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sturmvogel

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Fodoron said:
New leader for Castile:
1843831015.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


The Unconquered Knight, A Chronicle of the Deeds of Don Pero Niño, Count of Buelna

Medieval military historians have been well-served by Boydell and Brewer's decision to republish as part of its First Personal Singular Series a paperback version of The Unconquered Knight, A Chronicle of the Deeds of Don Pero Nino, Count of Buelna. This English translation of an important mid-fifteenth century Castilian chronicle was the work of Joan Evans and was first printed by Rutledge in 1928. Usually referred to in Spanish as El Victorial, this work treats the life of a late medieval warrior whose chivalric deeds place him in the tradition of William Marshal.

Born around 1378, Pero Niño was raised in the royal household where his mother served as nursemaid to the crown prince, the future King Enrique III (1390-1406). The two boys, who were roughly the same age, became fast friends. It was during Enrique's reign that Pero Niño came of age and it is from this period that most of his chronicle dates, including its most vivid military passages. Taking up arms around the age of fifteen, the young nobleman had his first taste of battle fighting rebels against the crown, then served under Constable Rui Lopez Davalos in a war with Portugal, one of several such conflicts with the neighboring kingdom that broke out during the closing decades of the century. During these campaigns, Niño first demonstrated skill with a crossbow that became one of his hallmarks.

In 1404, with nearly a decade of campaigning already under his belt and having passed his twenty-fifth birthday, he was appointed to his first independent command, a squadron of Castilian galleys sailing the western Mediterranean in pursuit of the many corsairs who operated out of bases in Italy, Sicily, and southern France. During this same period, he raided Moslem principalities in North Africa that regularly sent their corsairs against Christendom.

In 1405, in accordance with Castile's treaty obligations to France, he was dispatched north in command of three galleys to aid the French during their latest round of hostilities with England. For the next two years, he fought the English, operating off Gascony, Brittany, and north through what the chronicle calls the Flanders Channel. On one occasion, he raided along the south coast of England, from Cornwall to Plymouth; on another, he recruited and led a successful amphibious expedition against the channel island of Jersey. When not at sea, Niño solidified his reputation as one of the great jousters of the era and contracted a liaison with a highborn French noblewoman, widow of the recently deceased admiral of France.

Throughout these years at sea, Niño frequently exhibited the rashness that would become another of his hallmarks; as a result, he incurred numerous wounds, including one from an arrow wound that nearly cost him his leg.
Summoned back to Castile in 1406, Niño received a hero's welcome at court, including a knighthood conferred by the king and an eventual appointment as commander of the royal bodyguard. Rather than accept an ambassadorship that would have returned him to France, he participated in the latest campaign against Moorish Granada, directed by the king's younger brother, Prince Fernando de Antequera, later King Fernando of Aragon. Shortly after Enrique's death, Niño contracted a secret marriage to Doña Beatriz, a member of the royal family. When the match became known, it encountered considerable opposition from Niño's recent commander, Prince Fernando, now serving as co-regent. There followed some months of exile, during which the nobleman sought sanctuary across the Pyrenees in southern France; a situation that endured until 1409, when he obtained a pardon from the prince-regent and the latter's approval of his marriage. For several more decades, Niño served the monarchy in the person of King Juan II (1406-1454), father of Isabel la Catolica, who conferred upon him the title Count of Buelna in 1431.

Pero Niño
id = 029800 (CAS)
startdate: 1403 was on command of the Castilian navy.
deathdate: 1453 (death at Valladolid)
rank = 3
movement = 5
fire = 2
shock = 4
siege = 0
remark = "The unconquered knight. Defeated the Portuguese, the Barbary pirates, and the English."
Comments: Defeated the Portuguese at the siege of Gijon, and the Barbary coast pirates and English on several ocassions. He sacked Avignon, Tunnis, Plymouth and Portland, and entered the Thames. He was never defeated on land or sea. Made Count of Buelna in 1431. Do not mistake with his descendant Pero Alonso Niño, who travelled on Columbus’s first voyage and was owner of “La Niña”.

