Arnulf

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As a monarch going for the Unification of Germany would also, or in real life mainly, be a noble of the HRE, with the main German cores I mean everything Eastern (including) Friesland, Oldenbourg, Münster, Kleves, Köln, Luxembourg, Alsace, Southern of (including) Holstein, In the East including everything inside the Borders of the HRE as it is in the AGCEEP, and all Northern of (including) Baden, Würtemberg, Tirol and Steiermark (which will make sure that there will be no Habsburg hanging around causing trouble).
As I see it, there will be different German cultures present in the AGCEEP (or are yet). As a German King will (or should) only get these others cultures after having been able to unite all these Mainlands, this should be hard enough to accomplish for the start off.
The question is, at which point would a dominant monarch try to proclaim himself as the king of Germany? I would think that setting a trigger after having claimed x of these mainlands making it possible for the player to go for the german goal would be a good way.
I see it like this:
Player A (playing a German minor, say Bavaria) will not be able to claim the Crown of being the German King until he has at least taken control of say 50% of the land once to be united. At that point a event might fire making it possible for him to stay inside the old rules (Option A) or go for a a unified Germany (Option B), but he will not be able to proclaim himself as German King (changing the tag to KoG) before he has not conquered (in what way ever) all the central cores i mentioned above. At this point he will be able to proclaim himself king of germany, acquiring all german cultures.
 

MichaelK

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The question of the pure German Empire in 15-18 century did not really arised.
The HRE was actually called "A holy roman empire of a german nation". It was considered by the germans as a German Empire. Sometimes non-German emperor were elected but this was an exception.
IMHO to create a German Empire is to make HRE a centralised and united country. The conditions could be as follows:

a) Be an emperor (means you should have a good relationship with German states and a reasonably low badboy).
b) Has a german culture.
c) Be an elector
d) Own the number of key HRE states (Vienna, Cologne, Milan, Pfaltz, Bohemia, Mainz, Hanover, Saxony and Brandenburg). I put the terrirtories which represented electors in history (not in EUII) and added Vienna and Milan as very important imperial cities.

The result could be like this:
a) vp = 200
b) stability = 2
c) centralisation = 3

Add as core provinces all the HRE provinces. It will be a very serious advantage, but if we wish to model a creation of the real German Empire it will be historically right.

As far as I can see only Austria AI could realistically do this, which is how it should be. In real history no other german state was strong enough before the middle of 19 century.
 

Rhodz

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I think a several-tiered approach is required. If the state in question has conquered or vassalised all electors, an event should arise "Quest for the Kingdom" and give cores on the LOWEST NUMBER OF GERMAN PROVINCES WE CAN AGREE ON.

Then, when these are conquered, a new event should occur, though you'd need low badboy. This event would give cores on the Kingdom of Germany(NOT THE EMPIRE) Meaning all provinces that were considered part of the Kingdom of Germany, Not of Lotharingen, Not of Burgundy, Nor Bohemia, only KoG.

Once these are conquered and Badboy kept to a minimum, country changes tag to KoG and perhaps gains all german cultures?

Then, if the player conquers all Empire cities(there should be both an event for before and after the point where the Italian cities stop being part of the Empire), They will (after conquest) get cores on those territories and many benefits, as a German Kingdom in control of the Entire Empire.
 

unmerged(6159)

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Rhodz said:
Then, when these are conquered, a new event should occur, though you'd need low badboy. This event would give cores on the Kingdom of Germany(NOT THE EMPIRE) Meaning all provinces that were considered part of the Kingdom of Germany, Not of Lotharingen, Not of Burgundy, Nor Bohemia, only KoG.

Lotharingia includes Cleves, Cologne and the Palatinate. I don't see how you exclude these provinces from the early cores.
 

Mettermrck

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MichaelK said:
As far as I can see only Austria AI could realistically do this, which is how it should be. In real history no other german state was strong enough before the middle of 19 century.

