AGC-EEP: Iberian Peninsula

unmerged(6159) · Oct 21, 2003

Sorry I probably misread your post.

I'm for fantasy Granada events, but I'd like them to be realistic and balanced. This has come up many times before, and looking over old threads (Granada EEP, Granada EEP?, Granada Fantasy Events, and I'm quite sure that there are more threads).

I've realised that
1) I'm predictable
2) I repeat myself.

So far no-one has been willing to work through and get an event set ready to go.

I do like the capital moving events, but I think they need tighter triggers. I'd add
-Granada bigger than 7 provinces or so (I know they need 5 already but still)
-for Portugal Algarve not controlled and maybe not owned.
-for Castille & Spain, Murcia and Estremadura not controlled and maybe not owned. Possibly Valencia too.

My concern is that these events trigger much too early in the re-reconquista. I'd also move the Lisbon COT to Toledo when the capital moves. At the same time the cot value for Toledo should be much reduced so that it will be a much smaller cot than Lisbon.

unmerged(12680) · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Sorry I probably misread your post.

No hard feelings, as I'm no native English speaker I can be a bit unclear at times.

I'm for fantasy Granada events, but I'd like them to be realistic and balanced. This has come up many times before, and looking over old threads (Granada EEP, Granada EEP?, Granada Fantasy Events, and I'm quite sure that there are more threads).

I've realised that
1) I'm predictable
2) I repeat myself.

So far no-one has been willing to work through and get an event set ready to go.

Being no native of the EEP forums, I had no idea that there were several threads dedicated to little Granada, and without the search function, I had little hope of ever finding out.

So, thanks for digging these up! I'll read them and see if there are any ideas I can steal...

I do like the capital moving events, but I think they need tighter triggers. I'd add
-Granada bigger than 7 provinces or so (I know they need 5 already but still)
-for Portugal Algarve not controlled and maybe not owned.
-for Castille & Spain, Murcia and Estremadura not controlled and maybe not owned. Possibly Valencia too.

My concern is that these events trigger much too early in the re-reconquista. I'd also move the Lisbon COT to Toledo when the capital moves. At the same time the cot value for Toledo should be much reduced so that it will be a much smaller cot than Lisbon. [/B]

Yes, I thought about that, and I'll add triggers for Portugal to have Algarve under Granadan control or ownership, and for Spain/Castille Estramudia and Murcia should be under Granadan ownership or occupation.

As for the CoTs, isn't that a bit much help for the Granadan player? I don't want to give them a great advantage, but I'll add it, together with some events for it moving back to Lisbon.

Which reminds me, should there be events for Granada being pushed back and moving THEIR capital back to Granada? The Spaniards should have a shot at their reconquest, after all...

unmerged(6159) · Oct 21, 2003

Well they are about to take over Lisbon anyway, so moving the COT won't help them. In fact in would hurt them if the cot value for Toledo province is low enough, as it would be a smaller, but Granadan COT. Which makes sense to me.

Norrefeldt · Oct 21, 2003

This seems promising, but I'd like to read all the threads before commenting. One thing with your events anti_strunt, do you think you could comment them a little, like putting in the #province name after those lines? It would make it easier to follow and much better when they are put into event files and read by someone later on?

unmerged(6159) · Oct 21, 2003

They are very repetitive, I tell you!

unmerged(12680) · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
They are very repetitive, I tell you!

Yes, many seem to follow the standard "I think this-and-this should be in!" "OK, here are some ideas for events" "Great! But I can't script/don't have to time..." ARGH <- Sound of thread slowly dying. Hopefully this won't be the case this time.

Oh, and province name comments are a-coming.

EDIT: Here are the events, with province names added, as well as more triggers for capital movement, and a CoT mover too.

event = {
id = 1
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
NOT = {
relation = { country = SPA value = 150 }
relation = { country = CAS value = 150 }
}
owned = { province = 439 data = -1 } #Toledo
owned = { province = 444 data = -1 } #Granada
owned = { province = 445 data = -1 } #Gibraltar
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 440 data = -1 } #Estramadura
owned = { province = 443 data = -1 } #Andalusia
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 440 data = -1 } #Estramadura
owned = { province = 438 data = -1 } #Murcia
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 440 data = -1 } #Estramadura
owned = { province = 437 data = -1 } #Valencia
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 443 data = -1 } #Andalusia
owned = { province = 438 data = -1 } #Murcia
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 443 data = -1 } #Andalusia
owned = { province = 437 data = -1 } #Valencia
}
AND = {
owned = { province = 438 data = -1 } #Murcia
owned = { province = 437 data = -1 } #Valencia
}
}
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "We could get some cores now!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "No, historical is the way to go"

