AGC-EEP Golden Horde and its Successors.

doktarr · Jul 31, 2006

Garbon said:
I disagree, Astrakhan refers specifically to that state. As you can see Kalmuck/Kalmyk is a distinct province in the game. While the two aren't supposed to exist at the same time, it is a gross collusion that could be confusing. edit: Kalmyk controlled only a portion of the eastern part of the Astrakhan province.

Seems debateable either way. "Astrakhan Khanate" clearly refers to the state, but "Astrakhan" alone is a geographic term. As you note, the Kalmyks did posess part of Astrakhan; in fact that was the location of their capital.

I don't deny that it is an approximation, at best, to use the same name for both. I just personally don't see the harm in it from a gameplay perspective. I'd have a hard time arguing that this approximation is worse than, say, leaving out some historical state in Indonesia or India or the horn of Africa.

Garbon · Jul 31, 2006

doktarr said:
I don't disagree that they are at least as state-like as the NA tribes (whom I feel are probably better modeled by events). However, as far as I can tell, the Nogai didn't behave in a particularly tag-like way. I don't see any history of them entering alliances, other than simply accepting the overlordship of this or that power. They don't expand. The history would simply be:

1) Released by the Golden Horde, vassals until the horde collapses
2) When Astrakhan falls, secede northern territory to Russia
3) Tiny rump state in Central Asia waits around to be annexed by Khiva.

It seems like including them creates more potential for ahistorical developments, than it gives improvements in modeling history. That's my current opinion based on what I've seen, anyway.

Perhaps one good change would be to make these areas Mongol culture. This way they will be a little harder to govern and recruit from, at least until the Kalmyks arrive (who will have mongol culture). In the mid 1700s cultures could be changed to local turkic cultures by event.

Except that isn't even the correct history. First off they'd exist at the 1419 start. I only said those two provinces should be handed over when Sibir gets its provinces, as otherwise you get a slightly divided Golden Horde (and Nogai only really held the bottom portions.)

Secondly the Nogai did fight with other powers. They certainly fought against the Kazaks. And then with Russia when they were subdued. The true destruction of the state would come sometime in the late 16th century when they were forced to move to Daghestan. Khiva plays no role whatsoever in their history.

So we'd have:

mid-15th century: Gets extra territories from GH
late 15th-16th century: Fights encroachment of Kazaks.
mid-16th century: Civil war splits Nogai horde in to three small states. (simulate via event, loss of cent and tax value?)
mid-late 16th century: submits to Russia (vassal like)
17th century: forced out by Kalmyks and Russia, flee to black sea area & Daghestan

Now while they don't historically expand, it isn't impossible that they could have. Also, I'm not sure exactly how they will de-rail history, as Russia is eventually supposed to take out any of the states that they might combat. I'm not sure of course what you base these standards on, as Sibir does not historically expand and yet we allow it to be a state. Nor do the Kazaks have a big history of allying with other nations.

Not representing the Nogai gives us the strange setup that we have now and doesn't accurately reflect the history of the region. The only big argument against representing them, is that it is more convenient to gloss over them.

zdlugasz · Jul 31, 2006

Garbon said:
Except that isn't even the correct history. First off they'd exist at the 1419 start. I only said those two provinces should be handed over when Sibir gets its provinces, as otherwise you get a slightly divided Golden Horde (and Nogai only really held the bottom portions.)

Secondly the Nogai did fight with other powers. They certainly fought against the Kazaks. And then with Russia when they were subdued. The true destruction of the state would come sometime in the late 16th century when they were forced to move to Daghestan. Khiva plays no role whatsoever in their history.

So we'd have:

mid-15th century: Gets extra territories from GH
late 15th-16th century: Fights encroachment of Kazaks.
mid-16th century: Civil war splits Nogai horde in to three small states. (simulate via event, loss of cent and tax value?)
mid-late 16th century: submits to Russia (vassal like)
17th century: forced out by Kalmyks and Russia, flee to black sea area & Daghestan

Now while they don't historically expand, it isn't impossible that they could have. Also, I'm not sure exactly how they will de-rail history, as Russia is eventually supposed to take out any of the states that they might combat. I'm not sure of course what you base these standards on, as Sibir does not historically expand and yet we allow it to be a state. Nor do the Kazaks have a big history of allying with other nations.

Not representing the Nogai gives us the strange setup that we have now and doesn't accurately reflect the history of the region. The only big argument against representing them, is that it is more convenient to gloss over them.

Thez fought against Russia even after were subdued in times of Russia weaknes. E.g. during time of Troubles (Smuta) they have definivitely thrown away Russia yoke and even for a short time followed Crimean Khanate.

doktarr · Jul 31, 2006

I'll lead off by saying that despite everything I said before and say below, I'm not opposed to having them in; I'm just don't think it's worth it and I think other ways of modeling them are better.

Garbon said:
First off they'd exist at the 1419 start. I only said those two provinces should be handed over when Sibir gets its provinces, as otherwise you get a slightly divided Golden Horde (and Nogai only really held the bottom portions.)

OK, makes sense. Either way, it's a question of them existing as a vassal state, or as a wrong-culture part of the overall Horde(at least, that's the alternative which I am proposing).

Garbon said:
Secondly the Nogai did fight with other powers. They certainly fought against the Kazaks.

Large pitched battles? Capture of cities? Large border changes that lasted for an extended period? I haven't seen any evidence of these things. Continuous skirmishes at the border between two terrotories can't really be accurately modeled by the game anyway.

Garbon said:
And then with Russia when they were subdued.