Code:
historicalleader = {
	category = admiral
	id = { type = 6 id = 029800 }
	name = "Pero Niño"
	startdate = {
		year = 1403
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1453
	}
	rank = 3
	movement = 5
	fire = 2
	shock = 4
	siege = 0
	remark = "The unconquered knight. Defeated the Portuguese, the Barbary pirates, and the English"
}

Looks good to me, although that death date seems a bit long. Was he in active command into his seventies?
 

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sturmvogel said:
Looks good to me, although that death date seems a bit long. Was he in active command into his seventies?
Probably not. I haven't read the book :D. I just put the death date because I lack a trusted out of commission date. You would be surprised how many leaders go that way in AGCEEP.
 

Norrefeldt

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Toio said:
he did lead GEN forces not under SPA, basically from 1504 - 1519 (less 2 years under the papal)

my problem is that it opens up a can of worms for other nations with similar "mercenary" leaders, like the OE case I raised.
Carmagnola is also leader for two countries, Venice and Milan. What we should avoid is very short lived leaders that change countries. Currently he's a leader 1527-6, so the period you mention might not contain independent commands?

Fodoron, I like the events for Doria. If you are to sleep him, it needs to be done before startdate (currently 1527). In #Rise of Andrea Doria and the alliance with Charles V, option B, I think some of the galleys Toio mention as payment could be added, for balance.
What about #Andrea Doria's Reforms, option B, where he'll become Genoese Doge? Should he still be a leader for Spain, or should this sleep him?
So far RL "monarchs" that served other countries in history, still do so (Gonzaga of Mantua), but those that come to ahistorically serve their country change allegiance (Alessandro, duke of Parma /Spanish leader).

I'll commment more on the other leaders later. I saw once Spanish "Abril". I think comments should be max one row.
 

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Norrefeldt said:
Fodoron, I like the events for Doria. If you are to sleep him, it needs to be done before startdate (currently 1527). In #Rise of Andrea Doria and the alliance with Charles V, option B, I think some of the galleys Toio mention as payment could be added, for balance.
What about #Andrea Doria's Reforms, option B, where he'll become Genoese Doge? Should he still be a leader for Spain, or should this sleep him?

No problem. Doria is going to be asleep by default. I just put the command so the event informs the player that he will lose (or never get actually) his services.

I will give the galleys to Genoa ;)

Doria seems to have been able to compatibilize the dogeship with the service to the emperor. In an ideal game he would only have to serve while at war and during the summer campaigns, but that is not how EU2 works.
 

sturmvogel

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Torquemada and the Explusion of the Moors

There are some problems with the current event 3150. First off the date is wrong as the peace with Granada included freedom of worship, which wasn't violated by the Church until around the turn of the century. Only Granada revolted, but the Moors were affected in all of southern Spain, although the mass expulsion wasn't until much later. I think that IDLF's version would generally be a good replacement although I really don't know why he makes Spain go counterreform at this time. The dates and the text are clearly superior to the version currently in the game.

event = {
id = 3150
trigger = { owned = { province = 444 data = SPA } atwar = no }
random = no
country = SPA
name = "Forced conversion of the Moors"
desc = "Francisco Jimenez de Cisneros, who had been archbishop of Toledo since 1495, was impatient with the slow progress of converting the Mudejars and asked for permission to pursue a more rigorous policy. The new phase consisted of mass baptisisms with compulsory conversions. Some of the Moors of Granada immigrated to escape the forced conversions."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1499 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1530 }
action_a ={
name = "Expel all those who won't convert!"
command = { type = religion which = counterreform }
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -2 }
command = { type = population which = 444 value = -10000 }
command = { type = revolt which = 444 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 444 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 445 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 438 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 443 value = catholic }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3654 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3652 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3657 }}
action_b ={
name = "Leave the Mudejars be"
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -2 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }}}