}
action_b = {
name = "Lets get those provinces back!"
command = { type = vp which = 100 }
command = { type = capital which = 439 } #Toledo
command = { type = addcore which = 439 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -400 }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = -400 }
command = { type = relation which = ARG value = -300 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = -300 }
command = { type = relation which = NAV value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = ARA value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = ALD value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = MOR value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = TUN value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = XHO value = 50 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = SPA value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = CAS value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = ARG value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = POR value = 120 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -3 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -3 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -3 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
command = { type = trigger which = 2 }
command = { type = trigger which = 3 }
command = { type = trigger which = 4 }
command = { type = trigger which = 5 }
command = { type = trigger which = 6 }
}
}

event = {
id = 2
random = no
country = SPA
name = "The Granadans are arising!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Lets stop them!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = 120 }
command = { type = alliance which = CAS }
command = { type = alliance which = ARG }
command = { type = alliance which = POR }
command = { type = alliance which = NAV }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = ARG value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = NAV value = 150 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
}
}

event = {
id = 3
random = no
country = CAS
name = "The Granadans are arising!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Lets stop them!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = 120 }
command = { type = alliance which = SPA }
command = { type = alliance which = ARG }
command = { type = alliance which = POR }
command = { type = alliance which = NAV }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = ARG value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = NAV value = 150 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
}
}

event = {
id = 4
random = no
country = ARG
name = "The Granadans are arising!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Lets stop them!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = 120 }
command = { type = alliance which = CAS }
command = { type = alliance which = SPA }
command = { type = alliance which = POR }
command = { type = alliance which = NAV }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = NAV value = 150 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
}
}

event = {
id = 5
random = no
country = POR
name = "The Granadans are arising!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Lets stop them!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = 120 }
command = { type = alliance which = CAS }
command = { type = alliance which = ARG }
command = { type = alliance which = SPA }
command = { type = alliance which = NAV }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = ARG value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = NAV value = 150 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
}
}

event = {
id = 6
random = no
country = NAV
name = "The Granadans are arising!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Lets stop them!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = 120 }
command = { type = alliance which = CAS }
command = { type = alliance which = ARG }
command = { type = alliance which = POR }
command = { type = alliance which = SPA }
command = { type = relation which = CAS value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = ARG value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = 150 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = 150 }
command = { type = setflag which = granadarises }
}
}

event = {
id = 7
trigger = {
war = { country = POR country = GRA }
owned = { province = 441 data = -1 } #Tago
owned = { province = 434 data = -1 } #Oporto
control = { province = 434 data = -1 }
control = { province = 441 data = GRA } #Tago
control = { province = 442 data = GRA } #Algarve
control = { province = 440 data = GRA } #Estramadura
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = POR
name = "The Granadans are at our capital!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "We must evacuate Lisbon!"
command = { type = capital which = 434 } #Oporto
}
}

event = {
id = 8
trigger = {
war = { country = CAS country = GRA }
owned = { province = 431 data = -1 } #Cantabria
owned = { province = 436 data = -1 } #Castilla
control = { province = 431 data = -1 }
control = { province = 436 data = GRA } #Castilla
control = { province = 440 data = GRA } #Estramadura
control = { province = 437 data = GRA } #Valencia
control = { province = 439 data = GRA } #Toledo, not really needed, but hey!
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = CAS
name = "The Granadans are at our capital!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "We must evacuate Madrid!"
command = { type = capital which = 431 } #Cantabria
}
}

event = {
id = 9
trigger = {
war = { country = SPA country = GRA }
owned = { province = 431 data = -1 } #Cantabria
owned = { province = 436 data = -1 } #Castilla
control = { province = 431 data = -1 }
control = { province = 436 data = GRA } #Castilla
control = { province = 440 data = GRA } #Estramadura
control = { province = 437 data = GRA } #Valencia
control = { province = 439 data = GRA } #Toledo, not really needed, but hey!
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = SPA
name = "The Granadans are at our capital!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "We must evacuate Madrid!"
command = { type = capital which = 431 } #Cantabria
}
}

event = {
id = 10
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 436 data = -1 } #Castilla
NOT = { core = { province = 436 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 436 } #Castilla
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 436 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 436 }
}
}