Again, I haven't seen this. If you provide good evidence of this, then that goes a long way toward meriting their inclusion in my mind. But what I read seems to suggest that when Astrakhan fell, the Nogai west of Astrakhan were absorbed by Crimea (and spread out all the way to the Danube), the Nogai east of Atrakhan fell under Russian control, at least until the Kalmyks kicked them out, and the Nogai to the extreme southeast sort of disappeared from history.

hostkingdom does mention some later conflicts, but it seems like these were skirmishes with tribes living in other people's lands (namely, Crimea and Russia), as oppose to an organzied nation that warrants the full diplomatic trappings of war and peace.

The problem that becomes clear when you look at Nogai's history is that they seemed to move freely in and out of various other "nation's" borders. If we have the Nogai, for instance, should they exist on both sides of Astrakhan?

Garbon said:
The true destruction of the state would come sometime in the late 16th century when they were forced to move to Daghestan. Khiva plays no role whatsoever in their history.

I was referring to the theory on hostkingdom that the third, southeast branch formed Qarakalpak, which was later absorbed into Khiva. I agree that the territory they occupied at game start bears no connection to Khiva.

Garbon said:
So we'd have:

mid-15th century: Gets extra territories from GH
late 15th-16th century: Fights encroachment of Kazaks.

With you so far, although I'd like to see some evidence that these were more than minor border skirmishes before I'd consider it important.

Garbon said:
mid-16th century: Civil war splits Nogai horde in to three small states. (simulate via event, loss of cent and tax value?)

I would give everything west of the Volga to Crimea, most of the rest to Russia, and only leave the southeast part independent. Or maybe represent some of it as a vassal state, but that leaves open the question of what to do with the southeast part (secede to Khazaks?).

Garbon said:
mid-late 16th century: submits to Russia (vassal like)

The submission here is simultaneous with the splintering of the horde and the defeat of Astrakhan by Russia. All three events seem directly connected.

Garbon said:
17th century: forced out by Kalmyks and Russia, flee to black sea area & Daghestan

Are you suggesting creating a new Nogai state in the Caucusses at that point? Again, the mobile nature of the Nogai makes them extremely hard to model with a tag.

Garbon said:
Now while they don't historically expand, it isn't impossible that they could have. Also, I'm not sure exactly how they will de-rail history, as Russia is eventually supposed to take out any of the states that they might combat.

For starters, they make it harder to represent Astrakhan properly, and I think Astrakhan is a more sedentary state and allow the region a more consistent path. I think the Nogai are better modeled with culture and with events.

Garbon said:
I'm not sure of course what you base these standards on, as Sibir does not historically expand and yet we allow it to be a state.

Sibir have a clear static territory, and they were conquered by Russia at a separate time from the rest of the khanates.

Garbon said:
The only big argument against representing them, is that it is more convenient to gloss over them.

Not terribly far from the truth. I just think it's very, very hard to model a fluid tribal "nation" that moved in and out of the spheres of influence of other powers with a tag. I think culture shifts and other events model them more accurately and consistently than a tag which keeps changing location and jumping from vassalage to vassalage.

Garbon · Jul 31, 2006

I'll answer back all your points when I can. However, to repeat what I started out with.

The problem that people have had when casually researching the Nogai is that you need to make a distinction between the Nogai state and the Nogai (as various tribes). There certainly was a tribal state that existed up to the late 16th-early 17th century, to the east of Astrakhan. It had a fixed capital that was later demolished when all the tribes were kicked west.

Then, you also have in the west various Nogai tribes that weren't connected to the state / only connected by way of ethnically being the same people. I need to go back an pull them. But there are several site that point out that the tribes that fought with Crimea against Russia in the west were unconnected to the state in the east. I've even found mention that it was ethnic Nogai who founded Sibir.

It is only hard to track the Nogai if you try and conceptualize them as one entity. However, if you recognize that Nogai is simple a term for a particular ethnicity, you can slowly but surely weed out the random tribes from what was an actual state.

All of this said, representing the Nogai state will be easier on a new map where we have more accurately defined and small provinces.

Last note, for the moment. I tend not to trust hostkingdom as a source, as a lot of that guy's info is horribly flawed. I only cited hostkingdom earlier, as I found the original source for that info on the Nogai on a turkish site. However, the turkish site's english is a little raggedy, so I put the more elegantly worded hostkingdom up for display.

edit: note that this state I'm tracking is the Greater Nogai.

doktarr · Jul 31, 2006

Garbon said:
The problem that people have had when casually researching the Nogai is that you need to make a distinction between the Nogai state and the Nogai (as various tribes). There certainly was a tribal state that existed up to the late 16th-early 17th century, to the east of Astrakhan. It had a fixed capital that was later demolished when all the tribes were kicked west.

OK, fair enough. Some conflicts involve independent Nogai tribes that don't warrant modeling except perhaps through event, while there was a core area to the SE of Astrakhan that was stable Nogai land until the early 1600s. Perhaps on the new map, this area will constitute enough provinces to merit a tag. In that case, the relevant events would go something like:

On "splintering of the horde" events: Gets extra territories from GH, breaks vassalage
On fall of Astrakhan to Russia: some northern territories seceded to Russia; become Russian vassals. Southern territory may be seceded to Kazaks or to whoever owns the adjacent areas to the south.
Early 17th century: Kalmyk state pops up and inherits them (or fights a war with them and generally wins, which causes inheritance, or something like this). Kalmyk events then bind them to Russia.

This sequence requires the Kalmyks to get their own tag as well(since they won't be on top of Astrakhan anymore). So that's two extra tags over what I had been suggesting (no Nogai except through event, recycling AST for Kalmyks), not just one. A fairly expensive proposal.

Garbon · Jul 31, 2006

doktarr said:
OK, fair enough. Some conflicts involve independent Nogai tribes that don't warrant modeling except perhaps through event, while there was a core area to the SE of Astrakhan that was stable Nogai land until the early 1600s. Perhaps on the new map, this area will constitute enough provinces to merit a tag. In that case, the relevant events would go something like:

On "splintering of the horde" events: Gets extra territories from GH, breaks vassalage

On fall of Astrakhan to Russia: some northern territories seceded to Russia; become Russian vassals. Southern territory may be seceded to Kazaks or to whoever owns the adjacent areas to the south.

