AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

[Twoflower]

red: issues being debated
yellow: debate closed, conclusion not yet implemented
things implemented in both mods right now
things implemented in AGC right now
things implemented in EEP right now
white: miscellaneous notes

Note that anything in green, blue and purple will go into the beta unless anybody strongly objects.

Country setup

• Austria is split into Austria, Styria and Tyrol
• Saxony is split into Meißen and Anhalt
• Salzburg is independent
• Ansbach is given to the Palatinat, representing the Upper Palatinat (Oberpfalz)
• Strassburg is removed from the game, the province of Alsace given to Tyrol
• Should Kleve be moved to Münster and Berg be created in the Kleve province?
• Should the Magdeburg province be given to Brandenburg in 1419, representing Altmark?
• (Connected with the above issue) Should the Küstrin province be given to the Teutonic Order in 1419?
• Should Salzburg be renamed and changed to Landshut, the most powerful Bavarian Wittelsbach branch?
• Should Mecklenburg be removed and the province given to Holstein?
• Should Mainz be removed and the province given to the Palatinat?
• Should Pommerania be split into Pommerania and Stettin in 1419

Culture issues

• Instead of German and Swiss culture, there is Upper German, Middle German and Low German (details discussed in the thread
• Should there be an even bigger split into six different cultures?
• Should Brandenburg or Austria be able to get Polish culture?
• Should Austria get Italian, Dutch or French culture at some time?
• Should Helvetia get French or Italian culture?
• Should Kleve get Dutch culture?

Province setup

• Should the Mecklenburg CoT be removed?
• Should, as replacement for Mecklenburg, there be a CoT in Prague, Vienna or Innsbruck so that Austria will eventually have one?
• Should Brandenburg, Saxony, Bavaria or Hannover be able to get a CoT in one of their provinces (Berlin, Munich and Leipzig have some justification at certain times)?
• Province good of Württemberg changed to wine
  Tax values and manpower will have to be reviewed since some of them are far from realistic or balanced now

Events

• HRE independence events
• Almost complete event sets for Bavaria, Württemberg, Münster, Hannover and Kleve
• German bishopric events vasalling them to secular states when these get a member of their dynasty elected bishop
• Hapsburg dynasty events in the 15th century, leading up to the eventual unification of the Hapsburg lands
• events for the relation between Denmark, Oldenburg and Holstein until the 17th century (the exchange of Oldenburg for Holstein still has to be done)
• Wettin dynasty events

tentative Country list:

Existing in 1419:

HAB Austria
PRM Stria
U19 Tyrol
BAY Bavaria
SLZ Landshut
WUR Wirtemberg
BAD Baden
THU Würzburg
PFA Palatinate
LOR Lorraine
KOL Cologne
MUN Berg
KLE Kleves
HES Hessen
SAC Saxony
U16 Meißen
BRA Brandenburg
HAN Hanover
OLD Oldenburg
BRE Bremen
MEC Mecklenburg
SHL Holstein
POM Pommerania
MAG Stettin

Existing in 1520:

HAB Austria
BAY Bavaria
BAD Baden
THU Würzburg
PFA Palatinate
LOR Lorraine
KOL Cologne
KLE Kleves
HES Hessen
SAC Saxony
U16 Meißen
BRA Brandenburg
HAN Hanover
OLD Oldenburg
BRE Bremen
MEC Mecklenburg
SHL Holstein
POM Pommerania

Removed:

STR Strassburg
MAI Mainz
MAG Magdeburg
MUN Münster (perhaps OLD instead?)

 

[Sute]{h]

I support the new culture setup. However shouldn't it be either: High German, Middel German, Low German or Upper German, Middel German, Lower German?

 

[Norrefeldt]

Good to see you back from that vacation Twoflower.

Originally posted by Twoflower

19. AGC culture setup in Germany: Swiss renamed to Upper German and extends to Austria, Bavaria and Swabia, German culture renamed to Middle German and Low German culture created in North Germany

I am not convinced of this one, I think these are too similar, like Scandinavian or Iberian cultures. But it all depends on what cultures could be omitted of the normal Paradox ones. Why is this wanted, because of cultural differences or as a way to put brakes on Austria? My wish is that the new cultures ought to go to ROTW, like the ones Jinnai have asked for in India and SE Asia, but that can be changed of course.

 

[unmerged(10630)]

Some economy event to add?

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
Good to see you back from that vacation Twoflower.

I'm not that happy about being back, though, I pretty much prefer beautiful Tuscany to old, grey Germany (not to mention that being home is usually associated with other unpleasant things like work ).

I am not convinced of this one, I think these are too similar, like Scandinavian or Iberian cultures. But it all depends on what cultures could be omitted of the normal Paradox ones. Why is this wanted, because of cultural differences or as a way to put brakes on Austria? My wish is that the new cultures ought to go to ROTW, like the ones Jinnai have asked for in India and SE Asia, but that can be changed of course.

