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zdlugasz said:
I am not following you. Should every bad situation have "but it might have been not that bad" option? Like Golden Horde is destined to fall - why not write options c with stability hits and RR for a few years "we keep them all/ we are not falling apart"? Is this not what you are proposing?
I am not proposing it. That is the way it is. When I made the decadence of the Ottoman empire everybody insisted on an easy way out for the player even though the consequences are easily reverted by a good economy playing. You are the one proposing something new: "Let's not let the player get out of this one. History doesn't always give choices" Real but not player friendly.

zdlugasz said:
IMO if player allowed Portugal to revolt he should pay/take consequeces.
Same consequences as letting anybody else revolt. No less, no more.

zdlugasz said:
I know, however some event strings can leave permanent RR in provinces.
Please report them in the bug thread so we can have them fixed.
 

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Garbon said:
In the case of what you describe, I do side with your thinking. You are giving the player a choice. If she wants to let Portugal free, then she has to deal with the consequences...as ultimately she could take Portugal over again, is that was desired.
Option A you freely let Portugal go and return all provinces. Option B there is no option B.
Eventually this is going to trigger on some unsuspecting player with the result of getting him pissed off and ruining his game. For whose benefit?
 

zdlugasz

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Fodoron said:
I am not proposing it. That is the way it is. When I made the decadence of the Ottoman empire everybody insisted on an easy way out for the player even though the consequences are easily reverted by a good economy playing. You are the one proposing something new: "Let's not let the player get out of this one. History doesn't always give choices" Real but not player friendly.
Player has a very simple way-out. Do not let two or more province Portugal revolt. Is it difficult? How many provinces you have to watch out (I do not remember exactly basic cores for Portugal): 4, 5?


Let us leave this discussion until I will present full code and concentrate on provinces instead.
As I said there will be two events - one with warning and setting flag and the second one after Portugal successfully revolted and signed peace treaty.
 

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This is the new leader for Aragon, identical to the one in Castile except in the name and id:
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 010821 }
	category = monarch
	name = "Fernando II"
	startdate = {
		year=1475
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1502 # He should be around for the wars of Granada, that often take longer in EU2
	}
	rank = 0
	movement = 4
	fire = 4
	shock = 3
	siege = 1
	dormant = yes
}
And this is the event that wakes him up. It is triggered before the formation of Spain in any case
Code:
# Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon #
# by Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 111010 # triggered by ARG 111021B, ARG 111022, CAS 142011B
	random = no
	country = ARG
	name = "EVENTNAME111010" # Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon
	desc = "EVENTHIST111010"
	#-#Milord, you can rest assured that your kingdom is safe. Prince Fernando is a very skilled commander, and he is no longer distracted by his affairs in Castile.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME111021A" #Welcome my son
		command = { type = wakeleader which = 010821 } #Fernando II (ARG)
	}
}
EVENTNAME111010;Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST111010;Milord, you can rest assured that your kingdom is safe. Prince Fernando is a very skilled commander, and he is no longer distracted by his affairs in Castile.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME111021A;Welcome my son;;;;;;;;;;

It is triggered if Aragon refuses the union:
Code:
# Fernando travels to Castile in disguise #
# by Twoflower and Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 111021
	trigger = { exists = CAS }
	random = no
	country = ARG
	name = "EVENTNAME111021" #Fernando Rescues Isabel
	desc = "EVENTHIST111021"
	#-#Fernando, young and imbued in the knighthood spirit of his time, decided to rescue Isabel from Villena and king Enrique, after receiving her letter accepting his marriage proposal. But the mountain passes were controlled by nobles loyal to Enrique with orders to stop him. To avoid being recognized, he disguised himself as a servant to a group of merchants, going to the extreme of having to serve them dinner at the stops. Running a serious risk, he crossed hostile territory before meeting the count of TreviÒo with 300 lances to protect him. Finally he arrived to Valladolid to meet his bride. It was love at first sight. However a problem remained, as Isabel and Fernando were second cousins and required papal dispensation. But Paul II was in good terms with Enrique, and had already granted a papal dispensation for Isabel and Alfonso V of Portugal, also related, and refused to give a second dispensation for the same person. But nothing could stand in the way of love, and a papal dispensation was quickly forged and dated five years before, during the papacy of Pius II. A real dispensation will not be obtained until 1471 with Sixtus IV, and by then the couple already had a daughter.