Early 17th century: Kalmyk state pops up and inherits them (or fights a war with them and generally wins, which causes inheritance, or something like this). Kalmyk events then bind them to Russia.

This sequence requires the Kalmyks to get their own tag as well(since they won't be on top of Astrakhan anymore). So that's two extra tags over what I had been suggesting (no Nogai except through event, recycling AST for Kalmyks), not just one. A fairly expensive proposal.

Agreed on all accounts.

However, I do think that this is the most thing we can do. So what should happen is that the two as a set get added to the list of potential tags to be added with the new map.

Note: Beyond the "other African hopefuls" we have about 20 tags for 29/30 new nations for the new map...of course, that doesn't include any nations for south america. Numbers to change as we may have another tag release or two / some of those on our list will probably be cut like Pajajaran

unmerged(5206) · Jul 31, 2006

Garbon said:
Agreed on all accounts.

However, I do think that this is the most thing we can do. So what should happen is that the two as a set get added to the list of potential tags to be added with the new map.

Note: Beyond the "other African hopefuls" we have about 20 tags for 29/30 new nations for the new map...of course, that doesn't include any nations for south america. Numbers to change as we may have another tag release or two / some of those on our list will probably be cut like Pajajaran

Does the offical AGCEEP map differ much from MyMap or MKJ's?

Garbon · Jul 31, 2006

I haven't stayed on top of MyMap changes. Some places are quite similar to MKJ's map. Others not so much.

Garbon · Jul 31, 2006

Oh, and I think I might be able to free up the NOG tag.

unmerged(17856) · Jul 31, 2006

doktarr said:
Capture of cities? Large border changes that lasted for an extended period? I haven't seen any evidence of these things.

The Huron and Iroquois satisfy this.

doktarr · Aug 1, 2006

ribbon22 said:
doktarr said:

Capture of cities? Large border changes that lasted for an extended period? I haven't seen any evidence of these things.

Click to expand...

The Huron and Iroquois satisfy this.

wrong thread, but:

You left "Large pitched battles?" off of the start of my quote.
I'm not using this as a central criteria for tag inclusion, just a way of deciding whether a particular conflict reflects what war is like in EU2.
All of these things can be represented, to some degree, by rebels...

zdlugasz · Aug 15, 2006

in Theodoros thread

zdlugasz · Sep 8, 2006

Golden Horde, Crimea and Lithuania
Mostly till 1478; plus about Crimean Vassalship.

In some places I use Polish phonetical transcriptions for Tatar names (Polish-English transciption would be like: y = i, sz = sh, ch = kh, j = y, w = v, dż = jj etc.) e.g. Hadży Gerej = Hajji Giray; mostly because my books use it

, and I am too lazy to dig up most popular English transcriptions of these names

Lithuanian dukes were meddling in Golder Horde's internal matters since XVIth century. When Tochtamysz was defeated by Tamerlan in 1395, he was able to keep Crimea with help of Vytautas. However defeat at Worskla river stoped Lithuanian plans to subjugate Golden Horde. Tochtamysz was eventally murdered by his competitors on the steppes. In 1409 the oldest son of Tochtamysz, Dżelal ed-Din, settled in Lithuania with part of Horde and even participated in war against Teutonic Order. In 1411 Vytautas succeded in putting docile Dżelal ed-Din on the Tatar throne, however Dżelal did not rule long and was deposed by Edygej.
After shot fighting Edygej made it up with Vytautas. After death of Edygej (murdered in 1419), Golden Horde had another round of internal warfare and instability. Vytautas decided to exploit situation and supported Hadży Gerej (father of Hadży Gerej, after defeat of Tochtamysz, also went to Crimea but was expelled and finally settled in Lithuania, Hadży Gerej was born in Troki, near border with Teutonic Order (Vytautas settled Tatars there to protect his borders against TO)). At the beginning Hadży faced defeats, but finally in years 1428-1430, with help of aristocratic family Szirin, he took over control of (part of) Crimea. At the beginning his rule was rather weak and limited (regarding area), his main city was Kirkyeri. Many coastal cities (like Kaffa) still considered Golden Horde as their overlord and paid tribute to the Khan in Saray. It seems that at the beginning Gerej accepted two overlords: Vytautas and khan of the Golden Horde. In 1433 Gerej for a short time forced Kaffa to accept his authority, later other port cities like Gozlewe and far-away Tana (Azov) accepted his suzerainty as well.
When after death of Vitautas Lithuania has pluged into civil war both sides cooperated with Tatars. Svitrigaila suported khan of Great Horde (in game still Golden Horde) Sajjid Ahmed and Zygimantas supported Hadży Gerej. When Kazimieras (future king of Poland Kazimierz) started rule in Lithuania in 1440 he supported Hadży Gerej and Gerej reciprocated helping in fight with new pretender to the Lithuanian throne, son of Zygimantas (Michailis), who in turn was supported by Sajjid Ahmed (Khan of Great Horde)). Golden or rather Great Horde attacked Poland and Lithuania in 1448 and 1449, in response Kazimierz attacked lands controlled by Ahmed in 1450. In 1452 Lithuanian royal opposition (after death of Svitrigaila significant opposition rose in Lithuanian (they rose several times during reign of Kazimieras)) contacted Great Horde and allied with Ahmed. Ahmed attacked again in 1453 and 1455 when was utterly defeated by Crimean and Polish-Lituanian troops. Ahmed has escaped to Kiev (Kiev had significant degree of autonomy and at that time was ruled by prince Olelkowicz). Initially Olelkowicz (member of opposition) declined to give up Ahmed but was forced and Ahmed has been imprisoned in Kowno (Kaunas). Oposition in Lithuania has been broken.

