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AGC-EEP: German Unification

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The Kingdom of Germany should logically have cores on all the Kingdom of Germany, i.e. as well on the Hapsburgs' 1419 provinces (even including Krain) and the Dutch provinces except Friesland, Flandern and Artois.
Btw, please replace "Durch Kraft" which sounds somewhat awkward to German ears either by "Durch Gewalt" or just "by force" ("Blut und Stahl" would also sound nice, yet a little anachronistic ;) )
 
Aren't the Dutch provinces in the Kingdom of Burgundy/Lotharingia rather than the Kingdom of Germany?
 
They were definitely part of the Empire, but the Emperor was King of Germany, Burgundy, and Lotharingia. This may be a little too esoteric to worry about.
 
Is the event meant only to apply to BRA, or is that just an example?

Also, I notice having HAB as a vassal is a requirement. Perhaps there should be an "or" in there, so that owning the Habsburg capital is also sufficient? It seems to me that that would be another effective way of showing dominance (and the BB trigger would be even tougher then).
 
I'd think that HAB not existing (rather than owning Vienna, or indeed keeping track of where the Hapsburg capital is) would be sufficient. When the vassalage was for "-6" this wasn't an issue.
 
Would someone else conquering Austria be sufficient, though? I suppose it might, actually - creating a void that a new German state sought to fill.
Anyway, that question was why I suggested owning Vienna rather than HAB not existing. Either is fine by me.
 
Twoflower said:
Btw, please replace "Durch Kraft" which sounds somewhat awkward to German ears either by "Durch Gewalt" or just "by force" ("Blut und Stahl" would also sound nice, yet a little anachronistic ;) )
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Will do sir. That's what you get with college German ears. :D I figured since the Italian ones used fancy names, why not the German.

Zander said:
Is the event meant only to apply to BRA, or is that just an example?
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It's just an example. I would have an event for pretty much every single German nation to pull this off. It'd be a big file, but pretty open-ended for a player who wanted a challenge. :)

I think for the cores, I didn't want to have too many as I was afraid of creating a behemoth state that players would regard as unbalanced. But I'm willing to edit and alter based on what the general consensus is. An option might be to use the current cores, and then have events involving the extension of the German state into its old historical roles as King of Lotharingia, etc.

The more I read about the Hapsburgs, it almost seems better if they didn't exist, since their very existence will remain a constant negation of anyone's claim to be Germany. A question...if a country fulfills these triggers and owns all Electors. Are they guaranteed to become HRE at the next election?
 
Mettermrck said:
A question...if a country fulfills these triggers and owns all Electors. Are they guaranteed to become HRE at the next election?
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If they are not Catholic they almost certainly will not be elected. If they are not an elector (shouldn't be a problem, as all states than can unify Germany ought to be electors) the game can elect very strange people as HRE. If they are Catholic and are the only elector they will be elected unless they have excellent relations with catholic Spain, in which case Spain will be elected. (Austria isn't an problem as it's an elector).
 
Mettermrck said:
The more I read about the Hapsburgs, it almost seems better if they didn't exist, since their very existence will remain a constant negation of anyone's claim to be Germany.
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True, but I think vassalizing them would also be sufficient. If Austria is swearing fealty to a German state, after all, they're not really in a position to argue with that state's claims on Germany.
 
Benin is the most logical choice for Emperor

Isaac Brock said:
If they are not Catholic they almost certainly will not be elected. If they are not an elector (shouldn't be a problem, as all states than can unify Germany ought to be electors) the game can elect very strange people as HRE. If they are Catholic and are the only elector they will be elected unless they have excellent relations with catholic Spain, in which case Spain will be elected. (Austria isn't an problem as it's an elector).
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In my last GC, Benin changed religion from Pagan to Catholic. It was later elected as the HRE Emperor. Must have been a fashion craze for all things African.
 
It seemed that Luxemburg is missed as a core... It was part of German Kingdom and later, German Confederation, so Germany should have core on Luxemburg since it was part of Kingdom of Germany.

True, but I think vassalizing them would also be sufficient. If Austria is swearing fealty to a German state, after all, they're not really in a position to argue with that state's claims on Germany.
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Agreed. There may be a claim to the Kingdom by Hapsburg but could they really deny the claim to dominant German nation if they themselves are vassal?
 
Zhai said:
It seemed that Luxemburg is missed as a core... It was part of German Kingdom and later, German Confederation, so Germany should have core on Luxemburg since it was part of Kingdom of Germany.
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Depends on what it represents. The modern Grand Duchy was (I think) a part of the Kingdom. Originally the Duke of Luxembourg's territory included most of the modern Belgian province of Luxembourg, and much of the Belgian province of Liege. The province itself extends to the Meuse. Very little of the province was included in the German confederation. And most of it was in the Kingdom of Lotharingia, not the Kingdom of Germany (although it was obviously all in the Empire).

There is a reasonable case that it should be a core, but it's not open and shut. I personally think the province is much bigger than the part that was in Germany and so it should not be a core.
 