Furthermore I like the Portugese subsequent events although I'd trigger them in 3150
Code:
event = {
	id = 260173
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "The Spanish Jews come to Portugal"
	desc = "In 1492, King Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain expelled all the Jews from Spain. More than 150,000 Spanish Jews came to Portugal seeking permanent refuge. King Joao II of Portugal allowed them to enter because he was preparing for war against the Moors and wanted to take advantage of their wealth and expertise in weapon-making. At a price of 100 Cruzados a family, 630 wealthy Jewish families were granted permanent residence. A number of craftsmen, skilled in making weapons, were also allowed to become permanent residence. The rest were permitted to stay in Portugal for eight months, upon payment of 8 cruzados per adult. At the end of those eight months, shipping was still not available, so the King forfeited Jewish liberty and declared the remaining Jews slaves."
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Let them in and exploit them"
                 command = { type = cash value = 200 }
                 command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 36 }
                 command = { type = land value = 100 }
                 command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = 1 } 
                 command = { type = population which = 434 value = 5000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 441 value = 10000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 442 value = 5000 }}
      action_b ={ 
		name = "Let them in and don't exploit them"
                 command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 36 }
                 command = { type = land value = 100 }
                 command = { type = stability value = -1 }
                 command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -100 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 2 }
                 command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
                 command = { type = population which = 434 value = 5000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 441 value = 10000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 442 value = 5000 }
                 command = { type = sleepevent which = 260051 }}
      action_c ={ 
		name = "Refuse to let them in"
                 command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 50 }
                 command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
                 command = { type = sleepevent which = 260174 }
                 command = { type = sleepevent which = 260175 }
                 command = { type = sleepevent which = 260051 }}}
event = {
	id = 260174
      trigger = { exists = SPA NOT = { war = { country = POR country = SPA }}}                
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Expulsion of the Jews from Portugal"
	desc = "When Manuel I ascended to the throne, to solidify his position he married Princess Isabel of Spain. Isabel told Manuel that she would only marry him if he expelled the Jews. So Manuel issued a decree forcing all Jews to leave Portugal by October 1497. He tried to convert as many Jews to Christianity as he could to keep them in Portugal. Jewish parents were ordered to take their children to Lisbon. Upon arrival, the parents were informed that their children were going to be taken away from them and were to be given to Catholic families to be raised as good Catholics. Some parents agreed to be baptized, along with their children, while others succumbed and handed over their babies. In October 1497, about 20,000 Jews came to Lisbon to prepare for departure to other lands. They were herded into the courtyard of Os estaos and were approached by priests trying to convert them. Those who did not convert were told they forfeited their freedom and would become slaves."
	date = { month = october year = 1497 } 
	offset = 30
      deathdate = { month = january year = 1515 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Expel all those that won't convert"
                 command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 50 }
                 command = { type = dynastic which = SPA }
                 command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }}
      action_b ={ 
		name = "Expel all of them"
                 command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 50 }
                 command = { type = dynastic which = SPA }
                 command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
                 command = { type = population which = 434 value = -1000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 441 value = -5000 }
                 command = { type = population which = 442 value = -1000 }
                 command = { type = infra value = -200 }
                 command = { type = sleepevent which = 260175 }}
       action_c ={ 
		name = "Free all of them"
                 command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -75 } 
                 command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
                 command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = -1 } 
                 command = { type = stability value = -1 }}}
event = {
	id = 260175
	random = no
	country = POR
	name = "Seizure of the New Christian's property"
	desc = "Popular support for a Portugese Inquisition surfaced in 1531, when many Christians blamed the New Christians for the recent earthquake. Pope Clement VII authorized the Inquisition and the first auto-da-fe trial took place in Lisbon on September 20, 1540. The right to seize and confiscate the property of the accused led to the arrest of every prominent "New Christian" family. Once arrested, death was only escaped if one admitted to Judaizing and implicated friends and family. Other sentences included public admission of the alleged sins, the obligatory wearing of a special penitential habit and burning at the stake. Urged by greed, eventually even genuine Christians were martyred. Attempting to evade the Inquisition, many Portugese Marrano families fled to Amsterdam, Salonika and other places across the Old and New worlds."
	style = 1
	date = { month = september year = 1540 } 
	offset = 30
      deathdate = { month = january year = 1560 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Seize their property"
                 command = { type = cash   value = 200 }
                 command = { type = domestic   which = innovative value = -1 }
                 command = { type = population   which = 434 value = -1000 }
                 command = { type = population   which = 441 value = -5000 }
                 command = { type = population   which = 442 value = -1000 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -4 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -4 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -4 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -1 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -1 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = population   which = -1 value = 100 }
                 command = { type = trigger   which = 260176 }
                 command = { type = trigger   which = 260177 }}
      action_b ={ 
		name = "Leave them alone"
                 command = { type = religion   which = catholic }}}
event = {
	id = 260176
	random = no
	province = 358
	name = "Jewish refugees from Portugal"
	desc = "Attempting to evade the Inquisition, many Portugese Marrano families fled to Amsterdam, Salonika and other places across the Old and New worlds."
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Good"
                 command = { type = provincetax which = 358 value = 1 }
                 command = { type = population  which = 358 value = 3000 }}}
event = {
	id = 260177
	random = no
	province = 339
	name = "Jewish refugees from Portugal"
	desc = "Attempting to evade the Inquisition, many Portugese Marrano families fled to Amsterdam, Salonika and other places across the Old and New worlds."
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Good"
                 command = { type = provincetax which = 339 value = 1 }
                 command = { type = population which = 339 value = 3000 }}}
I have some more comments, but they'll have to wait until later.
 