event = {
id = 11
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 437 data = -1 } #Valencia
NOT = { core = { province = 437 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 437 } #Valencia
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 437 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 437 }
}
}

event = {
id = 12
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 438 data = -1 } #Murcia
NOT = { core = { province = 438 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 438 } #Murcia
}
}

event = {
id = 13
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 440 data = -1 } #Estramadura
NOT = { core = { province = 440 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 440 } #Estramadura
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 440 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 440 }
}
}

event = {
id = 14
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 441 data = -1 } #Tago
NOT = { core = { province = 441 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 441 } #Tago
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 441 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 441 }
}
}

event = {
id = 15
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 442 data = -1 } #Algarve
NOT = { core = { province = 442 date = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 442 } #Algarve
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 442 }
command = { type = religiousrevolt which = 442 }
}
}

event = {
id = 16
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 443 data = -1 } #Andalusia
NOT = { core = { province = 443 data = -1 } }
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "Reclaiming our ancient territory!"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let us reclaim this province!"
command = { type = addcore which = 443 } #Andalusia
}
}

event = {
id = 17
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 2
owned = { province = 441 data = -1 } #Tago
owned = { province = 439 data = -1 } #Toledo
core = { province = 441 data = -1 }
cot = 441
flag = granadarise
}
random = no
country = GRA
name = "The end of the trading centre in Tago"
desc = "Hum, some good texts needs to be written by someone with skills in doing so."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
action_a = {
name = "Let the trade in Cordoba instead!"
command = { type = removecot which = 441 } #Tago
command = { type = cot which = 439 } #Toledo
command = { type = merchants = 3 }
}
}

anowack · Oct 22, 2003

Originally posted by Garbon
To answer this question, no we don't have any post-1492 monarchs. Part of the reason is that their is a historical line to follow (Boabdil did have children and two different wives + family in Morocco) but its hard to trace that line as it gets obscure once you are one generation removed. I still haven't been able to find out what happened to Boabdil's sons after he fled to Morocco...

Well, after one generation, one can assume that the vastly changed circumstances of being the rulers of a resurgent Granada rather than refugees would change the family tree beyond recognition, anyway. Below I've stuck what I did, on the off chance it might be useful to someone.

Code:

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 03730 } 
	name = "Muhammad XII" 
	startdate = { year = 1487 } 
	deathdate = {
		month = march
		day = 18 
		year = 1530 
	} 
	DIP = 4 
	MIL = 4 
	ADM = 4 
}

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx0 } 
	startdate = {
		day = 18 
		month = march 
		year = 1530
	} 
	deathdate = {
		day = 9 
		month = april
		year = 1558
	} 
	name = "Muhammad XIII*" 
	DIP = 3 
	ADM = 5 
	MIL = 3 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx1} 
	startdate = {
		day = 9 
		month = april
		year = 1558
	} 
	deathdate = {
		day = 23 
		month = may 
		year = 1579 
	} 
	name = "Uthman I*" 
	DIP = 5 
	ADM = 4 
	MIL = 4 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx2} 
	startdate = {
		day = 23 
		month = may 
		year = 1579 
	} 
	deathdate = {
		day = 1 
		month = september 
		year = 1626
	} 
	name = "Yusuf V*" 
	DIP = 8 
	ADM = 8 
	MIL = 8 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx3 } 
	startdate = {
		day = 1 
		month = september 
		year = 1626
	} 
	deathdate = {
		day = 9 
		month = november 
		year = 1655 
	} 
	name = "Murad I*" 
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 8 
	MIL = 4 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx4} 
	startdate = {
		day = 9 
		month = november 
		year = 1655 
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		day = 4 
		month = july 
		year = 1668 
	} 
	name = "Muhammad XIV*" 
	DIP = 4 
	ADM = 4 
	MIL = 3 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx5 } 
	startdate = { 
		day = 4 
		month = july 
		year = 1668 
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		day = 26 
		month = september 
		year = 1682 
	} 
	name = "Yusuf VI*" 
	DIP = 4 
	ADM = 5 
	MIL = 4 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx6 } 
	startdate = { 
		day = 26 
		month = september 
		year = 1682 
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		day = 11
		month = october
		year = 1723 
	} 
	name = "Uthman II*" 
	DIP = 3 
	ADM = 3 
	MIL = 3 
}
 
