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Andrelvis

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I think it would be a good idea making Galicia portuguese if Portugal gains it, maybe before 1580. It would particularly make sence with the Unified Iberia events, with two cultures so similar, the portuguese (now iberian) government probally would consider the whole area homogeneous, and I doubt it would have a great resistance by the galician population.

Ooh, good idea.
 

Toio

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I think it would be a good idea making Galicia portuguese if Portugal gains it, maybe before 1580. It would particularly make sence with the Unified Iberia events, with two cultures so similar, the portuguese (now iberian) government probally would consider the whole area homogeneous, and I doubt it would have a great resistance by the galician population.

there are a few issue to address if you go with this proposal.

1. what happens to CAS/SPA core on the province

2. If POR gain galicia prior to 1479 and it chnages to portuguese , then when the union of CAS and ARG occur, all castilian lands held by POR will be given to SPA what happens then to the portuguese culture for Galicia.
 

Toio

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should event below have a change in de/centralization as the "union" did not bring centralization until 1716.

I propose the following

#(1479-1490) Isabel and Fernando Kings of Aragon
#by Twoflower and Fodoron
event = {
id = 142013 #triggered by ARG_111023
random = no
country = CAS
name = "EVENTNAME142013" #Isabel and Fernando Kings of Aragon
desc = "EVENTHIST142013"
#-#After the death of his father Juan, Fernando and his wife Isabel became also Kings of Aragon with the same agreement than for Castile, they will both have the same powers, but Fernando will have precedence and exclusivity over the crown. Europe was fascinated by the Iberian experiment, where more than the marriage of the Kings, it appeared that the countries were marrying in equal terms. The new Kings soon showed the power of a strong monarchy, administering justice everywhere, subjugating the rebellious nobles, reorganizing the military orders, and introducing church reforms. The problems of instability, anarchy and banditry that have plagued Castile and Aragon were solved. The city rights were restored and the high nobility put under control and balanced by the increase in numbers of the lower nobility.

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME142013A" #Isabel and Fernando will rule Aragon jointly from now on
command = { type = addcore which = 427 } #Gerona
command = { type = addcore which = 429 } #Catalonia
command = { type = addcore which = 430 } #Aragon
command = { type = addcore which = 437 } #Valencia
command = { type = addcore which = 821 } #The Baleares
command = { type = addcore which = 395 } #Messina
command = { type = addcore which = 396 } #Sicily
command = { type = addcore which = 397 } #Sardinia
command = { type = addcore which = 426 } #Roussillon
command = { type = addcore which = 819 } #Malta
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 -5 }
command = { type = add_countryculture which = italian }
command = { type = add_countryculture which = amazonian } #Catalan
command = { type = add_countryculture which = maltese }
command = { type = inherit which = ARG }
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
}
}
 

Toio

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Should ARG start with trade level of 2, they had a large merchant fleet, normally trading with Greece or north Africa

country = {
tag = ARG
ai = "SmallTrade2.ai"
colonialattempts = 0
colonialnation = yes
major = no
dynamism = 3
colonists = 3.250000
cancelledloans = 0
extendedloans = 0
treasury = 400
inflation = 0
merchants = 4.083333
religion = { type = catholic }
culture = {
type = amazonian
type = italian
type = maltese
}
diplomacy = {
..........................................>>>>>>>>>
}
diplomats = 1
technology = {
stability = { level = 2 value = 42 }
infra = { level = 1 value = 104 }
trade = { level = 1 2 value = 55 }
land = { level = 1 value = 62 }
naval = { level = 1 value = 687 }
}
}
 

Andrelvis

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Toio

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Why is 4 contingent on Granda's demise (not that that matters much)?
Because Murcia was only populated with Moors and Valencians ( Catalonians)

The general principle was clear, that Aragonese influence north of the Pyrenees was to cease[8]. James I had realized that wasting his forces and distracting his energies in attempts to keep a footing in France could only end in disaster[8]. On January 1266, James I besieged and captured Murcia, settled his own men, mostly Catalans, there; and turned over Murcia to Castile by the treaty of Cazorla[9].
After granada was eliminated the castilians from the north migrated to granada, murcia etc etc

Also, I have concerns about 6. Losing revenue will not hurt Spain?

I am also unsure on that one, I am waiting on sturmvogel to see what he says


2 and 5 sound like bad ideas.

