The aim is to include many of these states as revolters from the Mughals. I don't know if the added cultures could be created, but I agree that sinhalese should be unique.Civilleader said:
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doktarr said:
I think that it will be almost impossible given the religious division. Unless all states have a sunni and hindu province (so that the AI will tolerate the other) high relations won't last. Actually, Sunni can't tolerate Hindus no matter what. As such I think things will inevitably be unstable.
Recently played a game as Timurid/Mughal Empire and it was great fun,but two things bugged me:
The Mughal cores are completely screwed up.I retained all the old cores from the Timurids,so I was able to control big chunks of Persia without difference,as I also got Persian culture later on. Even the core on Azerbaijan never goes away.
But then,while I get cores on almost all of North India,I never get a core on Kabul for example,though it is my capital for over 30 years.
Is it really WAD that the Rajput revolts NEVER go away?All the other big revolts like Dutch,North American,Vietnamese etc. go away,if you've kept the areas long enough.But with the Rajputs I even get the event adding 10 RR regularly,so that I ended with over 70% RR from these event effects.
Besides,Rajputana joined me voluntarily in the 16th century.In this event it says that for a time Rajputs were treated well,until intolerance reigned again from Aurangzeb on.Probably,if you choose against Aurangzebs intolerance (like I did),these events should stop occurring. It's Ok,when you have a bit revoltrisk there,say by removing Rajput culture at some point,but NOT 70%+ other events+religion=81% in 1819!
The Mughal cores are completely screwed up.I retained all the old cores from the Timurids,so I was able to control big chunks of Persia without difference,as I also got Persian culture later on. Even the core on Azerbaijan never goes away.
But then,while I get cores on almost all of North India,I never get a core on Kabul for example,though it is my capital for over 30 years.
Is it really WAD that the Rajput revolts NEVER go away?All the other big revolts like Dutch,North American,Vietnamese etc. go away,if you've kept the areas long enough.But with the Rajputs I even get the event adding 10 RR regularly,so that I ended with over 70% RR from these event effects.
Besides,Rajputana joined me voluntarily in the 16th century.In this event it says that for a time Rajputs were treated well,until intolerance reigned again from Aurangzeb on.Probably,if you choose against Aurangzebs intolerance (like I did),these events should stop occurring. It's Ok,when you have a bit revoltrisk there,say by removing Rajput culture at some point,but NOT 70%+ other events+religion=81% in 1819!
Just to reiterate... we really need the Twoflower/Khephren/MKJ stuff about the 1419 setup to be implemented ASAP. Doing this will allow the Mughal and Portugal events for the early 1500s to get properly implemented.
Kennely, I agree that there are problems with the Mughal/Transoxanian cores. The biggest issue is that they have no cores on Afghanistan. The Persia issue is not a huge one since the historical path (which the AI follows) leads to Transoxania being created fresh, without the extra cores.
Kennely, I agree that there are problems with the Mughal/Transoxanian cores. The biggest issue is that they have no cores on Afghanistan. The Persia issue is not a huge one since the historical path (which the AI follows) leads to Transoxania being created fresh, without the extra cores.
Yes it is WAD but the RR i guess should drop for the Mughuls during the time of peace, but go back up again later.Kennelly said:
Unlike most other places in the world EVERY area until the British arrived (and even to some extent them and modern india) have had trouble with Rajputs. They consider themselves not only different, but superio, espicially to any Hindu nation. I would put their sense of identity until the late 18th early 19 cemtiry on par with japan at this time.
Well I'm at a loss about fixing India. I can't figure out how to do some of the scripting yet. But a real big problem is monarch names. I've found this website. =
http://www.hostkingdom.net/regindex.html
It has just about every king list for every country everywhere. If you click on the "Greater India" link about half way down the page it will give you all the king lists for Indian countries. This should help for making north Indian countries real good but the southern ones have a problem here.
There is no Zamorins of Calicut king list and I've looked for one all over the internet too and can't find one. I can't even find the name of the Zamorin who was there when Da Gama shows up. As far as I know there is no information on this. If someone knows differently please let me know.
There is no rulers of Cochin king list until 1500. So all the ones for this country prior to that will have to be ficticious along with the calicut ones. However the Venad king list is here. So they can be historical.
I don't know if I can help much more than this for country creating. But I can give some stats for the southern Indian provinces that are not yet corrected.