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx7} 
	startdate = { 
		day = 11
		month = october
		year = 1723 
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		day = 11 
		month = january 
		year = 1760 
	} 
	name = "Murad II*" 
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 6 
	MIL = 7
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx8} 
	startdate = { 
		day = 11 
		month = january 
		year = 1760 
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		day = 21 
		month = march 
		year = 1798
	} 
	name = "Yusuf VII*" 
	DIP = 5 
	ADM = 7 
	MIL = 3 
} 

historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = xxxx9 } 
	startdate = { 
		day = 21 
		month = march 
		year = 1798
	} 
	deathdate = { 
		year = 1836
	} 
	name = "Muhammad XV*"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 2
}

unmerged(2456) · Oct 22, 2003

Those events are fine, except claiming the Caliphate of Cordoba should lower relations with Hejaz (ARA) and Jalayrids (IRA) atleast by 50, probably 75-100. They didn't like the idea of the 1st Caliphate (for many reasons) and would certainly frown on its revival. Some surrounding ones should also lower relations with Granada some, such as Qara Koyunlu (QAR), Yemen/Aden (ADE), Ottomoans, etc.

unmerged(8894) · Oct 22, 2003

I would also suggest it lowers relations with France, Provence, and Foix as a resurgent Granada would be a major cause of concern for them and lower relations with the Papal States as the pope would not want to see Catholics under their rule. Perhaps also trigger a call for Crusade event in response?

unmerged(2456) · Oct 22, 2003

My first issue with your sequence, is first that claiming the Caliphate of Cordoba at this late a date is absurd, considering the amount of dynasties that have existed in Iberia since that time. My second is that I know you weren't planning on stopping on just those cores, as it seems that you are planning a large amount of fantasy off of this Caliphate idea, and I think that the support for this is weak.

Maybe, but Granada, being where the capital was, would have had the stongest claim of all the Taifa states.

I however was planning on little more than that. They'd have a chance to get cores on a few extra iberian provinces, onces that the Caliphate previously held, if for a short period, before, but those would be much harder to achieve.

unmerged(1047) · Oct 22, 2003

Considering that there wouldn't be much left to stand in their way anyhow, and the Caliphate (correct me if I'm wrong) may have claimed the territory and there were no natural barriers....

... I'd personally like to see, however difficult it may be to do so, the events allowing for the possibility of Granada expanding all the way up to the Pyrennes (up to the edge of French culture, but not into it). In such a case, Portugal and Aragon would (in my vision) have the option of continuing the fight from offshore (moving capitals to the Azores and the Balares) and Castile would, as well, assuming it had any colonies (perhaps Cape Verde, if it exists as a Castilian colony, or Santo Domingo as the capital of the Caribbean territories, if they have colonies...)

Of course, diplomatically, they'd piss everyone off in doing so - and I mean everyone, short of the pagan countries. The christians would hate the whole idea of the resurgence of Muslims in Western Europe (even if the reformation were under way, in this case I think the protestants would have stuck up for the catholics), and the Muslims would (as mentioned above) have problems with the historical justification of Granada's claims.

Also, France would probably wind up being the leader once things got to that point, so (in terms of "liberating" Iberia) I'd even go so far as to suggest that once Granada takes out the majority of Portugal, Castile and Aragon, perhaps there should be an event giving France the culture and cores throughout Iberia (in order to push it into leading a second reconquista).

doktarr · Oct 22, 2003

My main issue now is that Granada is quite similar to Byzantium, weak at start and supposed to be gobbled up by a nearby major, but with an intressting history and a potential for some very intresting alt-history, but while Byz. had a load of events and plenty of fantasy stuff, poor Granada had none.

The biggest difference I see is that, given computer control, Granada never wins. I mean, I have NEVER seen an AI Granada beat an AI Spain. Sure, a human player can do it, but humans can complete a WC with just about anybody. Byzantium, on the other hand, very frequently holds off the Ottomans for quite a while, even in the vanilla GC. I've even seen AI Byzantium carve out a good chunk of its cores a few times.