Well if we do not go with 2, then I will have to place my new events when the new map is released and hope there is a basque province which represents Bilbao .

On, 5, .........I will not pursue it , but I will also not stop it IF the events created make sense.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Isn't proposed centralization -5 for CAS_142013 really "harsh"?

Ok for trade 2 for Aragon, assuming Genoa and Venice start with level 3.
 

Third Angel

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Because Murcia was only populated with Moors and Valencians ( Catalonians)

The general principle was clear, that Aragonese influence north of the Pyrenees was to cease[8]. James I had realized that wasting his forces and distracting his energies in attempts to keep a footing in France could only end in disaster[8]. On January 1266, James I besieged and captured Murcia, settled his own men, mostly Catalans, there; and turned over Murcia to Castile by the treaty of Cazorla[9].
After granada was eliminated the castilians from the north migrated to granada, murcia etc etc
A very partial way to present things. This is how it really happened: the Muslim kingdom of Murcia became a Castilian protectorate in 1243 before being annexed by Castile in 1264. Then there was a revolt in 1265-1266 that was put down by James I, the king of Aragon then a Castilian ally, which is what your text is referring to and, as it happens, the area was handed back immediately (I have never heard about another treaty of Cazorla than the one of 1179 so I am quite confused as to when your text is assuming that the area was given back to Castile).

Then only briefly was Murcia occupied by Aragon between 1296 and 1304 during an inter-christian war. So that makes us nearly two-hundred years of Castilian influence in the area: 1243-1296 then 1304-1419, even if some Catalans settled there in 1266, I think this is hardly an argument to change the culture.


Well if we do not go with 2, then I will have to place my new events when the new map is released and hope there is a basque province which represents Bilbao .
Unless things have changed greatly since late 2006, you should have your Basque province in Castile:

hciberia.jpg
 

sturmvogel

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Isn't proposed centralization -5 for CAS_142013 really "harsh"?

And quite unjustified, IMO, considering how Ferdinand was quite able to bend the various crowns of Aragon to his will. We already have a centralization hit for Spain when he dies in 1516 as well as losing Catalan culture. That's quite enough, I think.
 

sturmvogel

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I don't know how much some of the proposed changes will hurt Spain's revenues, but I'm not much inclined to mess with anything that does that without a lot more research and playtesting. Somebody (Third Angel?) made the good point that the special privileges enjoyed by the Basques may well be shared by other communities in Spain and therefore aren't deserving of any penalty at all. Right now I simply don't know.
 

Toio

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A very partial way to present things. This is how it really happened: the Muslim kingdom of Murcia became a Castilian protectorate in 1243 before being annexed by Castile in 1264. Then there was a revolt in 1265-1266 that was put down by James I, the king of Aragon then a Castilian ally, which is what your text is referring to and, as it happens, the area was handed back immediately (I have never heard about another treaty of Cazorla than the one of 1179 so I am quite confused as to when your text is assuming that the area was given back to Castile).

Then only briefly was Murcia occupied by Aragon between 1296 and 1304 during an inter-christian war. So that makes us nearly two-hundred years of Castilian influence in the area: 1243-1296 then 1304-1419, even if some Catalans settled there in 1266, I think this is hardly an argument to change the culture.

as per link below, which says immigration from catalonia and later on immigration from kingdom of Aragon, there is no mention of any castilians in the murcia except border patrols stopping raids from Granada.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PRA1-PA1340,M1

The 5 treaties which involved castile and aragon kept changing the border ( the one I mentioned was treaty #2.), but it was castilian land by treaty. the fact are, do not only look at what i suggest , but look at why its wrong. If its not catalonian ( and definetly its not castilian, then its moorish.

Unless things have changed greatly since late 2006, you should have your Basque province in Castile:

hciberia.jpg

If this map is correct, then 387 is basque in culture and language and 388 is basque in culture but is cantabrian in language, ( closer to castilian than basque), so then 387 and 388 will be basque.
This is the same issue we have in the current map..............whats your point ??
 

Toio

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Isn't proposed centralization -5 for CAS_142013 really "harsh"?

Does the current -1 suffice for a nation (SPA) that was decentralized , preventing any catalans or basques from ever trading or going to the americas, , to see these areas ( catalonia and basque county) be run down to a miserable state until the 18th century ????