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sturmvogel said:
There are some problems with the current event 3150. First off the date is wrong as the peace with Granada included freedom of worship, which wasn't violated by the Church until around the turn of the century. Only Granada revolted, but the Moors were affected in all of southern Spain, although the mass expulsion wasn't until much later. I think that IDLF's version would generally be a good replacement although I really don't know why he makes Spain go counterreform at this time. The dates and the text are clearly superior to the version currently in the game.

event = {
id = 3150
trigger = { owned = { province = 444 data = SPA } atwar = no }
random = no
country = SPA
name = "Forced conversion of the Moors"
desc = "Francisco Jimenez de Cisneros, who had been archbishop of Toledo since 1495, was impatient with the slow progress of converting the Mudejars and asked for permission to pursue a more rigorous policy. The new phase consisted of mass baptisisms with compulsory conversions. Some of the Moors of Granada immigrated to escape the forced conversions."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1499 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1530 }
action_a ={
name = "Expel all those who won't convert!"
command = { type = religion which = counterreform }
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -2 }
command = { type = population which = 444 value = -10000 }
command = { type = revolt which = 444 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 444 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 445 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 438 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 443 value = catholic }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3654 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3652 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3657 }}
action_b ={
name = "Leave the Mudejars be"
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -2 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }}}

Furthermore I like the Portugese subsequent events although I'd trigger them in 3150
Well the CRC religion is nonsensical as it is not allowed until counter-reformation becomes available, so it is best to eliminate that.
Regarding the reduction in population, it is way off. The massive expulsion was that of 1609. In 1502 only a minority of Muslims chose to leave. This is reported by most historians, that know about it, because of the number of ships commisioned for transportation. A population value of 2000 is more appropriate.

For the rest I agree. Torquemada had nothing to do with it. Neither the Inquisition that could only act upon Christians, not Muslims or Jews.

Regarding the Portuguese events, those are part of the EP incredible array of greatly benefitial events for POR without much justification. Spanish Jews went all over the place, not only Portugal. A modest benefit (let's say 50D) could be all right, but those pop numbers, money and military investments are ridiculous.
 

Toio

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@fodoron

few things on Spanish Leaders file

- great work

- a problem I have is with the Iberic naming of all foreign leaders that led POR or SPA commands.
I find this difficult to stomach in that the internet has different naming (ie correct naming) of these leaders and yet to glorify Spain , you have given them the spanish translation . an example is
Americo Vespucci a florentine born was born with the birth name of Americo Vespucci and not what you named him with.

If this weird naming persists then in the future, problems will occur when another modder will insert into the game a americo vespucci.
I think we need to take there birthname as a standard, except in cases like barbarossa etc


- while on Vespucci I have found this from the net

The voyage completed by Vespucci between May 1499 and June 1500 as navigator of an expedition of four ships sent from Spain under the command of Alonso de Ojeda is certainly authentic. (This is the second expedition of the traditional series.) Since Vespucci took part as navigator, he certainly cannot have been inexperienced; but it does not seem possible that he had made a previous voyage (1497-98) in this area (i.e., around the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast from Florida to Chesapeake Bay), though this matter remains unresolved.