	date = { day = 1 month = september year = 1469 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME111021A" #Accept the power of love
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -25 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 142010 } #CAS: Seek Dynastic Alliance to Aragon
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME111021B" #Aragon shall remain independent
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 25 }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = Iberian } # cultures eventually separate too much
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 142011 } #Wedding at Valladolid #CAS: Let's Consummate the Union
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 142012 } #CAS: Isabel and Fernando Kings of Castile
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 111022 } #ARG: The Civil Wars of Aragon and Castile are Over
		[color=yellow]command = { type = trigger which = 111010 } #ARG: Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon[/color]
	}
}
It is triggered if Aragon leads the union (human):
Code:
# The end of the Castilian civil war #
# by Twoflower and Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 111022
	random = no
	country = ARG
	trigger = { ai = no }
	name = "EVENTNAME111022" #The Civil Wars of Aragon and Castile are Over
	desc = "EVENTHIST111022"
	#-#Juan II monarchy was very troublesome. His disputes with his own son Carlos, and the resistance of the catalan nobility to his authority, ended in a civil war with the uprising of Barcelona in 1462. But the catalan serfs or remensa revolted in favor of the king against the nobles, and he had also the support of Aragon, Valencia and Sicily. The war was very long, and with foreign participation, as the catalan nobility offered the County to whoever offered help, including Enrique of Castile, Pedro of Portugal and Renee of Anjou. Finally, a blind seventy years old Juan was able to win and enter Barcelona in 1472. He wisely showed clemency and pardoned all implicated. His troubles with Louis XI continued as he tried to recover the Rousillon, ceded to the French king as a guaranty and not returned. He also helped his son Fernando, when the civil war started in Castile with the crowning of Isabel and Fernando in 1475. With the decisive defeat of the Portuguese at Toro in 1476, the war was reduced to a series of campaigns against rebel nobles. In his last days before dying of old age, Juan could finally rest, as he had secured the kingdom of Aragon for his son, and he had set in motion the union of Aragon and Castile to form a strong iberian kingdom.

	date = { day = 1 month = december year = 1478 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME111022A" #My kingdom is secured for my son
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 111023 } #ARG: Aragon and Castile are One
		[color=yellow]command = { type = trigger which = 111010 } #ARG: Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon[/color]
	}
}
It is triggered if Castile refuses the union:
Code:
# Wedding at Valladolid #
# by Twoflower and Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 142011
	random = no
	country = CAS
	name = "EVENTNAME142011" #Let's Consummate the Union
	desc = "EVENTHIST142011"
	#-#When Isabel met Fernando at Valladolid it was love at first sight. Fernando had faced many dangers to come to her rescue, crossing in disguise parts of Castile that were hostile to them. The wedding had to proceed quickly to prevent Enrique from interfering, but there remained a problem. Isabel and Fernando were both Trastamara, and being second cousins required a papal dispensation to legally marry. But Juan II of Aragon had not succeeded in obtaining it. Pope Paul II was in good terms with Enrique, and had already granted a papal dispensation for Isabel and Alfonso V of Portugal, also related, and refused to give a second dispensation for the same person. But nothing could stand in the way of love, and a papal dispensation was quickly forged and dated five years before, during the papacy of Pius II. A real dispensation will not be obtained until 1471 with Sixtus IV, and by then the couple already had a daughter. After the wedding night, the sheets were shown to the people to demonstrate that the virgin was no more, in the accepted custom of the time. This demonstration of the consummation of the marriage partially contributed to calm the fears that the unauthorised wedding would precipitate Castile back into the nobility strife that characterized the reign of Enrique IV the impotent. When Enrique denounced the pacts of Guisando, naming his doubtful daughter Juana the heir, Isabel made public a manifest of allegiance to the pacts and to Enrique for as long as he was alive. Enrique, as indecisive as always, did not take any measure, delaying the civil war until his dead. Meanwhile most of the nobility took sides with Juana, even those that had previously challenged her legitimacy to weaken Enrique, as now they opposed the strong monarchy represented by Isabel and Fernando.