Kerala was a heavy agricultural region, probably the most heavy in southern India. So given that Mysore has 15 tax(the highest of the south Indian provinces) you should figure that Calicut should get the same. Cochin should be the smallest here but Goa, Mangalore, and Trivandrum should all be high too. Goa had pretty heavy agriculture too, under the Portuguese as well. So here's my reccommendations based on study of these regions.
Goa 12 tax(My 1567 ecclessiastical event lowers this by 2)
Mangalore 12 tax
Kerala 15 tax
Cochin 8 tax
Trivandrum 12 tax
I already submitted some province commodity changes to the submissions thread some time ago, so that part should be done already.
I'm not as knowledgeable about northern India so I don't have any advice there yet, except that when Bijapur forms it should get Goa.
http://www.hostkingdom.net/regindex.html
It has just about every king list for every country everywhere. If you click on the "Greater India" link about half way down the page it will give you all the king lists for Indian countries. This should help for making north Indian countries real good but the southern ones have a problem here.
There is no Zamorins of Calicut king list and I've looked for one all over the internet too and can't find one. I can't even find the name of the Zamorin who was there when Da Gama shows up. As far as I know there is no information on this. If someone knows differently please let me know.
There is no rulers of Cochin king list until 1500. So all the ones for this country prior to that will have to be ficticious along with the calicut ones. However the Venad king list is here. So they can be historical.
I don't know if I can help much more than this for country creating. But I can give some stats for the southern Indian provinces that are not yet corrected.
Kerala was a heavy agricultural region, probably the most heavy in southern India. So given that Mysore has 15 tax(the highest of the south Indian provinces) you should figure that Calicut should get the same. Cochin should be the smallest here but Goa, Mangalore, and Trivandrum should all be high too. Goa had pretty heavy agriculture too, under the Portuguese as well. So here's my reccommendations based on study of these regions.
Goa 12 tax(My 1567 ecclessiastical event lowers this by 2)
Mangalore 12 tax
Kerala 15 tax
Cochin 8 tax
Trivandrum 12 tax
I already submitted some province commodity changes to the submissions thread some time ago, so that part should be done already.
I'm not as knowledgeable about northern India so I don't have any advice there yet, except that when Bijapur forms it should get Goa.
As it is, the Europeans never, ever get a foothold in india, aside from the Portugese in Goa. To encourage historical growth here, portugal should really be given cores on Sri Lanka and their other western India provinces - although it would be rather ahistorical to remove revolt risks, the loss of income from the cultural difference would probably be enough to represent the turmoil from the European occupation.Twoflower said:
The best way around this would be to give Britain one or two provinces in the east, seceeded through events. This is historically accurate, as when the British landed in 1624, they were given permission to open trading posts in Calcutta and Madras. This event could either just give cores on these provinces, or just annex them to britain. By the time the game ends, Britain was in effective control of nearly all of India. I don't think there's a lot of problems in giving cores slowly over the sub-continent - as real revolts didn't spark off until 1847, after the game has ended - so the removal of revolt risk doesn't make for an ahistorical game. These events, I feel, are very important, as India was the Jewel in the crown of the Empire, and the fact that the game does not encourage you to go there sits quite badly with me.
The French colonies in Orissa could be represented in a similar way - drop a core on a province and hope that the AI will willingly invade.
The other European powers to have colonies in India were the Dutch and the Danes, but their enterprises never really took off, so it'd be safe to ignore them. However, the East Indies, now they're independant states, need to give an annexation event/cores/minor secession of some sort to the Dutch, to, again, encourage the AI to colonise the area.
Information taken from Wikipedia
Taear said:
I made an event set for Portuguese involvement in Ceylon. It's located here =
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155134&page=7&pp=25
in post #169, if you want to take a look. I've playtested real thoroughly and it's ready to be put in the submissiions thread. I was thinking about waiting until after 1.33 is released. Perhaps I'll put it in sooner though as it's still not ready yet.
I've also rewritten the Portuguese acquisition of Goa event set. It is located in the same thread in post # 157. I've playtestedthese pretty throrughly too and can submit them soon too if need be.
The problem with just giving cores in India like that is that the AI will still probably ignore India. I think events giving ownership or somehow inducing the AIs to attack select Indian provinces will be necessary. But I defintely agree with you that something needs to be done about the poor european involvement not just in India but all of Asia in general.