If -5 is too much, I think -1 is not enough
 

Third Angel

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as per link below, which says immigration from catalonia and later on immigration from kingdom of Aragon, there is no mention of any castilians in the murcia except border patrols stopping raids from Granada.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PRA1-PA1340,M1

The 5 treaties which involved castile and aragon kept changing the border ( the one I mentioned was treaty #2.), but it was castilian land by treaty. the fact are, do not only look at what i suggest , but look at why its wrong. If its not catalonian ( and definetly its not castilian, then its moorish.
Yes sure, let's make it "moorish" like it was in vanilla, what about Andalusia then? :wacko:

Again, you are missing the point, I do not care wether the people in Murcia talked Catalan, Castillan or even Arabic, the question is: had the Castilian state more trouble to raise taxes and maintain public order in Murcia than in other more "castilian" parts of the kingdom. I don't think so and you didn't prove otherwise.
This reasoning also applies to "Galicia" and "Cantabria" which should remain "castilian", and to "Aragon" which you agreed to make "catalan" because the Aragonese kings never had much trouble there even though we all know that it is culturally and linguistically wrong.


If this map is correct, then 387 is basque in culture and language and 388 is basque in culture but is cantabrian in language, ( closer to castilian than basque), so then 387 and 388 will be basque.
This is the same issue we have in the current map..............whats your point ??
You asked if there would be a Basque province in Castile with Bilbao as capital, so I just said that there used to be the last time maps were posted.
 

Toio

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Yes sure, let's make it "moorish" like it was in vanilla, what about Andalusia then? :wacko:

Again, you are missing the point, I do not care wether the people in Murcia talked Catalan, Castillan or even Arabic, the question is: had the Castilian state more trouble to raise taxes and maintain public order in Murcia than in other more "castilian" parts of the kingdom. I don't think so and you didn't prove otherwise.
This reasoning also applies to "Galicia" and "Cantabria" which should remain "castilian", and to "Aragon" which you agreed to make "catalan" because the Aragonese kings never had much trouble there even though we all know that it is culturally and linguistically wrong.

And I agree with you but you are the one missing the point, castile could not govern murcia, could not get taxes or men and the area was continually depopulated and ONLY replenished by catalonians ,I wish you would read the links

As for catalan, yoda read the link that aragon was catalan, why do you persist with aragonese when the culture was basically dead at the time,

check previous posts.............the one on stateless nations

If you are talking linguistically for aragon, then eastern aragon spoke catalan, while western aragon spoke navarro-aragonese from 1400

cantabria , even by your map ( and i said it before) was not part of castilian, because it never was castilian.
 

Toio

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because the Aragonese kings never had much trouble there even though we all know that it is culturally and linguistically wrong.

Catalonian kings, Counts (house of ) of Barcelona as previously stated with links, there was never an aragonese that ruled the kingdom of aragon in our EU2 game period.


If you want to find out what castile ruled with ease or not ..........read

SPAIN'S ROAD TO EMPIRE........by Henry Kamen.........Penguin book
if you read it, then Spain would ever only have castilian culture based on your ease to rule policy,
castilian only is NOT what I want
 

Third Angel

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When I say Aragonese kings, I mean kings of Aragon. I am not a native speaker so I can't see any difference between Aragonese and "of Aragon", and that will be my last post about the subject of iberian cultures.
 

Toio

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When I say Aragonese kings, I mean kings of Aragon. I am not a native speaker so I can't see any difference between Aragonese and "of Aragon", and that will be my last post about the subject of iberian cultures.

Ok,

whats you opinion on the decentralization change i made.............is -1 enough (default) or should it be greater. ??

My opinion, based on fact and that the Castilian rulers , especially after ferdinand let the castilian nobles gain the most in revenue from trade and business and not the catalans or basques, to me this is a decentralized government.
 

Toio

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to finalise the 6 questions

1. aragon province to catalan culture from 1419

2. cantabria province to basque culture from 1419

3. Leon province as capital of CAS from 1419 to when it moves to Madrid in 16th century

4. Murcia province to catalan culture

5. Galicia province to portuguese culture

6. Remove/not given basque culture to CAS or SPA until 18th century

.................................

taking the consensus from all who participated

1. aragon province to change to catalan ( yes 3 , )

2. cantabrian to remain as castilian ( yes 3, neutral 2, no 1)

3. Leon to be capital from gamestart ( yes 2, neutral 1 )

4. Murcia to be catalan ( yes 1, no 1 ) NO decision

5 Galicia to remain castilian

6. No change for basque culture for Spain, events remain as is