It seems he was not the commander , as the command was with Alonso de Ojeda.
this was his Spanish "trip"



Under Portuguese auspices Vespucci completed a second expedition, which set off from Lisbon on May 13, 1501. After a halt at the Cape Verde Islands, the expedition traveled southwestward, reached the coast of Brazil toward Cape St. Augustine, sighted (January 1502) Guanabara Bay (Rio de Janeiro's bay), and certainly sailed as far as the Río de la Plata, which Vespucci was the first European to discover. In all probability the ships took a quick run still farther south, along the coast of Patagonia (in present-day southern Argentina). The return route is unknown. The ships anchored at Lisbon on July 22, 1502.

Under POR



It is uncertain whether Vespucci took part in yet another expedition (1503-04) for the Portuguese government (it is said that he may have been with one under Gonzalo Coelho). In any case, this expedition contributed no fresh knowledge.

Again under POR


Subsequently, Vespucci returned to the service of Spain and certainly, in the capacity of piloto mayor ("master navigator"), helped to prepare other expeditions, but he never again joined one in person.

Some scholars have held Vespucci to be an ignorant usurper of the merits of others.


it seems to me his dates you have under spain 1496 - 1506 are incorrect and should be May 1499 to June 1500

his POR "trips" May 1502 to 1504 , are a longer tenure.

Should he fall under POR or remove him completly as he never was in command??
 

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Toio said:
@fodoron

few things on Spanish Leaders file

- great work
Thanks :)

Toio said:
- a problem I have is with the Iberic naming of all foreign leaders that led POR or SPA commands.
I find this difficult to stomach in that the internet has different naming (ie correct naming) of these leaders and yet to glorify Spain , you have given them the spanish translation . an example is
Americo Vespucci a florentine born was born with the birth name of Americo Vespucci and not what you named him with.

If this weird naming persists then in the future, problems will occur when another modder will insert into the game a americo vespucci.
I think we need to take there birthname as a standard, except in cases like barbarossa etc
Why? There are numerous exceptions. Cabot is not Cabotto as he should be. Father Kino is not Chini as he was born, etc, etc. In those days names were adapted to the country, and latinized. Américo is not the conversion from Amerigo, but from Americus. That is why the continent is named America. He signed many of his documents as Americus. So whatever we do is going to be just a convention. Spanish names are similar enough to the originals from Italy and Portugal as to offer little confusion. If you look for Queiroz in the web you will find very little, because he is known by his Spanish name Quirós. So any other convention also offers problems. I was fine with using English names for everybody even if that meant using Isabella instead of Isabel, but that was clearly not the path taken by AGCEEP, so my next choice is to use the local name as long as the guy can be identified by almost anybody. To avoid ambiguities I have introduced the rule of no titles except in unique cases (There was one leader that was twice), and any other name is also cited in the remark. So in Américo Vespucio file, it says remark = "AKA Amerigo Vespucci. When you are researching a leader, you should use all the different variations on his name, as misspellings are also common.
 

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Toio said:
- while on Vespucci I have found this from the net

The voyage completed by Vespucci between May 1499 and June 1500 as navigator of an expedition of four ships sent from Spain under the command of Alonso de Ojeda is certainly authentic. (This is the second expedition of the traditional series.) Since Vespucci took part as navigator, he certainly cannot have been inexperienced; but it does not seem possible that he had made a previous voyage (1497-98) in this area (i.e., around the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast from Florida to Chesapeake Bay), though this matter remains unresolved.

It seems he was not the commander , as the command was with Alonso de Ojeda.
this was his Spanish "trip"



Under Portuguese auspices Vespucci completed a second expedition, which set off from Lisbon on May 13, 1501. After a halt at the Cape Verde Islands, the expedition traveled southwestward, reached the coast of Brazil toward Cape St. Augustine, sighted (January 1502) Guanabara Bay (Rio de Janeiro's bay), and certainly sailed as far as the Río de la Plata, which Vespucci was the first European to discover. In all probability the ships took a quick run still farther south, along the coast of Patagonia (in present-day southern Argentina). The return route is unknown. The ships anchored at Lisbon on July 22, 1502.