I think people are waiting for the India setup to be re-done as it's hands down the worst setup in the game, and bears only a remote resemblance to the historical setup of India in 1419. This needs to be doen asap. This is why I wrote my las post in this thread. Unfortunately I don't think I am at present capable of doing all of this. I haven't made a new country yet.
That's part of the reason I think it may be better to do an annexation/secession event to give a few starter provinces in the area. This seems to make the AI pay more attention, and at least TRY to take some provinces. Plus, it's perfectly historical, as per my link.idontlikeforms said:
I agree with 2 reservations.Taear said:
1. Each nation should have the option (ie action_b) of refusing to cede provinces
2. These should be AI only. Yes i know goa isn't, but goa was also made before ai only events were possible and i think all events giving provinces away for free like that to humans need to be revisited to see if they are absolutely needed to help push the game in a more historic manner.
The first one is a given, really, if only to help in multiplayer games. Give the Indian nation a "Infact... this is a bad idea" and the European nation a "We have more important things to attend to" as action_b for the event, and you're set.Jinnai said:
I disagree with the second one, though. It's historically accurate for England to be given Calcutta, and it makes their eventual dominion of the continent slightly easier than it would be if you were sailing troops there for months. I see no reason why only the AI should get the events that hand over these important places.
I don't have any problem with cessation events like this as long as each individual case has historical justifications, like they actually did just recieve it or seize it without any significant fighting.
Goa is an exception to this of course but that is because so much gamplay and future events hinge on Portuguese ownership of Goa and also because a Goa country would have to be created and then live only a short time before Portugal would attack it. Since this is so inefficient, having Goa ceded is the most logical/practical solution.
Taear more history will have to be researched to make each one of these cases individually, than just the encyclopedia article.
Goa is an exception to this of course but that is because so much gamplay and future events hinge on Portuguese ownership of Goa and also because a Goa country would have to be created and then live only a short time before Portugal would attack it. Since this is so inefficient, having Goa ceded is the most logical/practical solution.
Taear more history will have to be researched to make each one of these cases individually, than just the encyclopedia article.
The first one, of course. The second one is harder. I think it was widely agreed upon in "The great colonial empires" -thread that there could be a few key provinces ceded, even for players.Jinnai said:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135889&page=1&pp=25 first three pages are relevant, then it's all about slavery.
Hard to implement the requirements of 4 though.Twoflower said:
idontlikeforms said:
Well, there is this article, and site, which focuses entirely on british colonisation and control of India. It mentions the founding of Fort St. George in Madras, and is rather more specific than the wikipedia stub.
Again, I would say that it supports the secession of at least one indian province, or perhaps the province being emptied out, and slowly colonised, which might be a little more realistic - if the AI could be persuaded to go through with it.
Hmm, about one month ago there was agreement that a new setup ought to be implemented asap; since then nothing has happened. To get this done, I will post the following setup plus possibly suggested changes to the submission thread by the end of the week (that is in order to give some time for people to object if necessary):
Vijayanagar: Bangalore, Madras, Mangalore, Mysore, Madurai, Pondicherry
Bahmanids: Hyderabad, Maharashtra, Goa, Yanam, Palakimedi, Khandesh
Gondwana: Gondwana, Bastar, Sambalpur
Rajputana: Malwa, Rajputana, Bikaner
Gujarat: Gujarat, Kutch
Sindh: Sindh, Indus
Delhi: Thar, Panjab, Chandigahr, Delhi, Bundelkhand, Awadh, Raipur
Jaunpur: Tirhut, Koch
Nepal: Nepal
Bengal: Howrah, Ganges, Bihar, Santal
Orissa: Odisa, Berhampur
Calicut: Kerala
Venad: Trivandrum
Cochin: Cochin
revolters:
Ahmadnagar in Khandesh and Bombay
Bijapur in Maharashtra and Goa
Mysore in Mysore
Vijayanagar: Bangalore, Madras, Mangalore, Mysore, Madurai, Pondicherry
Bahmanids: Hyderabad, Maharashtra, Goa, Yanam, Palakimedi, Khandesh
Gondwana: Gondwana, Bastar, Sambalpur
Rajputana: Malwa, Rajputana, Bikaner
Gujarat: Gujarat, Kutch
Sindh: Sindh, Indus
Delhi: Thar, Panjab, Chandigahr, Delhi, Bundelkhand, Awadh, Raipur
Jaunpur: Tirhut, Koch
Nepal: Nepal
Bengal: Howrah, Ganges, Bihar, Santal
Orissa: Odisa, Berhampur
Calicut: Kerala
Venad: Trivandrum
Cochin: Cochin
revolters:
Ahmadnagar in Khandesh and Bombay
Bijapur in Maharashtra and Goa
Mysore in Mysore
Punjab
I was talking with twoflower about a Punjab Sihkism revolter. There is precident for this, espeically once Sihkism is founded.