Due to the defeat of Ahmed, Hadży Gerej gained complete indepenence from the Great Horde and significantly increased his domain (before ruled only S-E part of the Crimean Penninsula and was supported by two aristocratic clans, now two new clans joined him). His rule extended over almost whole Crimea, Black See steppes around Crimea and what was the most important: port cities. Again, Kaffa was the most recalcitrant. To crush resistance of Kaffa, Gerej allied with Mehmed II and in 1454 attacked Kaffa. Kaffa withstood siege but had to submit and agreed to pay tribute. At that time Gerej deliberately was weakening Italian cities by banning trade with them and organizing own trade markets in Kerch and Ikerman, however later he renewed trade contacts. According to the Ottoman cronicles of Ankaral Hekim Yahyi, Hadży Gerej was suzerain of the whole Crimea including cities: Kirkeyeri, Solhat, Kaffa, Kerch, Taman and lord of steppes of Kipchak and Kouban (at least parts close to Crimea).
Gerej had strong aristocratic opposition in Crimea and in not clear conditions between 1456 and 1465 lost rule due to the rebellion of part of the aristocracy suported by Genoese cities and allied with Khan of Great Horde Ahmed. Gerej had to flee to Lithuania or Ottoman Empire. Khan of Great Horde took over rule in Crimea. However, soon mirza Eminek and clan Szirin rebelled against Ahmed and with help of King of Poland Kazimierz, Hadży Gerej restored his rule. From that time one document survived. It is dated on 22 september 1461 and Hadży Gerej secedes Kazimierz all rights to rule over the Ruthenian lands formerly controled by Tatars (already ruled by Lithuania and Poland since at least 1370-80). Document include names of cities like Kiev, Kamieniec-Podolski, Luck, Braclav, Czerkasy, Sokal, Brest, Smolensk, Putywl, Rylsk, Kursk, Starodub, Briansk, Mecensk, Lubuck and Tula. It must have been form of pay-back, however it is unsure if at that moment Gerej was in exile or in Crimea.
Near the end of his rule Hadży Gerej was worried by the Ottoman expansion in the area of the Black See, however Polish king Kazimierz was busy in war against Teutonic Order and could not commit himself in Black See politics. Hadży Gerej, called Melek (Angel) due to his good look, died in 1466 and left three sons: Nur Dewlet, Mengli and Hajdar. Each of them wanted to rule, so fights between them erupted soon. Internal divisions and conflicts of interests between Great Horde, Ottoman Empire and aristocratic clans (with most prominent clan Szirin) were revealed. Also Genoese cities has aktivized themselves. Because sources from years 1466-1478 are not complete, not all is clear. It is known that Hajdar did not play active role for long, however he ruled Crimea few months after death of Hadży Gerej. In his opposition were Mengli supported by Crimean separatists in aristocracy and Nur Dewlet supported by Great Horde. Mengli dethroned Hajdar and Crimea was ruled by two brothers: Mengli took control of part of country with support of mirza Eminek and Szirin clan, Genoese and Turks, while Nur Dewlet was supported by Great Horde (and obtained official "paper" from Khan of Great Horde entitling him to rule over the whole Crime).

Mengli has proposed Muscovy cooperation offering common fight against Lithuania. In 1469, Nur Dewlet with help of part of Nogais, deposed brother Hajdar and supported by troops of Great Horde defeated Mengli and forced him to flee from Kirkyeri to Kaffa. Genoese cities agreed to support Mengli at the price of lowering their tribute. After gaining throne Nur Dewlet sent emissary (among others) to Poland and assured Kazimierz about his friendship.
In 1471 Mengli with help of Eminek overthrown brother and gained power. In 1473 signed alliance with Ivan III, aimed against Great Horde and Jagiellon states. This shift in politics was caused by the alliance between Kazimierz and Khan Ahmed aimed against Muscovy. In may 1475 Khan of Greater Horde entered Crimea and seated on the Crimean throne Dżanibek (not related to the Gerej family). Eminek called for the Ottoman Empire help, which was gladly granted. Powerful army of Great Vizier Gedlik Ahmed Pasha landed on Crimea and after stong bombardment forced pro-Ahmed Kaffa to capitulate. Soon all other port cities joined Kaffa's fate. Theodoro, defended by Wallachians, was last to capitulate.
Both brothers tried to appeal for Ottoman help. Exploiting Ottomans successes, also Eminek probably has decided to gain the throne for himself. In 1476 Eminek with Nur Dewlet (they have temporarily reconciled) led Tatar forces to support Ottomans in their Moldavian campaign. Exploiting their absence (Mengli was imprisoned by Ottomans at that time) Ahmed entered Crimea again and set Dżanibek back on the throne. But it was the last intervention of Great Horde in Crimea. Both Nur Dewlet and Mengli appealed for Ottoman help and the first one gained rule and second remained imprisoned. Eminek, seeing his chances diminished took up the Mengli cause again and appealed to the Sultan in the name of all Tatar aristocracy. In 1478 Mehmed II send army back to Crimea, removed all pretenders (Nur Dewlet, Dżanibek and Hajdar) and seated Mengli on the throne.
It was in year 1478 when Mengli signed treaty with Ottomans and this year should be considered as start of Crimean vassalship (not in 1475 what appears in most articles, and Muscovy/Russia completely did not participate at all in these matters). However Turkish garrisons in Kaffa, Mankop and Azov (since 1475) and even treaty of 1478 did not make Crimea obedient vassal.
Points of treaty:
- Khan had full internal power
- Khan was to be chosen from Gerej family by Tatar aristocracy
- Khan had to support Ottomans in their wars
- Sultan was supposed to supervise foreign policy of Crimea (this point very often was not realized)
- Sultan had right to nominate religious officials (this gave OE significant influence on Crimean internal matters)

This treaty gave Crimea some material gains:
- salijane - yearly recompensation for loss of taxes from Kaffa and lost tibute of previously Genoese cities
- tesnifat - "gifts" given to khan and high officials after their nomination
- tirkes baha - paid for Tatar military help in Ottoman campaigns (first time received in 1484)
- sekbanakcesi - subsidies paid each year to maintain Crimean regular army (sekban)
- hass - paid to Gerej princes living in Constantinople (expelled or hostages)
Later Crimea received also part of Moldavia's and Wallachia's tribute and Gerejs became owners of big estates in Anatolia and Rumelia. But these incomes were not staggering, in 1743 Ottoman subsidies amounted to 16% of Crimean budget (according to someones calculations).