It's a unification thread, hence this HAD to be listed since it's a change implemented in the AGC. Btw I edited the thread to differenciate between things already done in EEP or AGC and mere suggestions.
IMO the best culture setup is the one that works out best in the game, hence I believe culture setups should be evaluated mainly for their gameplay value.
That said, I contributed to the German culture discussion in the AGC back then myself, so I can name several arguments for it:
- it indeed stops Austrian expansion
- a case can be made for some foreign countries, like Denmark, Sweden, Hungary or Bohemia, getting German culture because they historically ruled the Germans in their territories without problems. Giving them the big German culture, which makes them able to control all of Germany easily, is very unbalancing, though. One of the three smaller cultures would be less dangerous (and in fact, while it makes sense for Denmark or Sweden to be able to control Holstein and Vorpommern, they should not have the culture of Bavaria or Austria)
- having a separate Swiss culture is strange
By now, I don't think too strongly about it anymore, though.

 

[Sute]{h]

As to Denmark with German culture it might not be needed if we have Schleswig turn Scandinavian.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Re: Culture

IMHO culture should only be adjusted if it was done in the whole of Europe (ie also French, Iberian, Scandinavian, Italian etc) For gamebalance purposes and consistency.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Twoflower

11. new setup in Mecklenburg and Holstein: Holstein province represents Schleswig and Mecklenburg Holstein, Holstein starts out owning both provinces and events concerning them are done

Just wanted to remind you that I strongly dislike this change. Schleswig and Holstien don't warrant seperate provinces. Mecklenburg is a state with a very interesting history (Wallenstien, a quite different constitution, etc.). Geographically, Mecklenburg province is in the wrong place for Holstein. And that's assuming you can get around the problem of Holstien country not owning Holstein province.

Sorry, but I think this is a big step backwards.

What would be interesting is a discussion of the independence events.

 

[Sute]{h]

Holstein will keep the Holstein province. It will simply make the process of creating the Holstein events much more easy and playable. As to geography look at this link:

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Meklenburg is east of its actual province on the map. Likewise Holstein is south of the Holstein province.

EDIT: Also making Holstein a two-province country will make it more of a fight for Denmark. Historically the counts of Holstein was a major power to contest with for Denmark.

 

[Classique]

Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just wanted to remind you that I strongly dislike this change. Schleswig and Holstien don't warrant seperate provinces. Mecklenburg is a state with a very interesting history (Wallenstien, a quite different constitution, etc.). Geographically, Mecklenburg province is in the wrong place for Holstein. And that's assuming you can get around the problem of Holstien country not owning Holstein province.

I agree with Isaac on not changing around Holstein and Mecklenburg in this manner.

Originally posted by Twoflower
13. new setup in Salzburg: country of Salzburg is renamed to (Bavaria-) Landshut

I haven't read the pros and cons for this yet, so my initial gut reaction is a no. Is there thread discussing this?

Originally posted by Twoflower
- culture setup in Germany: Swiss renamed to Upper German and extends to Austria, Bavaria and Swabia, German culture renamed to Middle German and Low German culture created in North Germany

On paper I like the idea because it would prevent ahistorical consolidation of the German lands, even though it would suppress the German-unifying war-mongering player in me. However, I ultimately agree with Ironfoundersson's point about consistency.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Sute]{h

Meklenburg is east of its actual province on the map. Likewise Holstein is south of the Holstein province.

And in neither case is there a huge difference.

EDIT: Also making Holstein a two-province country will make it more of a fight for Denmark. Historically the counts of Holstein was a major power to contest with for Denmark.

This is true for lots of one province minors in the game. I don't think it's a crazy change, but, to me, the negatives clearly outweight the positives.

 

[Garbon]

Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just wanted to remind you that I strongly dislike this change. Schleswig and Holstien don't warrant seperate provinces. Mecklenburg is a state with a very interesting history (Wallenstien, a quite different constitution, etc.). Geographically, Mecklenburg province is in the wrong place for Holstein. And that's assuming you can get around the problem of Holstien country not owning Holstein province.

Sorry, but I think this is a big step backwards.

What would be interesting is a discussion of the independence events.

I agree as well on this issue.

How exactly do the independence events work?

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Classique

I haven't read the pros and cons for this yet, so my initial gut reaction is a no. Is there thread discussing this?