So I guess my point is that, if anything, giving Granada some fantasy events is even more harmless than giving them to Byzantium. An AI Byzantium may stumble across the fantasy restoration events once in a while, but as long as you have to actually capture territory to trigger the events, the Granada events will only show up for human players.

unmerged(2456) · Oct 22, 2003

Actually I did see Granada once in a Vanilla GC with an Alliance with Fez and Morroco, beat an alliance with Castile, Aragon, Portugal and Naples. Granada took back its 2 cores and kept them for long after Castile became Spain.

unmerged(2456) · Oct 22, 2003

Originally posted by Sheridan
Of course, diplomatically, they'd piss everyone off in doing so - and I mean everyone, short of the pagan countries. The christians would hate the whole idea of the resurgence of Muslims in Western Europe (even if the reformation were under way, in this case I think the protestants would have stuck up for the catholics), and the Muslims would (as mentioned above) have problems with the historical justification of Granada's claims.

Not nessasarily.
First, I said only the areas around Bagdad, Mecca, Medina, Jeruselum, etc would really not support it. They'd have 2 reasons, the first which is moot now.
1> Islamic leaders never intended to conquer Iberia, just raid it. This was mostly Arabs, and the more well-to-do arabs who supported this idea and you can bet the recently converted islamic people and the lower-caste arabs didn't like this so they ignored Mecca and Bagdad's orders.
2> Ironically the Caliphate of Cordoba, and specifically the city of Granada became a cultural center to rival even Mecca and Bagdad. It would be this fear that once again (espially for Bagdad as Mecca would always have importance) that they'd be eclipsed in cultural and religious athority by a "upstart" nation.

Now second, there would be those who would support the growing power of Granada as the new Caliphate. Mostly the western Aftrican nations (Fez, Morocco, Algeiers) who are closer have more in common with the Iberian Muslims than they do with the Arab Muslims.

Third. an invasion to where you say, would cause alarm, espically with France and Italy, but a country like England might look on Granada as it did spain in its wars against france, only IMO even better as an ally because they, unlike Spain, aren't bound by the Pope's decrees and are more likely to aid against a RC France than a RC Spain would be.

German nations might support a war, if it was to their benifit, but if it looked like Granada had finally reached its furtherst inrodes into Europe, they'd probably ignore them or again use them as allies, depending upon cirumstances.

So basically, the only nations I can see always coming on board would be French and Italian nations (and only the southern French ones ie. Britiany wouldn't likely and probably not Venice as they'd be more concerned with the other front).

Also, France would probably wind up being the leader once things got to that point, so (in terms of "liberating" Iberia) I'd even go so far as to suggest that once Granada takes out the majority of Portugal, Castile and Aragon, perhaps there should be an event giving France the culture and cores throughout Iberia (in order to push it into leading a second reconquista).

That may be going too far. What you're proposing is basically a round-about way out uniting France and Spain, something opposed by every nation in Europe, except France and Spain, at the time it was historically suppose to happen.

doktarr · Oct 22, 2003

Originally posted by Jinnai
Actually I did see Granada once in a Vanilla GC with an Alliance with Fez and Morroco, beat an alliance with Castile, Aragon, Portugal and Naples. Granada took back its 2 cores and kept them for long after Castile became Spain.

OK, sure, Granada can occasionally SURVIVE against Spain for quite a while. But I've never heard of an AI Granada actually capturing additional territory from Spain. On the other hand, I've seen the Byzantines get a few licks in on the Ottomans several times. In the first game I played in 1.07, the Ottomans didn't finally beat the Byzantines until the mid-1500s.

Archaalen · Oct 22, 2003

Why would the Caliphate be that widely hated? True, Catholic Europe would hate it for sure, and if it happened early enough, the Protestants would inherit that hatred. The Ottomans, on the other hand, would probably like their revival. One more Muslim state is one more ally in their near-continuous wars. Also, and this is very important, Ottoman and Cordoban territorial interests do not intersect very much, if at all. Algeria is the only real sticky point, and that could have it's own event(s). Moreover, the two of them hating eachother would serve little point, since until rather late in the game or until one of them gets into Italy in a big way, they don't really have an effective way to attack each other directly. On the other hand, and alliance would be very useful to both of them, since any Mediterranean country would have to watch for attacks from two directions, and the Ottomans will honestly need help in the later game.

unmerged(1047) · Oct 22, 2003

My idea wasn't so much a "roundabout way to unite France and Spain" (which I really meant Iberia, all of it) so much as having France pick up the banner of crusade against the Muslims after they wipe out Iberia. The idea was that, once the Iberian countries are no longer able to do so, France could step in and be seen as a liberator by the conquered Christians.