Vassal relationships gave Sultans right to accept new Khans (or not). In following years Ottomans increased their garrisons in Crimea and expanded them to Kerch, Jenikale, Taman, Temruk, Oil Burun, Sogudiak, Or (Perekop) and Ozu (Ochakov). After long struggles (with help of Crimean army), Ottomans eventually captured Kilia and Akerman in 1484 and gained land connection between Rumelia and Crimea which even futher limited Crimean Khan's liberty, however Gerejs had preserved rights to separate policy against Muscovy and Poland, and in practice it was fully independent policy. Gerejs had also right to mint their own currency.
Degree of Khan's freedom depended on the internal strenght of Khan and Sultan, Sultan's involvement in wars in Asia and Europe and strength of Poland and Muscovy/Russia.
First Ottoman vassal was Mengli Gerej, he was loyal to Mehmed II but even he was rather realizing Crimean not Ottoman interests in Moldavia. When relatively weak Bayezid II started his rule, Mengli started to act not as vassal but member of Sultans family. His daughters married two next Sultans (Selim and Suleyman) and Mengli started to interfere in internal Ottoman conflicts (between Bayezid and Selim). When Selim gained throne after deposal of Bayezid in 1512, Mengli started to act almost as suzerain of his son-in-law, who addressed him in letters with esteem as his father. Expansion of Selim in Africa and against Persia allowed Mengli to have completely free hand in European politics.
Succesions after Mengli (died in 1515) were result of compromise between Ottomans and Tatar aristocracy, and only Sahib Gerej gained throne in 1532 due to the Ottoman military intervention. That is why he remained loyal to Suleyman and participated in his wars, but even he sometimes acted against directly expressed Ottoman directives in his politics regarding Muscovy and Caucassus.

That's it for now. As we can see looking at Golden Horde, Crimean, Theodoro, Lithuanian etc. events and setup, they are far way from what was portrayed in my book.

zdlugasz · Sep 9, 2006

So the proposal would be:

- Crimea starts smaller (2 provs), this would require modification of minimal cores
- possibly joins alliance with Poland and Lithuania
- in 1455 by event or sequence of events gains all other lands
- in 1478 is vassalized by TUR as result of civil war, not becuase TUR or RUS is neighbour (which might not be truth and except of Kaffa (difficult for TUR to capture so soon)), TUR was not neighbour
- Genoese cities (here only Teodoro) became Golden Horde vassal, later Crimea's vassal; this might extend Teodoros life

doktarr · Sep 10, 2006

zdlugasz said:
After death of Edygej (murdered in 1419), Golden Horde had another round of internal warfare and instability. Vytautas decided to exploit situation and supported Hadży Gerej (father of Hadży Gerej, after defeat of Tochtamysz, also went to Crimea but was expelled and finally settled in Lithuania, Hadży Gerej was born in Troki, near border with Teutonic Order (Vytautas settled Tatars there to protect his borders against TO)). At the beginning Hadży faced defeats, but finally in years 1428-1430, with help of aristocratic family Szirin, he took over control of (part of) Crimea.

This is not too different from what we have, where there is a revolt by event in late 1426 combined with province-based RR in Crimea. We could add an event for Lithuania where they could choose to support the rebels, and thereby add more revolts/revoltrisk. But fundamentally, this seems the same as what we have so far.

zdlugasz said:
At the beginning his rule was rather weak and limited (regarding area), his main city was Kirkyeri. Many coastal cities (like Kaffa) still considered Golden Horde as their overlord and paid tribute to the Khan in Saray. It seems that at the beginning Gerej accepted two overlords: Vytautas and khan of the Golden Horde. In 1433 Gerej for a short time forced Kaffa to accept his authority, later other port cities like Gozlewe and far-away Tana (Azov) accepted his suzerainty as well.

I'm not sure we can/should attempt to model these sorts of small-scale border changes. It's probably better (more consistent) from a gameplay perspective to just fast forward through these early years where Crimea was establishing its borders, and have Crimea pop up at a more stable size. We could have the Crimea establishment event secede some of the more extreme eastern domains back to the Golden Horde if it would be really anachronistic (i.e. 20+ years off) for them to hold them.

zdlugasz said:
When after death of Vitautas Lithuania has pluged into civil war both sides cooperated with Tatars. Svitrigaila suported khan of Great Horde (in game still Golden Horde) Sajjid Ahmed and Zygimantas supported Hadży Gerej. When Kazimieras (future king of Poland Kazimierz) started rule in Lithuania in 1440 he supported Hadży Gerej and Gerej reciprocated helping in fight with new pretender to the Lithuanian throne, son of Zygimantas (Michailis), who in turn was supported by Sajjid Ahmed (Khan of Great Horde)). Golden or rather Great Horde attacked Poland and Lithuania in 1448 and 1449, in response Kazimierz attacked lands controlled by Ahmed in 1450. In 1452 Lithuanian royal opposition (after death of Svitrigaila significant opposition rose in Lithuanian (they rose several times during reign of Kazimieras)) contacted Great Horde and allied with Ahmed. Ahmed attacked again in 1453 and 1455 when was utterly defeated by Crimean and Polish-Lituanian troops. Ahmed has escaped to Kiev (Kiev had significant degree of autonomy and at that time was ruled by prince Olelkowicz). Initially Olelkowicz (member of opposition) declined to give up Ahmed but was forced and Ahmed has been imprisoned in Kowno (Kaunas). Oposition in Lithuania has been broken.