Keep in mind that I am proposing a 'brute force' approach. While I agree it is highly unlikely any state could have forcibly welded a German state together in real history...in the game, it's conceivable that a PC state could. Basically I want to give the player that option, to unite Germany by force, and basically upset all of Europe in the process. :) This isn't the only option proposed by Twoflower, and there would be others involving the Hapsburgs and centralization.

What I'm proposing is an option available to any German state that can pull off a miracle. I think right now we're concerned with the cores, and I'm not sure we'll ever have a perfect list. I personally favor the German + Hapsburg cores now listed, and then we can have later events for moving into Lotharingia and the Low Countries. Perhaps Bohemia as well. There will always be some debate on this, and players are free to add and subtract their own cores. But for the mod, it's important to have a basic consensus on what we're defining the Kingdom of Germany as.
 

unmerged(6159)

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Mettermrck said:
There will always be some debate on this, and players are free to add and subtract their own cores. But for the mod, it's important to have a basic consensus on what we're defining the Kingdom of Germany as.

Makes sense. I feel that it MUST include at least parts of Lotharingia (Kleves, Pfalz, Cologne, Oldenburg etc.). I also feel that it MUST include the German speaking parts of Austria, and ought to include Styria/Carinthia/Carniola as well.
I also feel it ought to include trans-Oder Germany, but don't see it as essential.

Finally I don't like the idea of giving out all the cores before anything has been conquered. The initial proposal doesn't really include this, but Arnulf's does, as presented here:
After concluding the goal to unite a central German power, all the other cores that are or were part of the HRE can be added, as a Monarch that has been able to unite the central german provinces would very possibly have tried to reestablish the HRE in full, including Italy, Bohemia an all the other moreless "outlandish" possesions the German King as HR Emperor once held.

I'd prefer to let the player know that they need to take over the Kingdom of Lothar as their right as King of Germany. Once they have taken over the Kingdom of Lotharingia under some definition (owning 10 of the 16 provinces say) then, and only then do they get cores over the whole Lotharingian Kingdom.

edit: changed the last "Kingdom" to "Lotharingian Kingdom". Was awfully confusing before!
 
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Mettermrck

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Isaac Brock said:
I'd prefer to let the player know that they need to take over the Kingdom of Lothar as their right as King of Germany. Once they have taken over the Kingdom of Lotharingia under some definition (owning 10 of the 16 provinces say) then, and only then do they get cores over the whole Kingdom.

So in addition to the triggers in place now, you also favor conquest of a decent portion of Lotharingia before any unification takes place?

EDIT: Never mind, Twoflower explained to me what you meant. :)
 
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Twoflower

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It's about time for me to give some substantial input here I think :) Alright, since there appears to be a huge misconception on Lotharingia, I'll begin with a bit of history on Lotharingia
  • the first defining point here is the treaty of Verdun of 843. It divided the Empire of Charlemagne into a West Frankish part (later the Kingdom of France), a middle part (called Lotharingia, because it was ruled by Lothar, Charles' eldest son and successor as Emperor, however this is a sort of confusing naming, since the real Lotharingia only emerged in 855) and an East Frankish part (later the Kingdom of Germany). It established these borders:
    verdun843a.gif
  • upon the abdication of Lothar I in 855, his domains were partitioned among his three sons, into the Kingdom of Italy, the Kingdom of Provence and the Kingdom of Lotharingia (which is the "real" Lotharingia, and was named that way because it was ruled by Lothar II)
    Lotharingien_Teilung.png
  • the Kingdom of Provence was inherited by Emperor Ludwig II, King of Italy, in 863
  • after the death of Lothar II in 870, Lotharingia was divided among his uncles Charles the Bald, King of France, and Ludwig the German, King of Germany, by the Treaty of Meersen. France received the Lowlands and modern Lorraine, Germany got Alsace and the Rhineland. At this point there were only the Kingdoms of Germany, France and Italy; the Kingdoms of Provence and Lotharingia had ceased to exist and their territory was fully part of the three remaining Kingdoms
    844-870map.jpg
  • Thereafter, the Kingdom of Lotharingia existed only (if at all) as a concept, and the famous plan of Charles the Bold was not to convince the Emperor to give up an existing Lotharingian crown and ceding the right to it to him, but to create a new Kingdom of Lotharingia, alienating the territories belonging to it from the Kingdom of Germany.
  • the brother of Charles the Bald, Bodo, who had been appointed governor of the land by the former, reconstituted the Kingdom of Provence, roughly within the boundaries it had had before, during the mess after the death of Charles the Bald in 879. This Kingdom is also (incorrectly) called the Kingdom of Cisjurane Burgundy.
  • the Kingdom of Transjurane Burgundy was established by Rudolf, count of Auxerre in 888, in an act of usurpation
  • the Cisjurane and the Transjurane Kingdom of Burgundy were united in 933, creating the Kingdom of Burgundy or Arelat. This Kingdom passed to Holy Roman Emperor Conrad II in 1032. Several later Emperors were crowned as Kings of Burgundy/Arles and the Kingdom still remained in theory separate

