Twoflower said:
The purpose of this is not to apply history loosely to the game, but to ensure fairness and equal chances.
At what point in history was anything fair and equal? This is an impossibility.
Twoflower said:
Remember that of course events would be set up in a way that the historical outcome is made the most likely one and that ahistorical things are of course not the A choices.
Yes but you must realize that every time an event is added to the game that has an ahistorical b choice this inevitably makes the game more ahistorical. Sure it happens only 5% of the time, but the more 5% of the times you have the more the game becomes ahistorical. They add up after awhile and the end result is that in 1820 the game is doomed to have only a remote resemblance to the real world arrangement in 1820. Because of this whether we are aware of it or not continually adding ahistorical b options mess up the historical outcome of the game, especially in the 2nd half of it.
On the other hand we certainly don't want the game to just be a movie of world history that we watch but cannot alter in any way. Of course there should be alternate possiblities, but we must handle them responsibly not wrecklessly dreaming of what things could have been like and then imposing it on the game. Every ahistorical b option needs to have been a very very realistic possiblity and have only minor ahistorical effects on gameplay as a whole or we as AGCEEP contributors are just preaching one thing and doing another. We say we want the game to be more accurate, and we may even be sincere about this, but we are really making it less accurate. These ahistoical b options may seem so harmless in the 15th century but they may very well have very very radical effects after the results of them are compunded by say the last half of the 17th century.
It is excruciatingly important that when we make historical events the the B options either diverge only slighlty from the historical A option or simply do not have the capacity to significantly alter the game. Without making events by this philosophy we are just causing chaos in the last half of the game.
And making ahistorical events period is destructive to making the game roughly follow the historical path. Any and all ahistorical events need to be optional addons to the game start with default settings on no. If this philosophy of game modding is not applied to the construction of the AGCEEP, then mark my words 2 possible outcomes will happen. Either a large chunk of the AGCEEP contributors will get fed up with this kinda crap and leave and make their own mod trying to make it stay for the most part historically accurate or another mod will take the AGCEEP's place as being a mod that trys to be more historically accurate and many contributors here will leave and join it. If and when either of these 2 scenarios happen the AGCEEP will be left to a small fringe group of EU2 players and very few people will pay much attention to the AGCEEP anymore.
Twoflower said:
At least as I perceive it, the biggest criticism about the AGCEEP is that it is quite deterministic and that too much is handled by events - that's what you usually get to hear from the MP community, and what many of them want is that a mod, differently from vanilla, offers better chances for medium nations that are often played in MP, like Denmark and Venice, to be developed into major powers.
Well if these picky MP players want this then let them make their own mod. I'm sick of us constantly having to bear in mind what these MP players want. Are we their slaves? Are we making the AGCEEP for us or for them?
I haven't once read this criticism your talking about since I starting helping out here. I have however read the criticism I'm talking about a good number of times.
Twoflower said:
Our first goal should certainly be to make the game more historical, however we should never ever enforce history, we should leave room for playing - and therefore not let any event do things that can be done as well ingame - and we should make the game react realistically to ahistorical game situations - and I think it is quite realistic that if any West European country would have gathered the necessary ressources and the necessary internal dynamism, creating an East Indian company would have been an obvious option.
If that is our first goal then we need to be faithful to it and stop cheating on it behind it's back. There is plenty of playing room already. The problem is there is too much playing room not too little. Even when Johan is making beta patches what does he have to keep in mind? I'll tell you what. He has to figure out ways to make players doing odd things to their advantage in the game that are ahistorical, have a much harder time getting away with it. He follows the premise of the AGCEEP even better than many of us. He makes us look like posers.
Twoflower said:
Giving away provinces in India to the historical colonial powers regardless of the game situation and not giving anybody else the chance to interfere if they have the potential to do it is unrealistic, deterministic and plain boring IMHO.
No it isn't. If they have the capacity to interefere than they will do so by military means just like they did in real life. The game as is, is very poor at replicating wars of global proportions. Yet these kinds of wars did indeed take place and they ought to be one of the most interesting and engaging parts of the game. But they are all but completely absent from the game. And ceding a few provinces in Asia and Africa here and there, that are historically justified, will do alot to fix this problem.
Furthermore we need to make playing an Asian country not just a matter of playing a country in the game that has only the slightest contact with europeans. They need to have to hold fast in the face of european encroachment not just ignore the europeans the whole game. Giving events for historical cessessions will do alot to fix this problem too.
Twoflower said:
Can I assume that everybody, or most people, agree with my proposal of giving shields on all of coastal India in EIC events (or in some other earlier event for Portugal) to the four historical colonial powers?
I definitely do not. And if people are willing to listen to me I'll do what I can to make sure everyone else doesn't either. First of all giving cores to EICs would be disastrous. First of the AIs will almost never ever capitalize on it and a human player will pick yes to making an EIC and then proceed to take every single one of these and then once they have that foothold they will take all of India. But the AIs won't they'll ignore it completely.
Secondly the AIs will DOW other europeans that own these provinces in India and they are already DOWing each other enough.
Thirdly this will also give humans CBs against other europeans that own 1 or 2 of these coastal provinces and humans will inevitably abuse this too by refusing the AI offers of these provinces they have cores on in every peace offer and then DOWing the same country over and over after 5 years in between wars until it is dead or down to just its capital.
And fourthly for you MP worshippers just think of the chaos these kinds of abuses could cause in an MP game.
This is why select cessessions work. They are historically justified, both the AIs and humans can benefit from them, they realisticaly simulate history much better, and most importantly they will allow for far less ahistorical game play abuse.
Sometimes some people in this forum really shock me. They seem to pay almost no attention to the cosequences of their change proposals. Many of the gameplay problems that we AGCEEP contributors are trying to fix are actually caused by old AGCEEP events. I say this not to insult anyone but to provoke people to consider these things more carefully so that the AGCEEP doesn't wind up being a dismal failure.