This does sound like significant support to the idea that Crimea should start with a positive relation with Lithuania and Poland. The current Crimea establishment event gives Crimea +100 relations with both Poland and Lithuania. We could push that up a bit more, but this is already the largest relations boost Crimea gets and it is probably all the encouragement we should provide for this alliance. If game conditions don't favor this alliance then we shouldn't force it.

As far as the Lithuanian opposition is concerned - if we want to add actual revolt events to Lithuania, then we can give the Golden Horde events to support it. But given that the Lithuanian opposition won't be getting a tag, that's probably the best we can do.

zdlugasz said:
Due to the defeat of Ahmed, Hadży Gerej gained complete indepenence from the Great Horde and significantly increased his domain (before ruled only S-E part of the Crimean Penninsula and was supported by two aristocratic clans, now two new clans joined him). His rule extended over almost whole Crimea, Black See steppes around Crimea and what was the most important: port cities. Again, Kaffa was the most recalcitrant. To crush resistance of Kaffa, Gerej allied with Mehmed II and in 1454 attacked Kaffa. Kaffa withstood siege but had to submit and agreed to pay tribute. At that time Gerej deliberately was weakening Italian cities by banning trade with them and organizing own trade markets in Kerch and Ikerman, however later he renewed trade contacts. According to the Ottoman cronicles of Ankaral Hekim Yahyi, Hadży Gerej was suzerain of the whole Crimea including cities: Kirkeyeri, Solhat, Kaffa, Kerch, Taman and lord of steppes of Kipchak and Kouban (at least parts close to Crimea).

As far as the non-coastal areas go, I think this is best modeled by just allowing Crimea to fight wars against the Golden Horde. Give Crimea a stable initial size, let it declare war when it thinks it should, and expand using the natural operation of the game engine.

zdlugasz said:
Near the end of his rule Hadży Gerej was worried by the Ottoman expansion in the area of the Black See, however Polish king Kazimierz was busy in war against Teutonic Order and could not commit himself in Black See politics. Hadży Gerej, called Melek (Angel) due to his good look, died in 1466 and left three sons: Nur Dewlet, Mengli and Hajdar. Each of them wanted to rule, so fights between them erupted soon. Internal divisions and conflicts of interests between Great Horde, Ottoman Empire and aristocratic clans (with most prominent clan Szirin) were revealed. Also Genoese cities has aktivized themselves. Because sources from years 1466-1478 are not complete, not all is clear. It is known that Hajdar did not play active role for long, however he ruled Crimea few months after death of Hadży Gerej. In his opposition were Mengli supported by Crimean separatists in aristocracy and Nur Dewlet supported by Great Horde. Mengli dethroned Hajdar and Crimea was ruled by two brothers: Mengli took control of part of country with support of mirza Eminek and Szirin clan, Genoese and Turks, while Nur Dewlet was supported by Great Horde (and obtained official "paper" from Khan of Great Horde entitling him to rule over the whole Crime).

Mengli has proposed Muscovy cooperation offering common fight against Lithuania. In 1469, Nur Dewlet with help of part of Nogais, deposed brother Hajdar and supported by troops of Great Horde defeated Mengli and forced him to flee from Kirkyeri to Kaffa. Genoese cities agreed to support Mengli at the price of lowering their tribute. After gaining throne Nur Dewlet sent emissary (among others) to Poland and assured Kazimierz about his friendship.
In 1471 Mengli with help of Eminek overthrown brother and gained power. In 1473 signed alliance with Ivan III, aimed against Great Horde and Jagiellon states. This shift in politics was caused by the alliance between Kazimierz and Khan Ahmed aimed against Muscovy. In may 1475 Khan of Greater Horde entered Crimea and seated on the Crimean throne Dżanibek (not related to the Gerej family). Eminek called for the Ottoman Empire help, which was gladly granted. Powerful army of Great Vizier Gedlik Ahmed Pasha landed on Crimea and after stong bombardment forced pro-Ahmed Kaffa to capitulate. Soon all other port cities joined Kaffa's fate. Theodoro, defended by Wallachians, was last to capitulate.
Both brothers tried to appeal for Ottoman help. Exploiting Ottomans successes, also Eminek probably has decided to gain the throne for himself. In 1476 Eminek with Nur Dewlet (they have temporarily reconciled) led Tatar forces to support Ottomans in their Moldavian campaign. Exploiting their absence (Mengli was imprisoned by Ottomans at that time) Ahmed entered Crimea again and set Dżanibek back on the throne. But it was the last intervention of Great Horde in Crimea. Both Nur Dewlet and Mengli appealed for Ottoman help and the first one gained rule and second remained imprisoned. Eminek, seeing his chances diminished took up the Mengli cause again and appealed to the Sultan in the name of all Tatar aristocracy. In 1478 Mehmed II send army back to Crimea, removed all pretenders (Nur Dewlet, Dżanibek and Hajdar) and seated Mengli on the throne.

Without a bunch of different tags, it's difficult to model this sort of civil war situation using the game engine. Best would probably be to put some revoltrisk in the capital from 1466 to 1478. Having too many revolts all around the country for this long will create the risk of having large stretches of Crimea defect to neighboring areas, which wouldn't really be historical.