	date = { day = 19 month = october year = 1469 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME142011A" #Let's unite Castile and Aragon in bed and throne
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 3 } #nobility fights in Castile return
		command = { type = dynastic which = ARG }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME142011B" #I said I preferred the Duke of Guyenne
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 142012 } #CAS: Isabel and Fernando Kings of Castile
		[color=yellow]command = { type = trigger which = 111010 } #ARG: Prince Fernando commands the armies of Aragon[/color]
	}
}
 
Last edited:

Garbon

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Fodoron said:
Option A you freely let Portugal go and return all provinces. Option B there is no option B.
Eventually this is going to trigger on some unsuspecting player with the result of getting him pissed off and ruining his game. For whose benefit?

Didn't he say there are two events? One that sets the flag and warns you about letting Portugal goes free...and then the other one which actually gives all the stuff away if Portugal is independent. If the player doesn't head the first event, then too bad, so sad.
 

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Garbon said:
Didn't he say there are two events? One that sets the flag and warns you about letting Portugal goes free...and then the other one which actually gives all the stuff away if Portugal is independent. If the player doesn't head the first event, then too bad, so sad.
This is not only imposing a Damocles sword on the player, but also depriving the player from a logical historic choice. Who says Spain (or any other country) is obligated to return colonies even in the case that independence is accepted?

As I see it Portugal forcefully and unilaterally declares independence and Spain is obligated not only to accept it but to return the colonies? Why have you decided that this is the way to go? Spain was under no obligation to return anything. She might have not been in a military situation to decide otherwise, but the player can certainly be.

History has always been served by option A and gameplay by option B, and I see no reason to change that now.
 

Garbon

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Fodoron said:
This is not only imposing a Damocles sword on the player, but also depriving the player from a logical historic choice. Who says Spain (or any other country) is obligated to return colonies even in the case that independence is accepted?

As I see it Portugal forcefully and unilaterally declares independence and Spain is obligated not only to accept it but to return the colonies? Why have you decided that this is the way to go? Spain was under no obligation to return anything. She might have not been in a military situation to decide otherwise, but the player can certainly be.

History has always been served by option A and gameplay by option B, and I see no reason to change that now.

I certainly think that this should be a more involved sequence. Perhaps not a great handover of everything but a few bits and then an annoyed Europe. I'd hardly think most nations would be sympathetic to Spain. So while I would agree that Spain shouldn't just hand everything over, there should be big trouble upon just letting Portugal go free.
 

zdlugasz

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Garbon said:
I'm looking into this right now.

Great!

event = {
id = 285152
trigger = {
owned = { province = 441 data = -1 }
NOT = { exists = POR }
}

random = no
country = SPA
name = "Portugese colonial Empire"
desc = "Portugese ruling dynasty died out in 1578 and Spanish claims to the Portugese throne had prevailed. Tightening of union between Spain and Portugal has finally brought unification, sought by so many rulers of Castille and earlier Leon. With this unification Spain has gained huge Portugese trading and colonial Empire, spanning half of the globe, from Brazil to Moluccas. However Sir, we should be wary. Not all Portugese are happy with our rule and if we will not take into account their needs and demands, they may revolt. If continental Portugal will succesfully regain its independece, Portugese colonists will revolt and we will lose Portugese colonies."


