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AGC-EEP Holland

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Hainaut having French culture isn't unreasonable, as the entire Dutch aristocracy was largely French, as their origins lie in Lower Lorraine. One of the big points William the Silent had to deal with during the Netherlands' early years was dealing with the mostly French Aristocracy.

Jacqueline herself spoke French as her first language.

In fact gameplay wise, it might even be better if Hainaut ONLY had French culture...
 
Well, will Hainaut be given the same opportunity as the County of Holland has in the EEP: namely the ability to become the Netherlands. That's a pretty potent force in western europe. However, it could be given both, and the event transforming into the Netherlands (with CB's, leaders, etc) would have an added command, removing French culture.

This all depends on the issue if it will be run similarly to the EEP format, which I believe a lot of people enjoyed (playing the "Netherlands" from 1419, in essence).
 
That could work. Start Hainaut as French culture. Then with the become the Netherlands event have its version remove French and add Dutch. Would give both a good start and let people who want to play it from the start still form the Netherlands without it being overpowered by having both dutch and french culture.
 
Basically I think MKJ largely has it right about Artois province - geographically it is where Hainault-Namur were. I wouldn't call it southern Belgium, but rather 16th century southern "Belgium", it ought to include most of the lands that later became French.

I don't see how the cultural (linguistic?) boundary could have shifted that far south, so I see no reason why it should turn Dutch cultured. If you want to look at dynamic cultural boudaries in the region I suggest that Luxembourg and Brabant are better places to start.

I still think that I prefer the EEP set up to MKJs proposal, basically because I really don't like the two province Brabant. And as city names were mentioned, shouldn't the city of Flanders be changed? If the city is really Antwerp then the ownership of Flanders would be all wrong :).

Still, two province Brabant is definitely my second choice over some of the other alternatives.
 
In what way is it 'wrong'? Joanna owned Holland and Zeeland. Artois was Burgundian.

Certainly it's simplistic and gives a strange balance. But that's true of all solutions.
 
This is my first post, but i'm playing EUII for a while now and i often follow the discussions on this forum. It certainly isn't easy to find the best option for the low countries. But i must say as a history student from belgium that the latest possibility seems the best combination of historical correctness and best gameplay.
Hainaut can best be placed in artois due to the geografical position of that part. And my opinion of its culture is dutch from the start and later on french by event, this is how it went in history ( large parts of the southern low countries were dutch speaking and became french later on).
I know a lot of people wouldn't like to see a brabant owning two "provinces", but i think that's beter because in the 16th century, north brabant became a part of the netherland and the south staid under spanish governement. Brabant was also the largest (geografical) of the low countries. The city name of vlissingen should be changed to Breda or 's hertogenbosch (the residence of the duke in the north.
The only thing yhat might be modified after that is by my opinion the population: a two "province" brabant shouldn't have more inhabitants than Flanders. And as you said Isaac Brock Antwerp is in fact a city in brabant, but for yhe gameplay, i prefer it in Flanders, what would you do with the cot otherwise?.
Another problem: "the french taking artois (largely in 1659)" could be fixed by lowering the population in Flandres and adding people in Picardie or calais by event. I don't like artois (Hainaut) becoming french to early. The "district du nord " is than geograficly spread over three provinces, the same as the southern low countries and that, i believe, is not correct.
 
Anyone have any ideas for events portraying any possible involvement in the War of the Roses by the Sons of Humphrey?

In history, Humphrey was accused of treason and executed in 1441 when his then-wife Eleanor Cobham tried to seize the throne from Henry VI for her husband, but if he is the husband of Countess Jaqueline, she could very well assist him to the throne with far more means, and their son could very well rule England AND Hainaut.
 
Well, first of all it would require harsh conditions. A union of parts of the Netherlands and England would strengthen the country quite a lot, so I propose 4 scenarios, started by an event with 4 options which I will explain later:

-Humphrey claims the English throne, with support of his wife, but they get beaten by the english.

requirements for ending: Holland controlled by the English
effects: Holland annexed by the English, but no cores etc.

-Humphrey claims the throne, and he wins.

requirements: Holland controls Anglia
effects: Holland annexes England, becomes England and adds all of Englands cores and cultures, possibly also the French ones if England wins the HYW. (not necessarily in this order)

-Humphrey stays neutral.

requirements: none
effects: none, except that all other events aren't woken up.

-Humphrey supports a pretender to the throne.

requirements: this pretender wins the war
effects: alliance Egland Holland, relation boost, first holland loses some money and maybe troops, later gets back more IF this pretender wins.

The event options would be:

-Claim the throne:
Temp. cb on England
War with england
-stay neutral
nothing, maybe +/-1 stab
-support Lancaster:
-200 ducats
lose 5k infantry
-support York:
idem.


Likely not entirely hisrical/logical etc, so feel free to comment.
 
Sounds good, but I don't think it should involve inheritance on either side. Victory should assure that Humphrey become King of England, but that would be a personal union like Isabelle & Ferdinand, with England and Hainaut in a close personal union. Their son however, could choose to merge his kingdoms together as both King of England and Count of Hainaut. It would happen at different times however, as he could only do so after both his mother and father had died, IE he would become king and count at different times.
 
Originally posted by Avernite
requirements: Holland controls Anglia
effects: Holland annexes England, becomes England and adds all of Englands cores and cultures, possibly also the French ones if England wins the HYW. (not necessarily in this order)
Click to expand...

I can't judge on the historical justification part, but gameplay wise wouldn't this not produce an unbeatable nation in a relatively early stage of the game?
 
As unbeatable as France? :D
By the way, Humphrey, as brother to Henry V, would actually have the best claim to the throne, but by the 1450s he would be an old man, if not dead already. His son would represent a third faction in the war of the roses, making the war between Lancaster, York and Hainaut.
 
Don't play France.

I suppose most of you guys have seen this map before, I think it resembles MKJ proposal pretty much.

http://www.euratlas.com/time/nw1400.htm

And another one about the Habsburg Netherlands around 1543 it says (1548?) http://geneaknowhow.net/regel/kaarten/kaart1543.htm

But like this one as well :D (Willem III rules) http://www.euratlas.com/time/nw1700.htm

(don't know yet how to insert a map but I'll find out)

OT: just saw Patric say in Victoria, Belgium has 8 provinces in a certain scenario.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by magdat
I can't judge on the historical justification part, but gameplay wise wouldn't this not produce an unbeatable nation in a relatively early stage of the game?
Click to expand...

well, the ai will never get anglia as holland, or at least almost never.
And it's not worse than England conquering France.
 
Originally posted by Avernite

And it's not worse than England conquering France.
Click to expand...

I thought the proposals was that Holland, as a result of the event, could BECOME England, so wouldn't England be more powerfull with these 2 Dutch provinces added to here territory?
 
Imho the provinces of Artois and Hainault should have Dutch culture, yet the countries possibly French culture.
 
What's your basis for this? Are there any references you can point me to?

My understanding was that outside Brabant (like in Flanders and Limburg) the boundary between the Dutch and French languages has moved south over the past 500 years.
 
On This site it is said that Brabant represents the current provinces Brabant, Antwerpen (Belgium) and Noord-Brabant (Dutch) So I reckon Mkj sollution, with Brabant and Zeeland joined to Brabant is quite accurate.
 
Cool site. Still to adopt that interpretation you have to accept that Zeeland means one thing in 1419, and something all together different in 1560.

Any thoughts/references on Dutch Artois?
 
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