If you want to put in a "Russian time of troubles"-type sequence, and have REB ownership of the capital trigger change of monarch, then that's OK with me (it's a lot of scripting, though). Otherwise, we could just have the monarch flip back and forth at historical times. Either way, the final result should probably be Mengli, just like the Russian ToT ends with the Romanovs.

zdlugasz said:
It was in year 1478 when Mengli signed treaty with Ottomans and this year should be considered as start of Crimean vassalship (not in 1475 what appears in most articles, and Muscovy/Russia completely did not participate at all in these matters). However Turkish garrisons in Kaffa, Mankop and Azov (since 1475) and even treaty of 1478 did not make Crimea obedient vassal.
Points of treaty:
- Khan had full internal power
- Khan was to be chosen from Gerej family by Tatar aristocracy
- Khan had to support Ottomans in their wars
- Sultan was supposed to supervise foreign policy of Crimea (this point very often was not realized)
- Sultan had right to nominate religious officials (this gave OE significant influence on Crimean internal matters)

This treaty gave Crimea some material gains:
- salijane - yearly recompensation for loss of taxes from Kaffa and lost tibute of previously Genoese cities
- tesnifat - "gifts" given to khan and high officials after their nomination
- tirkes baha - paid for Tatar military help in Ottoman campaigns (first time received in 1484)
- sekbanakcesi - subsidies paid each year to maintain Crimean regular army (sekban)
- hass - paid to Gerej princes living in Constantinople (expelled or hostages)
Later Crimea received also part of Moldavia's and Wallachia's tribute and Gerejs became owners of big estates in Anatolia and Rumelia. But these incomes were not staggering, in 1743 Ottoman subsidies amounted to 16% of Crimean budget (according to someones calculations).

Firstly, we can move Crimean vassalage event from 1466 to 1478; this is fine. If we want to add some Ottoman monetary donation to the Crimean vassalage event as well, that's fine too. (Maybe even make a series of such events.) But beyond that, the precise details of this treaty are beyond the scope of the game engine, and it falls well within the bounds of what we call vassalage.

ConjurerDragon · Oct 29, 2006

Crimea question

In my current game as Austria Crimea rebelled away as a one-province-minor from the Timurids (who had conquered Astrachan and some other GH provinces) - however not in Crimea, but one of their eastern provinces.

Later the GH seceded many provinces to Crimea - but not Crimea itself with an event. The problem was that Crimea did own all it´s provinces except Crimea. And GH did still own Crimea but had no land connection to it anymore... Shouldn´t the event INCLUDE Crimea just in case?

Code:

#(1430-1500) Southern uluses are lost
event = {
	id = 287013
	trigger = { exists = CRI }
	random = no
	country = STE
	name = "EVENTNAME287013" #Southern uluses are lost
	desc = "EVENTHIST287013"
	#-#Once the crimean khanate was estabilished, the tatars around the Black Sea were no longer bound by loyality to the khan in Sarai, and the control over the territory was swiftly lost.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1430 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME287013A" #Jackals!
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 296 } #Jedisan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 319 } #Bujak
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 459 } #Lugansk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 460 } #Donetsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 461 } #Poltava
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 462 } #Krementjug
                [color=yellow]command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 463 } #Crimea[/color]
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 464 } #Kaffa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 465 } #Kerch
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 469 } #Sochi/Abkhazia #Abkhazia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 470 } #Georgia/Kolkhis #Kolkhis
	}
}

unmerged(40707) · Oct 29, 2006

Good idea. Can be considered as a bugfix.

For information, proposed change to Crimean vassalage by OE, here in OE thread.

unmerged(40707) · Oct 29, 2006

Another bugfix, for Ulugh Muhammad:

Code:

#(1435-1437) Flight of Ulugh Muhammad
event = {
	id = 40058
	random = no
	country = STE
	name = "EVENTNAME40058" #Ulugh Muhammad flees
	desc = "EVENTHIST40058"
	#-#

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1435 }
	offset = 200
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1437 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME40058A" #Let him go
		[COLOR=Yellow]command = { type = wakemonarch which = 0128504 } #Sayyid Ahmad I
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 0128505 } #Sayyid Ahmad I[/COLOR]
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 463 } #Crimea
		command = { type = revolt which = 463 } #Crimea
		command = { type = revolt which = 466 } #Azow
		command = { type = revolt which = 466 } #Azow
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 40061 } #KAZ: Death of Ulugh Muhammed
	}
}

#-#A growing discontent in Sarai led to revolt by his brother Ahmad, who forced Ulugh Muhammad to abandon his throne, and settle North along Volga in Bulgaria in a town of Qazan, creating an independent Khanate of Kazan.

unmerged(40707) · May 1, 2007

Too much determinism, potential problems and Bogutjar was forgotten for Russia:

Code:

#(1500-1820) The Golden Horde Vanishes
event = {
	id = 152050 #triggered by STE_287003 A
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152050" #The Golden Horde Vanishes
	desc = "EVENTHIST152050"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152050A" #Haha!
		command = { type = inherit which = STE }
		command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } #Kazan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } #Tambow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } #Ufa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } #Samara[/COLOR]
		command = { type = independence which = AST }
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } #Uralsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 458 } #Volgograd[/COLOR]
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 462 } #Krementjug
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 296 } #Jedisan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 450 } #Belgorod
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } #Saratow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 460 } #Donetsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 461 } #Poltava[/COLOR]
		command = { type = independence which = SEL }
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = secedeprovince which = SEL value = 469 } #Abkhazia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SEL value = 470 } #Kolkhis[/COLOR]
		command = { type = removecore which = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = trigger which = 152000 } #CRI: Disintegration of the Golden Horde
		[COLOR=Yellow]command = { type = trigger which = 271010 } #RUS: The Golden Horde Vanishes
		command = { type = trigger which = 210024 } #LIT: The Golden Horde Vanishes
		command = { type = trigger which = 301083 } #TUR: The Golden Horde Vanishes[/COLOR]
	}
}

#-#In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over.