Under POR



It is uncertain whether Vespucci took part in yet another expedition (1503-04) for the Portuguese government (it is said that he may have been with one under Gonzalo Coelho). In any case, this expedition contributed no fresh knowledge.

Again under POR


Subsequently, Vespucci returned to the service of Spain and certainly, in the capacity of piloto mayor ("master navigator"), helped to prepare other expeditions, but he never again joined one in person.

Some scholars have held Vespucci to be an ignorant usurper of the merits of others.


it seems to me his dates you have under spain 1496 - 1506 are incorrect and should be May 1499 to June 1500

his POR "trips" May 1502 to 1504 , are a longer tenure.

Should he fall under POR or remove him completly as he never was in command??

I have a hard time deciding about my opinion on Vespucio :)D). The guy was quite fantastic. In the first voyage that he mentions, the coordinates that he gives for coastal sighting (which would get him the primacy of continental landing over Colon) are wrong, and correspond to the interior of Honduras. This trip cannot be identified with the records of all the trips taken in those years. So probably it did not happen.

Regarding his date of February 1496, is based on an expedition that wrecked:

"A fin del año 1495, Berardi murió. Pero eso no detuvo para nada a Américo Vespucio quien llevó una flota de 4 navíos que salieron a la mar en febrero de 1496. Pero las naves naufragaron cerca de las costas de Cádiz, Rota y Tarifa.
En junio de 1496, al momento en que Vespucio dio cuentas de su naufragio, Cristóbal Colón regresaba de su segundo viaje y entabló con el florentino grandes relaciones."

He took a fleet of four ships from his own commercial emporium with the deceased Berardi, and managed to shipwreck in three places, Cádiz, Rota and Tarifa. My guess is a storm, as he was indeed a good sailor, you could not fool people about that.

You are right that he was the pilot of Ojeda, but in that expedition the fleet was split when they reached the coast of Guyanna and Ojeda went North, while Americo went South on command and explored Brasil before returning to Spain on his own.

"In May 1499, Vespucci was to set sail with Alonso de Hojeda. Amerigo went as an astronomer and "as a merchant" [Pohl 49]. Vespucci was given two ships, and the freedom to steer them where he wished as long as Hojeda gave his permission. However, Vespucci had other plans [Pohl 49]. Vespucci's ships sighted Brazil on June 27, 1499; this would be the first view Europeans had ever had of Brazil [Pohl 52]. His ships had also sailed to the Amazon River. On this voyage, Vespucci studied the stars in order to find the south celestial pole. This voyage would insight a transformation in Vespucci from businessman to scholar. Vespucci thought he was close to finding a route westward to Asia; however, Vespucci's ships would sail back to Spain in June of 1500 because they were not seaworthy anymore [Cohen].
Cohen, Jonathen. "The Naming of America: Vespucci's Good Name." Encounters 7: 16-20.
Pohl, Frederick. Amerigo Vespucci Pilot Major. New York: Octagon Books, Inc., 1966."

But you are wrong that he was the leader of the Portuguese expedition. That is not how the King Manuel of Portugal did business. He went as pilot or as some other category. Most serious works say that he participated, or that he went in the expedition. I don't know who led the expedition except for this in wikipedia:
"His next voyage in 1501–1502 was in service of Portugal, when he reached the bay of what is now Rio de Janeiro. The leader of this expedition was Matthew Cowen. On this voyage he sailed southward along the coast of South America. If his own account is to be believed, he reached the latitude of Patagonia before turning back; although this also seems doubtful, since his account does not mention the broad estuary of the Río de la Plata, which he must have seen if he had gotten that far south."

I don't know who this Matthew Cowen was, perhaps a Portuguese can tell us. Clearly Americo did not lead the expedition, no matter what a thousand misinformed web pages say.

So the end result is that he might not fullfill the requirements for independent leader. Was he a fraud? To a certain extent yes, but a very successful one.