date = { day = 5 month = january year = 1580 }
offset = 100
deathdate = { year = 1645 }

action_a = {
name = "It is their"
command = { type = setflag which = AnnexedPortugal }
command = { type = vp value = 5 }

}
}

event = {
id = 285040
trigger = {
flag = AnnexedPortugal
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 441 data = SPA }
control = { province = 441 data = REB } }
AND = {
owned = { province = 442 data = SPA }
control = { province = 442 data = REB } }
AND = {
owned = { province = 434 data = SPA }
control = { province = 434 data = REB } }
} #OR
ai = no
}

random = no
country = SPA
name = "Portugese rebellion"
desc = "Sir, rebels captured one of Portugese provinces. Be warned that if continental Portugal will succesfully regain its independece before 1664, Portugese colonists will revolt and we will lose all or most of Portugese colonies."

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1580 }
offset = 1
deathdate = { year = 1664 }

action_a = {
name = "You were warned!"
command = { type = vp value = -5 }

}



event = {
id = 285153
trigger = {
flag = AnnexedPortugal
exists = POR
NOT = { war = { country = SPA country = POR } } #after war
}

random = no
country = SPA
name = "Rebellion of Portugese colonies"
desc = "Sir, our black dream has fulfilled. When Portugal has thrown away our rule, its colonies started to break away too. We still have strong military presence in Moluccas and in South America, where we could try to squash rebellions, however India and most of Africa are lost."


date = { day = 5 month = january year = 1640 }
offset = 100
deathdate = { year = 1664 }

action_a = {
name = "Drat!"
}
action_b = {
name = "Keep Brazil and Moluccas"


revolts in Brazil and Indonesia, independence for East Africa and Arabian Penninsula
}
}

PER 3564, 3565 - no deathdates

Golden Horde: should not 287027 secede provinces to Astrakhan as well? (after independece it will be one-province minor)
after new trigger GH will decline faster thus change trigger in CRI event with cessations in 1520
 

zdlugasz

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Fodoron said:
This is not only imposing a Damocles sword on the player, but also depriving the player from a logical historic choice. Who says Spain (or any other country) is obligated to return colonies even in the case that independence is accepted?

As I see it Portugal forcefully and unilaterally declares independence and Spain is obligated not only to accept it but to return the colonies? Why have you decided that this is the way to go? Spain was under no obligation to return anything. She might have not been in a military situation to decide otherwise, but the player can certainly be.

History has always been served by option A and gameplay by option B, and I see no reason to change that now.

Talking about depriving game/player of historical choise:

I do not remember Spain keeping Portugese colonies when Portugal revolted and Braganza dynasty started their rule?
Is it plausible that Portugese would like to live under Spanish rules?
And there is no game mechanism which will allow Timor, Pernambuco, Lobito (hell, even Capo Verde) to revolt away from Spain and join Portugal.

I checked Portugese cores- there are exactly 3 that matters: Tago, Porto and Algavre - if You are Spanish ruler and do not have anough troops to keep Tago from revolting away then I am sorry, but how are you supposed to suppres revolt in Brazil?
 

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Fodoron (sp?) has already mentioned the cases of Ceuta and other African citadels which didn't believe that the Portuguese crown could successfully defend them against north-african kingdoms, thus turning to Spain.
 

zdlugasz

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KaiserChicken said:
Fodoron (sp?) has already mentioned the cases of Ceuta and other African citadels which didn't believe that the Portuguese crown could successfully defend them against north-african kingdoms, thus turning to Spain.

I believe that Ceuta is not represented in game, and there are events (marriage of ..Braganza) when Portugal is turning Tangier to England, just because they can not keep it.
 

KaiserChicken

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Marriage of Catherine of Braganza...to Charles II of England ;)

I doubt that was because Portugal couldn't keep it. Afterall, Portugal kept many other tradeposts in India - if they were able to keep those (Goa, Diu, etc), why couldn't they keep Tangiers? I believe it was just given as dowry.
 