Code:

#(1500-1820) D[COLOR=Yellow]i[/COLOR]sintegration of the Golden Horde
event = {
	id = 152000 #triggered by CRI_152050
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			[COLOR=Yellow]owned = { province = 446 data = -1 } #Kazan
			owned = { province = 447 data = -1 } #Tambow
			owned = { province = 453 data = -1 } #Ufa
			owned = { province = 454 data = -1 } #Samara
			owned = { province = 455 data = -1 } #Uralsk
			owned = { province = 456 data = -1 } #Orenburg
			owned = { province = 458 data = -1 } #Volgograd
			owned = { province = 469 data = -1 } #Abkhazia
			owned = { province = 470 data = -1 } #Kolkhis[/COLOR]
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152000" #D[COLOR=Yellow]i[/COLOR]sintegration of the Golden Horde
	desc = "EVENTHIST152000"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "[COLOR=Yellow]OH_NO[/COLOR]"
		[COLOR=Yellow]command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } #Kazan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } #Tambow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } #Ufa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } #Samara
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } #Uralsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SEL value = 469 } #Abkhazia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SEL value = 470 } #Kolkhis[/COLOR]
	}
}

#-#After the fall of the Golden Horde several Khanates regained complete independency.

All secede commands grouped in this event but RUS, LIT and TUR are removed.

New events:

Code:

#(1500-1820) The Golden Horde Vanishes
event = {
	id = 271010 #triggered by CRI_152050
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = { #no need if all involved provinces are already owned by Russia
				owned = { province = 450 data = -1 } #Belgorod
				owned = { province = 451 data = -1 } #Bogutjar
				owned = { province = 452 data = -1 } #Saratow
				owned = { province = 460 data = -1 } #Donetsk
			}
		}
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 286 data = -1 } #Kursk
			owned = { province = 447 data = -1 } #Tambow
			owned = { province = 448 data = -1 } #Ryazan
			owned = { province = 449 data = -1 } #Vorones
			owned = { province = 450 data = -1 } #Belgorod
			owned = { province = 451 data = -1 } #Bogutjar
			owned = { province = 452 data = -1 } #Saratow
			owned = { province = 453 data = -1 } #Ufa
			owned = { province = 460 data = -1 } #Donetsk
			vassal = { country = RUS country = RYA }
		}
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 450 data = CRI } #Belgorod
			owned = { province = 451 data = CRI } #Bogutjar
			owned = { province = 452 data = CRI } #Saratow
			owned = { province = 460 data = CRI } #Donetsk
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = RUS
	name = "EVENTNAME152050" #The Golden Horde Vanishes
	desc = "EVENTHIST152050"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "GREAT"
		command = { type = trigger which = 152003 } #CRI: Russia and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	}
}

Code:

#(1500-1820) Russia and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
event = {
	id = 152003 #triggered by RUS_271010
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152003" #Russia and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	desc = "EVENTHIST152003"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "OH_NO"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 450 } #Belgorod
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 451 } #Bogutjar
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } #Saratow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 460 } #Donetsk
	}
}

EVENTNAME152003;Russia and the disintegration of the Golden Horde;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST152003;After the fall of the Golden Horde, foreign powers extended their influence in the area.;;;;;;;;;;

We still have a problem with Donetsk that could be completely disconnected from Russian mainland.

Code:

#(1500-1820) The Golden Horde Vanishes
event = {
	id = 210024 #triggered by CRI_152050
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = { #no need if all involved provinces are already owned by Lithuania
				owned = { province = 461 data = -1 } #Poltava
				owned = { province = 462 data = -1 } #Krementjug
			}
		}
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 295 data = -1 } #Ukraina
			owned = { province = 296 data = -1 } #Jedisan
			owned = { province = 460 data = -1 } #Donetsk
			owned = { province = 461 data = -1 } #Poltava
			owned = { province = 462 data = -1 } #Krementjug
		}
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 461 data = CRI } #Poltava
			owned = { province = 462 data = CRI } #Krementjug
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = LIT
	name = "EVENTNAME152050" #The Golden Horde Vanishes
	desc = "EVENTHIST152050"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "GREAT"
		command = { type = trigger which = 152004 } #CRI: Lithuania and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	}
}

Code:

#(1500-1820) Lithuania and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
event = {
	id = 152004 #triggered by LIT_210024
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 461 data = -1 } #Poltava
			owned = { province = 462 data = -1 } #Krementjug
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152004" #Lithuania and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	desc = "EVENTHIST152003"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "OH_NO"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 461 } #Poltava
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 462 } #Krementjug
	}
}

EVENTNAME152004;Lithuania and the disintegration of the Golden Horde;;;;;;;;;;

Code:

#(1500-1820) The Golden Horde Vanishes
event = {
	id = 301083 #triggered by CRI_152050
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = { #no need if all involved provinces are already owned by OE
				owned = { province = 296 data = -1 } #Jedisan
			}
		}
		owned = { province = 319 data = -1 } #Bujak
		owned = { province = 296 data = CRI } #Jedisan
		NOT = {
			owned = { province = 295 data = CRI } #Ukraina
			owned = { province = 297 data = CRI } #Podolia
			owned = { province = 318 data = CRI } #Moldova
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME152050" #The Golden Horde Vanishes
	desc = "EVENTHIST152050"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "GREAT"
		command = { type = trigger which = 152005 } #CRI: Ottoman Empire and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	}
}

Code:

#(1500-1820) Ottoman Empire and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
event = {
	id = 152005 #triggered by TUR_301083
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152005" #Ottoman Empire and the disintegration of the Golden Horde
	desc = "EVENTHIST152003"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "OH_NO"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 296 } #Jedisan
	}
}

EVENTNAME152005;Ottoman Empire and the disintegration of the Golden Horde;;;;;;;;;;

EDIT: typo! Desintegration => Disintegration

AGC-EEP Golden Horde and its Successors.

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