Finally I reached the opinion that he should be in the game, because his contribution is far too important to be ignored. I put the first date of his first expedition in Feb 1496, as he was already working for the Crown as an outfitter for expeditions, and might very well have been attempting an exploration, and disable him in 1506, when his preparations for a new expedition were cancelled. 10 years for the guy who named America, and has became more famous than all the rest of the explorers bar Colón.

Just an opinion obviously.
 

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sturmvogel said:
I favor deleting him entirely as he never led an expedition.
Not entirely true. He led an expedition for half of the trip. The same can be said of other explorers like Váez de Torres, Cabrillo or Loaysa, or even Ferdinand Maghellan
sturmvogel said:
And it's not like there aren't enough other explorers at that time that overlap him.
None of them half as famous
 

Bordic

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About French Revolution and other neighbouring nations, as already stated in 1.40 bugfix I would like to add a duplicate event for Spain if it is still a French vassal:

Code:
# Reaction to the French revolution [COLOR=Yellow]-I- [/COLOR] #
# by Gauna and Fodoron with the help of the Spanish Forum
event = {
	id = 285070
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			event = 3342 # The French Revolution: Radical Republic
			event = 3779 # The French Revoltution: Republican Monarchy
		}
		[COLOR=Yellow]NOT = { event = 285111 } #SPA: Reaction to the French revolution 
		NOT = { vassal = { country = FRA country = SPA } }[/COLOR] 
	}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285070" #Reaction to the French revolution
	desc = "EVENTHIST285070"
	#-#

	date = { day = 10 month = august year = 1792 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 7 month = march year = 1793 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285070A" # oppose the republic #They are regicides
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POR value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = 50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285070B" # Do nothing #It is none of our business
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -1 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = POR value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = -25 }
	}
}



# Reaction to the French revolution [COLOR=Yellow]-II- [/COLOR] # [COLOR=Yellow](if Spain is still a French vassal since 1700)[/COLOR]
event = {
	id = 285111
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			event = 3342 #FRA: The French Revolution: Radical Republic
			event = 3779 #FRA: The French Revolution: Republican Monarchy
		}
		NOT = { event = 285070 } #SPA: Reaction to the French revolution
		vassal = { country = FRA country = SPA }
	}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "EVENTNAME285070" #Reaction to the French revolution
	desc = "EVENTHIST285070"
	#-#

	date = { day = 10 month = august year = 1792 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 7 month = march year = 1793 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285070A" # oppose the republic #They are regicides
		command = { type = breakvassal which = FRA } 
		command = { type = stability value = 2 } 
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POR value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = 50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME285070B" # Do nothing #It is none of our business
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -1 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = POR value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = -25 }
	}
}
In this way France won't have any longer the south secured from any external attack...
 

Norrefeldt

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Toio said:
- a problem I have is with the Iberic naming of all foreign leaders that led POR or SPA commands.
I find this difficult to stomach in that the internet has different naming (ie correct naming) of these leaders and yet to glorify Spain , you have given them the spanish translation . an example is
Americo Vespucci a florentine born was born with the birth name of Americo Vespucci and not what you named him with.

If this weird naming persists then in the future, problems will occur when another modder will insert into the game a americo vespucci.
I think we need to take there birthname as a standard, except in cases like barbarossa etc
This is how the Italian leader set use names, having the local variant. As monarchs go by local names I think this is good, and putting the birthname as a remark is good standard and helpful for the future.
 

Toio

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Norrefeldt said:
This is how the Italian leader set use names, having the local variant. As monarchs go by local names I think this is good, and putting the birthname as a remark is good standard and helpful for the future.

Give an example.

the issue is a non spanish "leader" working for the spanish should not have his name changed to an Iberic form, but should remain as the name given by his nation of birth and also the norm used in the internet.

What you are basically saying then, is that if a german leader fought in italy for tuscany as an example , then his german name should not be used , but his name converted to italian should be used.
 