Garbon

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The other bit is that although the Kings of Spain were the monarchs of Portugal for the most part, they ruled it separately a la apointing vice-Kings...and thus there wouldn't be this sort of splitting as the colonies were still attached to the Portuguese crown.
 

sturmvogel

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Portugese colonies

The Portugese weren't anywhere near the colonizers that the Spanish were. They colonized Madeira beginning about 1424, the Azores beginning 1439, Cape Verde Islands around 1470-80, Fernando Po beginning 1493, Leone 1482, Casamance sometime after 1470 or so. Mozambique Island (Nampuia) and Sofala weren't settled until the 1500s (don't have the exact dates at hand). Brazil only had trading posts until around 1530 and Angola wasn't settled until 1574.

There were plenty of other trading posts, but these were the actual colonies.
 

sturmvogel

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Tangiers to England

zdlugasz said:
I believe that Ceuta is not represented in game, and there are events (marriage of ..Braganza) when Portugal is turning Tangier to England, just because they can not keep it.

The Portugese found that their North African colonies/fortresses just weren't profitable enough to justify the heavy military expenditures required to keep them. They actually started to abandon them during the mid-1500s. Giving away Tangiers was actually a fairly clever move on their support to solidify English support for their independence, which wasn't acknowledged by the Spanish until 1668, as Ceuta had chosen to adhere to the Spanish when the Portugese revolted.
Bombay was a much less clever idea as it effectively ruined the CoT at Goa because the English were much more efficient merchants than the Portugese and had previously lacked any base on the west coast of India.
 

sturmvogel

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Revolt of diploannexed Portugal

Garbon said:
The other bit is that although the Kings of Spain were the monarchs of Portugal for the most part, they ruled it separately a la apointing vice-Kings...and thus there wouldn't be this sort of splitting as the colonies were still attached to the Portuguese crown.

A couple of small notes. The House of Avis died out in 1580 with the death of the Cardinal-Infante D. Enrique, not 1578 when Sebastio (sp?) died. Ceuta is about the only Portugese possession that I can think of that decided to stay with Spain rather than rebel.

And, pardon my frankness, but this is all a lot of fuss and bother about a situation that will rarely, if ever, happen in the game. It's possible for it to happen for the AI, but if a player cannot suppress a rebellion in continental Portugal before it becomes Portugal then he needs to start over.
 

zdlugasz

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sturmvogel said:
And, pardon my frankness, but this is all a lot of fuss and bother about a situation that will rarely, if ever, happen in the game. It's possible for it to happen for the AI, but if a player cannot suppress a rebellion in continental Portugal before it becomes Portugal then he needs to start over.

Exactly my feeling.
 

Garbon

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sturmvogel said:
And, pardon my frankness, but this is all a lot of fuss and bother about a situation that will rarely, if ever, happen in the game. It's possible for it to happen for the AI, but if a player cannot suppress a rebellion in continental Portugal before it becomes Portugal then he needs to start over.


Perhaps the player doesn't want to hold onto Portugal and releases it as a vassal that should be an option. Besides, as Fodoron stated there isn't really a justification for Spain to just give everything back freely.
 

Garbon

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sturmvogel said:
The Portugese weren't anywhere near the colonizers that the Spanish were. They colonized Madeira beginning about 1424, the Azores beginning 1439, Cape Verde Islands around 1470-80, Fernando Po beginning 1493, Leone 1482, Casamance sometime after 1470 or so. Mozambique Island (Nampuia) and Sofala weren't settled until the 1500s (don't have the exact dates at hand). Brazil only had trading posts until around 1530 and Angola wasn't settled until 1574.

There were plenty of other trading posts, but these were the actual colonies.


Indeed, the Portuguese were more focused on making a merchant empire where as Spain was more focused on colonization. The situation of Mozambique(1507) and Sofala(1505) will be event driven soon as there will be states in those provinces.

This is why Portugal shouldn't get any of the Zanj as it never really took them over. A fort at Mombasa is hardly justification for giving them the province.