Besides, historically the union of France and Spain was opposed because of the fact that BOTH were major powers - which in this case would be far from true; Spain would have almost ceased to exist, and France would be obligating itself to liberate it from the "heathen" Muslim conquerors... I would think that the other European powers might even *support* it as a means of distracting France from overseas colonialism and conquest. (A specifically targetted French AI that reduced France's other interests and listed *only* Granada and maybe a couple of the NWAfrican Muslim states on its kill list would be nice, but might be going a touch far from our topic.)

Of course, the concept was that in order for this to happen, Granada would have to have already conquered all of Iberia right up to the French borderlands themselves, which is beyond (I believe) even the most extreme reach the Caliphate ever had - they were never able to, historically, hold territory on the French border, although they did (as I recall) stage a few campaigns into southwestern France at their height.

Basically, the concept was meant as a means of placing a major power (in this case, France) as an ultimate adversary, counterbalance, or stopper to an extremely successful (and almost definitely human-played) Granada, which at that point would also be a major power to rival the Turks, Austria, Russia or England in strength... once the Iberian countries themselves are no longer able to stop Granada.

Also, if things go at all historically in France, it's entirely possible that they will be the only country with a land border with Granada, and in cases like that it's far too easy (I speak from experience) to "buy peace" by buttering up that one country. The Iberian CB's I propose giving to France in this case would constantly sour those relations, preventing or at least making difficult this sort of strategy by Granada.

----

As for previous comments:

Per England, Germany, etc... I didn't really mean much by what I said. Diplomatically, their relations with a Granada of that size would probably be very bad, unless of course they tried to use it (as you said) as a counterbalance to France. But Austria is usually just as effective at that as Granada would be - perhaps more so, because Granada's going to incur a LOT of inflation getting there. I did not mean to imply that England, Germany, etc. would in any way act directly against Granada (wars, etc).

I hadn't really thought about the Italian states and their predicament of being stuck in the center - I think that really depends on how the Turks are doing as well, plus how unified the Italians are (a unified Italy could get involved, but I doubt a fragmented Italy would be able to spare the attention to care.)

France would be in the best position to worry and to do something about Granada once it got too powerful for Portugal, Castile, and Aragon to stop it. In the real world, there's always some sort of balance of power (in this period, usually France vs. England and Spain, etc.), so I thought France vs. all of Iberia (under Muslim rule) only made sense. If a human player does manage to drive the Christian armies beyond the Pyrennes, it shouldn't suddenly become a cakewalk simply because none of the AI countries have CB's on them and therefore won't bother attacking.

Also, just tonight I saw an AI Granada take Andalusia and Murcia from Castile in their first war (I was financially backing Granada a bit, but not allied as I was busy in a large two-front war in my 'homeland'), then get crushed by the combined weight of Portugal, Castile and Aragon in the next two, revolt back into existence (with both starting provinces), take Murcia again, and then get driven back down to one province as a vassal of Spain - all by 1510.

unmerged(2456) · Oct 22, 2003

First as to the relations with Ottomans and other muslim nations.

Its true that countries like the Ottomans wouldn't have direct contestment to Granada claiming the Caliphate, and might on some level be thankful. However, they are tied to the religious leaers in the old world, ie Arabia, who never endorsed an Islamic state in Iberia (atleast via conuest), and only reluctantly admited once the dust was settled that a legitimate one did exist. This is why a nation like the Ottomans get a -25 only...just enough to show a hit from the old-world influential leaders. I meant for a nation like them to have the lowering be only temporary, in the long run, they'd likely, if possible, work together.

On to the matter of France.

I agree entirely with your reasoning, just not the way you want it implimented.

I agree that France would be the one to halt Granada (likely...or Burgandy if theyre still around...they always kicked ass in my games), but that doesn't mean giving them everything you say.

I agree, they should get a Cacus Belli against Granada, get an Iberian culture and get some shields on Iberia. Granada, aka Caliphate of Cordoba reborn, would be recognized as legitimate power and dealt with accordingly. At the most, they should not get cores on Granada or Tolledo. These never fell, ever (supposably) in the reconquista and so none of the nations could ever say they actually had them at any time when they went to France for aid. IMO though, France should only get cores on territories never held ever by the Caliphate of Cordoba. These France would have no real dispute over because Granada was claiming the title of Caliphate of Cordoba which had defined, if fluctuatlng, territory.

