rich, say 16-18 base tax. If you want, then prepare the map and we can always make a vote about it.

Relations were made higher to avoid initial wars between the sides that usually ended with Prussia ceased to exist long before 16th cen. Of course it is ahistorical.

The existing compromise with lithuanian culture in these areas that represents future Grand Duchy in PL si working but I want Poland to lose ruthenian culture in the moment of arising of Ukraine somewhere in 1596-1648. As it is justified for many of ruthenian provinces...

Hmm, Galizien would turn Polish then in "Introduction of Polish law" event if Ukraine would be in nowadays Podolia...

Definitely make the map with your propositions and we will see.
 
But what will it include?
 
Originally posted by Garbon
But, if this project chooses to adopt an independent Masovia that might be harmful.
Click to expand...
Masovia was no superpower so it`s performance is not crucial for game balance...
According to AGC events, Masovia would get + to tax with event covering development of grain export via Danzig, then with inheritance/Bona event and then with moving capital to Warsaw. However we should take into consideration the fact, that Masovia won`t be hit by (possible) tax reducing events when determining the exact figures.
 
Originally posted by vilkouak
Polish army was not so offensive on early 15th cen. I can use very the same argument about leaving this for events as in innovativeness case.
Click to expand...
I meant lithuanian military but I have no zeal to intensively fight for it anyway.

Relations were made higher to avoid initial wars between the sides that usually ended with Prussia ceased to exist long before 16th cen. Of course it is ahistorical.
Click to expand...
I tried to solve this problem by giving Orders 2 land tech in 1419 and lvl.2 fortresses and moving border of "harsh winter provs" westwards, so that everything east of Vistula, including all baltic provs was in this region. Lvl.2 forts with port (Neither Poland, nor Lithuania should have ships early) and winter are quite hard to bite. It wasn`t tested extensively however.
The existing compromise with lithuanian culture in these areas that represents future Grand Duchy in PL si working but I want Poland to lose ruthenian culture in the moment of arising of Ukraine somewhere in 1596-1648. As it is justified for many of ruthenian provinces...
Click to expand...
PL shouldn`t IMHO lost manpower from GD provs, if it`s the problem (my english is really awful). The only problem I see is Galizien, but making it polish may be the solution although some ppl may feel offended.

The map:
- Lithuania, Belorus, Polock, Smolensk - as you`ve posted.
- Mozyr stands for nowadays north - eastern part of Belarus, capital in Minsk.
- Volhynia stands for Pripet region, capital in Brzesc
- Czernihow stands for Volyn, capital in Luck
- Ukraine for right sided, central Ukraine, capital in Kiev
- Galizien for Red Ruthenia, capital in Lwow
- Podolia for Podolia and Braclaw region, capital in Kamieniec Podolski
- Poltava for left sided Ukraine, capital in Lubny
- Belgorod; it has to represent Czernihow and Siewiersk regions.

I`m not sure however if this setup agrees well with more eastern regions, I`ll have to check.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Woreczko
I meant lithuanian military but I have no zeal to intensively fight for it anyway.


I tried to solve this problem by giving Orders 2 land tech in 1419 and lvl.2 fortresses and moving border of "harsh winter provs" westwards, so that everything east of Vistula, including all baltic provs was in this region. Lvl.2 forts with port (Neither Poland, nor Lithuania should have ships early) and winter are quite hard to bite. It wasn`t tested extensively however.

PL shouldn`t IMHO lost manpower from GD provs, if it`s the problem (my english is really awful). The only problem I see is Galizien, but making it polish may be the solution although some ppl may feel offended.

The map:
- Lithuania, Belorus, Polock, Smolensk - as you`ve posted.
- Mozyr stands for nowadays north - eastern part of Belarus, capital in Minsk.
- Volhynia stands for Pripet region, capital in Brzesc
- Czernihow stands for Volyn, capital in Luck
- Ukraine for right sided, central Ukraine, capital in Kiev
- Galizien for Red Ruthenia, capital in Lwow
- Podolia for Podolia and Braclaw region, capital in Kamieniec Podolski
- Poltava for left sided Ukraine, capital in Lubny
- Belgorod; it has to represent Czernihow and Siewiersk regions.

I`m not sure however if this setup agrees well with more eastern regions, I`ll have to check.
Click to expand...

The problem is not with Poland having too easy time but with wars at all. Usually it ends with Prussia or Poland being devastated so I want to avoid it on early part of the game to let 13 Year's War events work.

I think that Poland may easily lose ruthenian (or ukrainian) culture in on early 17th cen as the cut off of manpower is now 1.0 (2.0 previously). Galizien may change culture for Polish while religion remain orthodox. In 1.07 Prussia starts with lev.2 fortresses and it only produces abit longer war.

Proposed setup means that Belgorod will change culture into ruthenian.
I would choose another city instead of minsk which was rather unimportant up to the half of 18th cen.

What other think about Smolensk? Is 6 base tax enough or should be raised a bit (to 8 at max).
 
Originally posted by Woreczko
Lithuanian culture:
Basically I`m against understanding culture as ethinicity. I rather like to see it as an accustomed way of ruling, imposing power and in general treatment of subjects. This includes culture and specific customs of local hierarchy, as well as acceptance to this things from the subjects. All in all I see the sense for lithuanian culture which would indicate the culture developed in Grand Duchy. This is the thing which made lithuanain nobles proudly say that they are Lithuanians, altough they mostly spoke ruthenian or polish. Ruthenian culture would be left for Ukraine, as originally.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. What you are referring to is IMO the concept of nationalism in EU2, and I have strong doubts whether such a thing was really that important in the EU2 period. If culture represented allegiance to one state or customs in ruling, why not make all of Finland Scandinavian, all of Hungary Magyar, create a Burgundian or Lotharingian culture for the area between France and Germany and turn most of the OE Turkish? I don't buy that.
 
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