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maybe swap around catholic and buddhist(or pagan, confucianism) religion (ie.. you call catholic buddhism and buddhism catholicism and give the correct bonuses) now all buddhist countries will have a CB.. but they probably wont even KNOW italy (or be too far away to cause distress)

i know.. lots of work but it *might* do the trick
 
Originally posted by Jester
There is no way to get rid of the hard coded fact that anyone controlling Rome that does not have the PAP tag will have a permanent CB on it from all Catholic countries.

And it shouldn't be removed even if it could be IMHO. Italy decided to annex Rome in 1870 during the Franco-Prussian War, in which France had redrawn their troops from Rome - troops they had stationed there exactly to prevent such an invasion. In fact, Italy had to promise not to annex Rome in order to gain France's support for the unification. I do belivieve that most of the cathloic world got really pissed at Italy for annexing Rome, but noone could in reality do anything about it. France was inshit to their knees because of Prussia, Austria had been beaten few years before by Prussia and Italy and there were no other significant catholic powers left.

My point is, that if France was willing to protect the Pope in 1870 - and propably longer, if it hadn't been for the war - then I don't think it is wrong to have the eternal cb thing on Rome in the EU2 period, as it is a symbol of the Pope's importance to the catholic world.
 
Originally posted by ForzaA
maybe swap around catholic and buddhist(or pagan, confucianism) religion (ie.. you call catholic buddhism and buddhism catholicism and give the correct bonuses) now all buddhist countries will have a CB.. but they probably wont even KNOW italy (or be too far away to cause distress)

i know.. lots of work but it *might* do the trick

Seems like a heck of a lot of trouble for something that shouldn't happen anyway. Catholics should have a CB on anyone who owns Rome, particularly if it's Italy. It's sensible, and I don't understand the justification for trying to get rid of it.
 
Originally posted by ForzaA
maybe swap around catholic and buddhist(or pagan, confucianism) religion (ie.. you call catholic buddhism and buddhism catholicism and give the correct bonuses) now all buddhist countries will have a CB.. but they probably wont even KNOW italy (or be too far away to cause distress)

i know.. lots of work but it *might* do the trick

Terrible idea IMHO!:eek:

It would mean that catholic nations can adjust releations to hindu and confusianism, but not to other christian religions - and the other christians would vice versa not be able to adjust relations to catholics. And there's propably other reasons why this wouldn't work well, I just can't think of any other right now.
 
I believe this would do the trick if you don't actually mind becoming the Papacy. I think it's still possible to get a nice new shiny flag and such via events, and you could add future Italian events to the Papacy file triggering off of previous events about Italian unification.

Of course, you'll also need to wake/sleep monarchs and leaders.

#Reconciliation With Rome#
event = {

id = xxxxx
trigger = { NOT = { exists = PAP }

OR = {religion = catholic}
{religion = counterreform}
owned = {province = 399 data = xxx}
}

random = no
country = xxx
style = 2

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
offset = 120
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }

name = "Reconciliation with Rome"
desc = "The Pope had opposed every move to unify Italy, rightfully seeing it as an event which would dilute his authority. However, he was now faced with two very ugly facts: first, Italy had unified despite his efforts and he his lands were now controlled by a very large, and very militant, enemy. Second, his authority in Europe had been waning over time, especially so with the Protestant Reformation, and few kings paid heed to Papal edicts. Swallowing these bitter pills, the Pope decided to make the best of a bad situation and attempt to use the new Kingdom of Italy to restore some of the Church's lost authority. In return for annexation into the Kingdom the Pope was given a large amount of cash, granted permanent tithes from Roma, and promised that Italy would further catholicism across Europe and beyond, by war if necessary. Italy committed itself to the goal of one church, with the Pope at its head."

action_a = { #We are Rome!#
name = "We welcome the Pope into Italy"
command = { type = country which = PAP } command = { type = addcore which = 399 }
command = { type = religion which = counterreform }
command = { type = treasury value = -500 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 399 value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -2 }
}

action_b = { #Who needs the pope?#
name = "Who needs the Pope?"
command = { type = addcore which = 399 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
}
 
Originally posted by maxpublic
I believe this would do the trick if you don't actually mind becoming the Papacy. I think it's still possible to get a nice new shiny flag and such via events, and you could add future Italian events to the Papacy file triggering off of previous events about Italian unification.

}

I like this event MaxPublic, this, given the game engine, is the only way for a united Italy to take possesion of the province of Roma. They would need to embrace the Papacy as part of their ruling power. Maybe just in name, with temporal kings still really ruling the country, while the Pope handles the spiritual matters.
this is the type of event I was thinking of for my alternate History Savoy-anti-Pope events.

don't you think this event should be able to hapen even if "Italy" has not conquered Rome. I would think an understanding could just be reached with the Papacy, once they saw Italy was ruled by a single power ? Or maybe control of Roma alone would convince the Pope ?

Late,
Jester
 
Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
I thought, that by becaming PROTESTANT you would not have the problem with the ETERNAL negative factor... I thougt that... but can ONE please give me a 100% right answer?

It doesn' t matter what religion you are. ANYONE that controls ROMA, except for the PAP tag has a CB on them with every Catholic nation.

Late,
Jester
 
Originally posted by maxpublic
I believe this would do the trick if you don't actually mind becoming the Papacy. I think it's still possible to get a nice new shiny flag and such via events, and you could add future Italian events to the Papacy file triggering off of previous events about Italian unification.
The events part would work, and Italian leaders and monarchs could be dormant in the PAP file, BUT there is no way to change flags, shields, and country name. Your country will be call "Papacy", and will use Papal flag, shield, and sprites.