Finally, as other nations, unless they're threatening them directly, (such as Italy and southern Germany) or a major ally of theirs, i can't see them really putting out an effort to do more than contain them. In fact I'd say that some on the non-RC/CRC nations might ally with them, if they stopped their inward progression and didn't become a powerful colonial power.

unmerged(1047) · Oct 22, 2003

some shields on Iberia. Granada, aka Caliphate of Cordoba reborn, would be recognized as legitimate power and dealt with accordingly. At the most, they should not get cores on Granada or Tolledo. These never fell, ever (supposably) in the reconquista and so none of the nations could ever say they actually had them at any time when they went to France for aid. IMO though, France should only get cores on territories never held ever by the Caliphate of Cordoba. These France would have no real dispute over because Granada was claiming the title of Caliphate of Cordoba which had defined, if fluctuatlng, territory.

Remember, though, that the Caliphate (to a Catholic France) would be seen as infidels to be crusaded against, not necessarily a legitimate government. And that at the extreme point I'd have France stepping in, the Iberian powers wouldn't so much be asking France to step in, as France would have to do so because Granada was already on its borders and the Iberian powers virtually destroyed. (I'm thinking Granada holding Navarre and Gerona here.)

Still, as far as territory is concerned... I think that in this case France would at least lay claim to Lisbon, Madrid and Barcelona (as the former Portuguese, Castilian and Aragonese capitals) and all lands to the north. Claims south of there (the historic "core" of Granada - Andalusia, Toledo, Murcia and southward) might be a bit more of a stretch, but keep in mind that the Iberian powers (in the 1400's) did claim all the way to the Strait of Gibraltar (and managed it by 1500).

As far as ANY other countries getting involved, other than diplomatically (relations tweeked a bit at the same time as France picks up the claims, as well as possibly at earlier points in the conquest) I really don't see it happening, except POSSIBLY a united Italy. And even they would probably have other issues (Austria, the Ottomans) to worry about. France's allies might get dragged in in the wars, but that's up to France, not something I'd put in an event. (Actually, this plan would simply call for 'encouraging' the French AI to do something, not scripted wars or anything like that.)

What I was envisioning was more of the other countries saying, "Hey, France, how about you go liberate Iberia from those Muslim conquerors and let us worry about the rest of the world for a few decades?" and therefore agreeing to respect French conquests there as a way of distracting it away from the (already wide open) colonial game. ------ Keep in mind that in this circumstance, Portugal and Castile/Spain, two historically powerful colonial nations will be destroyed or so weak as to be unable to carry on large-scale colonialism (unable to afford the colonists) and that leaves only France, England and the Netherlands out of the traditional colonial nations. Also, the Mediterranean powers will be effectively bottled up, so England, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, etc. stand to benefit from this situation.

unmerged(6159) · Oct 22, 2003

Anowak, like the list. To me, fantasy monarchs are fine, although it would be nice to get real people.

Originally posted by Archaalen
The Ottomans, on the other hand, would probably like their revival. One more Muslim state is one more ally in their near-continuous wars.

Kind of like Persia, or the Mamelukes?

Don't forget that the French and Ottomans were, in real life, very good allies, as (for instance) their combined conquest of Corisca shows.

If Granada has any kind of naval presence in the Mediterranean it's a potential threat to the Ottomans. There were only a handful of ports that could support large fleets in the Med, and Barcelona was second only to Constantinople. (In real life of course Barcelona was Christian throughout the Dark Ages.) If Granada is there they pose a serious threat to the Ottoman empire, particularly with all the disputed sucessions and exiled prices they produced. Granadine Iberia would provide an ideal launching pad for any pretenders, much better than the Italian and Persian refuges they used in real life. Not to mention the issue of the title "Caliphate", and the Ottoman assertions of supremacy in the muslim world. I think the Ottomans and Granadiens would inevitably have contested supremacy in the Med, with the Italians swinging to whichever side seemed to be less threatening.

Naples and Genoa would be deathly threatened by a Granada that occupies all of Spain anyway. Both had long histories of animosity with Catalonia as is.

I don't think that giving France the culture and cores is a good idea. Perhaps giving them Navarese culture, and cores to the Ebro (along the lines of Charlemagne's Empire), but anything beyond that I just don't see as French.

Wouldn't the French Protestants be able to use Granada the way that German Protestants used the Ottomans? Wouldn't this make a Calvinist France much more likely? Without the support of Spain how would the Ultra-Catholic faction have survived post-1592? And wouldn't a Calvinist France have been much more likely to have engaged in crusades in Spain? Just some thoughts.

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