The problem is what to make the religion. Sihkism is a fairly even blend of Hinduism and Sunni Islam with some customs from local area added in. This makes it unique becuase it has enough similarites and differeance between the two afore mentioned religions to be either, but it really is neither. It could be pagan, but that's a hefty penalty to put on someone in that region. Neither religion claims it as a branch of their own. There is a culture of Sihk which can be used to diferinate it, but because neigboring regions of similar religions will have easier times ruling it, better relations, etc. as well as different penalties and whatnot applied this is a matter of some import.
twoflower suggested Hindu because of the neigboring regions relgiions being mostly sunni. While this has merit from a startup prespective, its all bets off once the game starts because of conversions, especially if things go the way they did historically, ie Rajputana should take the area and convert it to Hinduism.
note: because this was assumed by twoflower i wll state this here as well. Rajputana's religious identiy is not the same because Hindus consider Rajputanan beliefs a part of Hinduism. This is key here because they consider it a branch of Hinduism, both then and now. Both religions also do not consider Sihkism a branch of themselves
I was talking with twoflower about a Punjab Sihkism revolter. There is precident for this, espeically once Sihkism is founded.
The problem is what to make the religion. Sihkism is a fairly even blend of Hinduism and Sunni Islam with some customs from local area added in. This makes it unique becuase it has enough similarites and differeance between the two afore mentioned religions to be either, but it really is neither. It could be pagan, but that's a hefty penalty to put on someone in that region. Neither religion claims it as a branch of their own. There is a culture of Sihk which can be used to diferinate it, but because neigboring regions of similar religions will have easier times ruling it, better relations, etc. as well as different penalties and whatnot applied this is a matter of some import.
twoflower suggested Hindu because of the neigboring regions relgiions being mostly sunni. While this has merit from a startup prespective, its all bets off once the game starts because of conversions, especially if things go the way they did historically, ie Rajputana should take the area and convert it to Hinduism.
note: because this was assumed by twoflower i wll state this here as well. Rajputana's religious identiy is not the same because Hindus consider Rajputanan beliefs a part of Hinduism. This is key here because they consider it a branch of Hinduism, both then and now. Both religions also do not consider Sihkism a branch of themselves
Twoflower said:
Sounds good, but what will be the diplomatic relations between these countries at gamestart?
Yakman said:
Um, that's the vanilla HoI Omani flag...
Regarding European colonial cities in India, I was wondering what we are going to do about these. The arguments from the discussion in the colonial empires thread still hold true, however in some way we need to ensure that there is a certain amount of fairness. The matter of the fact is that if we are just giving away provinces to England, France, Portugal and the Netherlands while nobody else really has a chance to get involved, this would be loathed by the MP community - and it is also rather dull and close to "history book replaying" to handle it completely by province-ceding events. Therefore my proposal would be this:
- only four European possessions in India - Calcutta and Madras for England, Goa for Portugal and Pondicherry for France - are ceded to these countries by event, since these were immensely important for their countries and acquired absolutely peacefully so that it would be ahistorical to force the countries to conquer them - and also these were the three biggest powers in India that somehow deserve a certain boost
- the historical colonial powers in India (Portugal, England, France, Netherlands, Denmark) and some additional countries who either made attempts as well - like Austria and Scotland - or for whom it might have made sense under certain circumstances - like perhaps the French, British, Iberian and Dutch minors - get the opportunity to found an East India Company in an event. Besides the effects that these events currently have, they will grant cores on all coastal provinces in India. Thus, quite a lot of European states will have the possibility, provided they got the ressources, to conquer the provinces, and historical conflict between the European powers for their Indian possessions is encouraged
This idea sound like a good one. Idontlikeform says he got that old 'discovered' command working, perhaps that can be helpful here. What should these East India Companies trigger on? DP settings (naval, mercantilism/free trade, trade level), a minimum size perhaps. Are there any precedents?