I basically just threw it in. The base for it is:
- Salzburg was far from being a very important or active country throughout history. It survived until 1805, had some pesky conflicts with Austria and Bavaria (almost always on more of a diplomatic level), had some contested episcopal elections and expelled the protestants, and that's it; not much material for making it interesting in terms of events, leaders, monarchs or its general history.
- Salzburg hardly ever acts historically (or rather is not allowed to). In about 95 percent of the EEP games it is annexed by Austria or Bavaria within the first 50 years. I don't like to see that.
- Bavaria on the other hand is quite short changed right now, starting with only one province and being supposed to get its second one only in the 17th century. Historically, as soon as the different branches had been united in 1504, they were among the most powerful and influential princes in Germany and regarded as an almost equal counterpart by the Hapsburgs. In order to represent their quite notable strength, one additional province after 1504 could help and would make sense.
- Although it may at first sight look somewhat strange to have Bavaria own a province that is regarded as "Austrian", putting Landshut in the Salzburg province instead of Salzburg is geographically not less correct (in fact I'd say it is even more correct); Landshut did border the Upper Palatinate (Ansbach), Lower Austria (Ostmarch) and Bavaria-Munich (Bayern) and Styria and Tyrol were not that far away while Salzburg was nowhere near the Upper Palatinate and was in fact more south than the EU2 province
- Bayern-Landshut would be a nice country to have. Its rulers were called the "Rich Dukes" because it was such a prosperous country and after it had inherited the Bavaria-Ingolstadt branch, Bavaria-Landshut controlled two thirds of Bavaria, thus was stronger than its cousins in Munich. The "Landshuter Hochzeit" (marriage of Landshut) between Georg the Rich of Landshut and Jadviga of Poland, celebrated with a rare splendour, is one of the most remembered events in German medieval history. After the extinction of the Landshut branch there was a war of succession between Bavaria-Munich and the Palatinate, with Austria getting involved as well. Certainly Landshut played a more active role in imperial history than Salzburg.

 

[unmerged(10630)]

I'm agree with all those ideas. It's better to have a little stronger Bayern to avoid getting annexed quikly everytime.
We could reppresent better salzburg having a low centralization level for landshut.
What is tax value for this province at the moment?

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just wanted to remind you that I strongly dislike this change. Schleswig and Holstien don't warrant seperate provinces. Mecklenburg is a state with a very interesting history (Wallenstien, a quite different constitution, etc.). Geographically, Mecklenburg province is in the wrong place for Holstein. And that's assuming you can get around the problem of Holstien country not owning Holstein province.

Sorry, but I think this is a big step backwards.

What would be interesting is a discussion of the independence events.

The problem about Mecklenburg is that, in order to perform historically, it has to stick around with its one province for the whole EU2 period, and you will never see that in any game. It either gets annexed very quickly since it's such a tempting target with its CoT (that should be removed btw) or expands, both of which a very bad things.
So, instead of worrying how to make a country that was, albeit interesting and somewhat special (I agree that they would make for quite cool events, Isaac), never really a powerful force and further weakened by being partitioned often act historically, it might be better to improve the way Schleswig-Holstein is handled, thus making many Danish and Holstein events work out much more smoothly.
While it indeed is worse geographically and loosing Mecklenburg is somehow a pity, I'm inclined to think that Schleswig and Holstein could effectively prove better for gameplay and historicity.

 

[unmerged(10630)]

About holstein i disagree, much more better remove the cot from the province, replace it to somewhere in denemark (sund taxes) and let the actual province asset.

 

[Twoflower]

Look at it from a gameplay point of view:

Mecklenburg will in the majority of the games not be able to do what it did historically - basically nothing except sticking around with its one province for the whole period. Therefore it will be a constant problem, similarly to Ragusa or Salzburg.
Holstein in Mecklenburg and Schleswig in Holstein however would result in a more historical behaviour of Holstein and Denmark. We would be able to represent the division of Schleswig-Holstein between Denmark and Holstein-Gottorp, we would not have to worry that much about Holstein's survival, there could be the historical conflicts between the Danish King and the Duke of Gottorp that were one of the causes for the Great Nordic War. As soon as events are finished and the whole Scandinavian and Baltic situation is worked out and balanced, having two province Schleswig-Holstein will improve the way the game develops and result in more historical ai behaviour.
Hence, I see the matter not only as a question of geographical accuracy, but also as a choice between a one province Mecklenburg highly unlikely to act historically and a two province Schleswig-Holstein causing historical outcomes more often and improving balance in the area.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Re: Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Garbon

How exactly do the independence events work?

You should have a look to see the details, but basically they bring up an event (could all be random now) every time a German state disappears forcing the owner to release it as a vassal or suffer some nasty consequences. Certain countries were exempt for certain provinces.

It could now by improved by using the 'province' line (didn't work when this was done) and making them all random events (only majors used to get random events). There was a thread in Scenarios Events and Modifications a while ago.

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AGC & EEP: Germany & Austria

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
You should have a look to see the details, but basically they bring up an event (could all be random now) every time a German state disappears forcing the owner to release it as a vassal or suffer some nasty consequences. Certain countries were exempt for certain provinces.

It could now by improved by using the 'province' line (didn't work when this was done) and making them all random events (only majoers used to get random events). There was a thread in Scenarios Events and Modifications a while ago.

I personally don't like these events. They are deterministic and simply don't feel right.

 

[Classique]

I've always liked the idea of Mecklenburg in Vorpommern, Pomerania just in Hinterpommern, and Hanse in Mecklenburg, but support for that has always been mixed.