Zhai said:
It seemed that Luxemburg is missed as a core... It was part of German Kingdom and later, German Confederation, so Germany should have core on Luxemburg since it was part of Kingdom of Germany.
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As are Bohemia and Moravia.
Those were considered integral parts of the Kingdom of Germany, they were part of the HRE and later the German Confederation; many of the participants of the Frankfurt Assembly even intended to include Bohemia and Moravia in the new nationalistic Germany.
 
Again I believe that is incorrect. They were certainly part of the Empire, and after 1815 they were part of the German Confederation. However, if I'm not mistaken they were part of the Kingdom of Bohemia rather than the Kingdom of Germany.
 
Isaac Brock said:
Again I believe that is incorrect. They were certainly part of the Empire, and after 1815 they were part of the German Confederation. However, if I'm not mistaken they were part of the Kingdom of Bohemia rather than the Kingdom of Germany.
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I think we're trying to simulate a unification of the German elements of the Empire, as embodied in the Kingdom of Germany. Of course if you look at maps of the Holy Roman Empire, such as this one from 1360, it looks like Germany means everything outside of Italy. I guess we're doing a minimalist approach here, leaving out Bohemia, Moravia, Luxembourg, the Low Countries, Lorraine, etc.
 
That Bohemia and Moravia were part of the German Confederation proofs that every german prince considered them a part of Germany. Thus the German prince with the audacity and the power to proclaim him King of Germany, would certianly have claimed this territories.

IMHO the borders of the German Confederation could be used to decide which provinces to include in the German Kingdom, in addition to Alsace and Lorraine, because these were considered crucial in order to defend against a french invasion.
 
Mettermrck said:
I think we're trying to simulate a unification of the German elements of the Empire, as embodied in the Kingdom of Germany. Of course if you look at maps of the Holy Roman Empire, such as this one from 1360, it looks like Germany means everything outside of Italy. I guess we're doing a minimalist approach here, leaving out Bohemia, Moravia, Luxembourg, the Low Countries, Lorraine, etc.
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I note that your link uses "Kingdom of Romany", not Germany.

Technically the Holy Roman Empire included several diffferent Kingdoms.

The Kingdom of Burgundy included much of Switzerland, Franche Comte, Provence, Savoy, and parts of Piedmont.
The Kingdom of Italy included all of Italy north of the Papal States except Venice, with disputes with the Pope over places like Parma and Modena.
The Kingdom of Lotharingia included Lorraine, Alssce, all of the Rhineland from the Palatinate down, and most of the Low Countries.
The Kingdom of Bohemia included Bohemia and Moravia.

I'm not sure how well the Kingdom of Germany was technically defined, but as I understand it, it excluded all of the previous Kingdoms.

The German Confederation is a complete anachronism, and I have no idea why it should be the basis for a Germany formed before (say) 1750. I don't see why Bohemia and Moravia should be included when Franche Comte, and Brabant are not. Each was just as much a part of 'Germany' in 1500.

I think we agree that shields over the entire Empire make little sense. I don't think that the Kingdom of Germany as constituted in 1419 or 1600 makes much sense as a basis for this replacement Germany. Twoflower believes otherwise
The Kingdom of Germany should logically have cores on all the Kingdom of Germany, i.e. as well on the Hapsburgs' 1419 provinces (even including Krain) and the Dutch provinces except Friesland, Flandern and Artois.
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(and I'll note that I disagree with the exclusion of Artois. If Brabant is in Artois should be too.

Areas open to interpretation (all in the Empire) include
1)Modern Austrian/Slovenian lands
2)Kingdom of Burgundy (Franche Comte-Savoy-Schwyz-Bern)
3)Rhineland (Alsace-Lorraine)
4)Low Countries (with or without Friesland)
5)Kingdom of Bohemia (basically BOH in 1419)
6)trans-Oder Germany (Neumark, Further Pommerania)

I include the last because these were not part of the Kingdom of Germany in 1419, although they were part of the Empire.

I personnally would include 1) and 3) and exclude the rest.
 
Considering a Unification of Germany in the time zone the game is in is anachronistic as can be, as there is in fact a German Empire, the Holy Roman. The only problem is that this Empire is not a centralized state with a "strong" monarch as was France or England. If a German Unification is to be implemented, why not follow this course:
Give the player going for this goal, at first, only shields for central German provinces, like all the Electorates an minor states with German culture.
After concluding the goal to unite a central German power, all the other cores that are or were part of the HRE can be added, as a Monarch that has been able to unite the central german provinces would very possibly have tried to reestablish the HRE in full, including Italy, Bohemia an all the other moreless "outlandish" possesions the German King as HR Emperor once held.
Similar to the fantasy events giving the Byzantine Empire more cores once it has managed to reestablish its central possessions.
In this course, I would not add the cultures being present in these provinces, as a Reunification of the HRE would have went against all uprising struggles for nationalism in these lands.
But this struggle would, in now way I believe, had stopped a strong German King from trying to reestablish old Glory.
 
Not a bad idea, although I'd like to reiterate that the German Kingdom and the Empire were not the same thing. Still regarding this...

Arnulf said:
Give the player going for this goal, at first, only shields for central German provinces, like all the Electorates an minor states with German culture.
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Bohemia is one of the electorates! What do you mean by 'Central German' provinces? All those that I haven't listed?

I do agree that a united Germany would inevitably have tried to assert control over all the imperial lands, ultimately including Italy.
 
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