Toio

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Fodoron said:
Not entirely true. He led an expedition for half of the trip. The same can be said of other explorers like Váez de Torres, Cabrillo or Loaysa, or even Ferdinand MaghellanNone of them half as famous

I agree with sturmvogel here,
Vespucci should be deleted and replaced by the commander of the expedition. that is

Ojeda, Alonso de (älōn'sō thā ōhā'thä) , c.1466–1515?, Spanish conquistador. He joined Columbus on his second voyage and in 1499—at first accompanied by Vespucci—explored the northeastern coast of South America. In 1508 he was made governor of territories of N South America. Near present Cartagena he was defeated by the Native Americans and virtually rescued by Diego de Nicuesa. Again he had trouble with the Native Americans and, leaving his men under the command of Francisco Pizarro, sought aid in Hispaniola. He reached Cuba, but his actions after arrival are obscure. His men abandoned the colony and were picked up not far from Cartagena by Enciso.

The 1499 trip was the only trip that Vespucci did for Spain, as all documentation indicate he was more active under POR.

The rules are set in the leaders thread,
must have command #2.
if he is too remain then his dates need amending.

as per below

Vespucci, Amerigo (ämārē'gō vāspūt'chē) , 1454–1512, Italian navigator in whose honor America was named, b. Florence. He entered the commercial service of the Medici and in 1492 moved to Seville. He accompanied Alonso de Ojeda in 1499, but by agreement the two separated shortly before land was sighted in the West Indies, and Vespucci alone explored the mouths of the Amazon. Subsequently he sailed along the northern shore of South America and among the islands. He returned to Spain in 1500, and in 1501 he entered Portuguese service to explore the southern coast of South America. Vespucci found the mouth of the Río de la Plata and probably went as far as lat. 50°S. He explored c.6,000 mi (9,700 km) of coastline,

for SPA till 1500, besides , he did more for POR than he did for SPA.
 

unmerged(29041)

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Toio said:
Give an example.
John Cabot = Giovanni Caboto
The internet should never be the norm for anything
 

Toio

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Fodoron said:
John Cabot = Giovanni Caboto
The internet should never be the norm for anything

As I said , from the net

John Cabot, Explorer

* Born: 1450 (?)
* Birthplace: Genoa, Italy (?)
* Died: 1498 (disappeared)
* Best Known As: Italian / English explorer of Newfoundland

Although little is known for certain about John Cabot, he is historically important because his explorations represent England's early claims on North America. By all accounts, Cabot was not English; he was born Giovanni Caboto, probably in Genoa, Italy around 1450. He later moved to Venice and became a naturalized citizen there around 1476, working as a mariner and trader in the eastern Mediterranean.


I am not trying to offend you, but lets get some normality here.

Just think on all other nations that this ruling (naming)would effect.
 

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Toio said:
for SPA till 1500, besides , he did more for POR than he did for SPA.
Here we go with your internet 10 lines of text based bold statements.
You should go and read a book on him if you have the slightest interest on what he did.
He did very very little for Portugal, and just participated in one expedition, maybe two, but never as a leader. In 1505 he became Spanish, and in 1508 he was named Major pilot for the Casa de Contratación. This post was the most important in Spanish exploration. He was the boss for any ship that departed Spain towards the New World. In 1508 he participated in the famous meeting with King Fernando, together with Juan de la Cosa, Vicente Yáñez Pinzón, and Juan Díaz de Solís that shaped the exploration policy of Spain. Those four were the most reputed sailors/explorers in Spain at the time.

We can discuss if he deserves to be in the game or not, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. But to say that he did more for Portugal than for Spain is absolutely wrong.
 

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Toio said:
As I said , from the net

I am not trying to offend you, but lets get some normality here.

Just think on all other nations that this ruling (naming)would effect.

Stop pasting trivial colored snips from internet. you are driving me nuts :wacko:

What I say is that in the game it should be John Cabot, because he became famous for England, and not Giovanni Caboto because he was born in Italy. According to you he should have his birthplace name.

I don't think that just because English is the norm in internet, that should mean that names have to be Englishized.
Isabel -> Isabella
Colón -> Columbus
Magallanes -> Magellan

We already decided that monarchs should have the name they received in their countries.
Charles of Ghent becomes Karl in Austria and Carlos in Spain. Those are not the most common internet version, that remains Charles V.

Internet is not the norm, nor it should be.