I don't see why people have such a hang up about the CB. It is an appropriate penalty for occupying Rome.
 
Originally posted by Jester
don't you think this event should be able to hapen even if "Italy" has not conquered Rome. I would think an understanding could just be reached with the Papacy, once they saw Italy was ruled by a single power ? Or maybe control of Roma alone would convince the Pope ?

Late,
Jester

Actually, in the remains of my old Italian file there's a second event that triggers if you control the entire peninsula except for Rome, which allows you to peacefully inherit (and then become) the Papacy. Even the description is the same, except for:

"his lands were now controlled by a very large, and very militant, enemy"

becomes

"his lands were now surrounded by a very large, and very militant, enemy"

The idea here is that you can become Italia by conquering Rome and incurring the wrath of every Catholic nation in the game, or you can become Italia by enlisting the Pope to your cause. If the Pope is on your side and declares you the defender of the faith, there is no justification for giving every Catholic nation a CB against you. So in the 'enlist the pope' events you have to change to the Papacy in order to avoid the hard-coded "you own Rome - now we hate your forever" game mechanic.

Of course, I'm assuming that the Pope isn't a die-hard fanatic that's incapable of seeing how a unified Italy - with a unified and very influential Church, under the Pope's absolute control - could be an extremely useful thing. With the growing threat of Protestantism an Italian state committed to restoring the One True Faith might be the Pope's only chance of regaining the authority he's lost over the rest of Europe. And if the realpolitik of the situation is that Italy is going to be unified *anyway*, with or without the Pope, perhaps he'd take a page out of Machiavelli's book and make the best of the situation.

Max
 
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I think the AGC version is the most thought-out to be honest.

By the way, there is a way to avoid the papal minuses and still have rome... move the Pope somewhere else :D

Give him Malta or Sicily or something.
 
Originally posted by Mad King James
I think the AGC version is the most thought-out to be honest.
I agree that the basic ideas there have to be the core. I'd like to narrow down the problem somewhat, as was also the intention in the AGC thread (at least to start with). I agree that it could be done in many ways, including many different parts of Italy. I don't intend to exclude any of those, but I think we should start out with the basic: That is Kingdom of (Northern) Italy, created by non-republics and not by or including the Papal States, possibly in one nice way (low BB) and one hard way (high BB), as lined up by Garbon. I haven't finished reading the other threads, but some nice additions and arguements might be found there as well. I'll get back with summaries soon. The intention is to get it into EEP 1.4.2 Fantasy option, but hopefully used by the merger as well, hence I use this thread.

Edit: And I like your KoI flag MKJ!! :D
 
This is connected to italian unification, but only slightly. I think that, if you control Italy, it should be possible to release "Italy" as a vassal as long as you aren't an Italian state. Look at Napoleon for example, he created a North italian nation temporarily. That might be a bad example, but most of the Italians liked Napoleon (at first) except for the fact that he didnt completely unify Italy. Unifying and releasing Italy should be entirely possible.
Also, I believe that the Byzantine Empire should have events to either release Italy or some sort of West Roman Empire if they control the areas. But thats a lil off topic :p.
 
The idea here is that you can become Italia by conquering Rome and incurring the wrath of every Catholic nation in the game, or you can become Italia by enlisting the Pope to your cause. If the Pope is on your side and declares you the defender of the faith, there is no justification for giving every Catholic nation a CB against you. So in the 'enlist the pope' events you have to change to the Papacy in order to avoid the hard-coded "you own Rome - now we hate your forever" game mechanic.

And you really think that after spending 500 years to become independent of the E.R. emperors, fight the German Emperors and gain secular and spiritual power in effect making him much more than just another patriarch, the Pope would gladly submit to a duke or count in Tuscany or Savoy? Face it, a secular Italy, including Rome, would really upset the entire feudal pyramid in Europe (at least until Napoleon's fall). Annex the Pope, and what is the use of the Holy Roman Empire (or any Catholic Empire for that matter)?

Historically, it was not even necessary for a state to conquer Rome. If a country played somewhat aggressive in Italy, the Pope could always excomunicate it and set up a Holy League or alliance against that particular misbehaving state. Or the H.R. emperor could intervene (as it was his written duty) to defend the Papacy and put the troublemaker out of its misery.

Even Napoleon treated the Pope with much respect and did not allow the Papal states being annexed by either the Cisalpine Rep. or the Kingdom of Naples. Although he was the product of an atheistic phenomenon (the French Rev.) once he became Emperor he accepted the duties that title conferred: defender of Christendom (that is protector of the Catholic Church). He even named his son as his successor according to the H.R.E. tradition (King of Rome).

mes deux centimes,

Laur
 
I don't really understand why everyone is so hung up about every Catholic nation in the world gaining a CB on any non-Papal owner of Rome? In my last game, AI Tuscany held Rome for 300 years, and never got a single DoW (well, not many at least)!! They were just three provinces for this entire time, but the AI left them alone anyway.

I think we should stop wondering about this Rome-CB thingy and consider how it (the unification of Italy, that is) should be done instead.
 
I don't really understand why everyone is so hung up about every Catholic nation in the world gaining a CB on any non-Papal owner of Rome?

Because that's what excomunication meant, and more...

Laur
 
Originally posted by Laur
Because that's what excomunication meant, and more...

Laur

But I have seen at least a dozen countries other then the Papal states own Rome, and none of them were torn apart in a fury of religious fanaticism by the rest of the Catholic world...