What I'm trying to say by this is that by 1419, there was no Kingdom of Lotharingia. Most of it had become directly part of the Kingdom of Germany. The three Kingdoms held by the Emperor were that of Germany, Burgundy/Arles/Gaul and Italy. This can be proven quite easily by the fact that the Golden Bull established three archchancellors, one for each Kingdom:
- the Archbishop of Cologne as Archchancellor of the Empire for the Kingdom of Germany
- the Archbishop of Trier as Archchancellor of the Empire for the Kingdom of Gaul
- the Archbishop of Mainz as Archchancellor of the Empire for the Kingdom of Italy

For this reason, I strongly disagree with any attempt on a "historical" argumentation for not giving cores on the territories that were part of Lotharingia in the 9th century. I do understand the game balance concerns, but the matter of the fact is that all of former Lotharingia (except the parts held by the King of France of course) was firmly part of the Kingdom of Germany.
 

|AXiN|

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Just an aid for the events themselves - you'll probably want to add wakemonarch and wakeleader commands for all the relevant monarchs and leaders, possibly based on the Kingdom of Italy model
 

Mad King James

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Perhaps Lotharingia as a conceptual idea? IE:

France begins with their traditional French cores minus French Burgundy and French Lotharingia, as they are in a somewhat damaged and diminished state. As they grow stronger they express their claims upon these former territories.

Likewise, a resurgeant Kingdom of Germany would begin with the traditional Kingdom of Germany and express claim over German Lotharingia and German Burgundy as it grew stronger.

Just to toss out another idea, perhaps it should be possible for the kingdoms of Germany, Bohemia, or Italy to reforge a united Holy Roman Empire by becoming the sole and centralized ruler of all three kingdoms? Should France be able to do this too, being a former member of the HRE?
 

unmerged(24862)

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Mad King James said:
Just to toss out another idea, perhaps it should be possible for the kingdoms of Germany, Bohemia, or Italy to reforge a united Holy Roman Empire by becoming the sole and centralized ruler of all three kingdoms? Should France be able to do this too, being a former member of the HRE?

I don´t think so.
France´s Goal was to destroy the HRE; they took every province from the HRE they could get hold off and made it part of France instead. If they woul have been able to conquer the HRE, they would have claimed that it was part of "greater France". The German Princes would have never recognized such claims, so no Cores for France.
 

ForzaA

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Right, since the German unification has gotten its own thread now, I'll toss my ideas back in :)

ForzaA said:
some other reasons why a (partially) unified Germany *could* have come into existance...

1) just as Pommern, Köln and Prussia are inherited by Brandenburg and Bohemia was offered to Friedrich V (the winterking).. they were definately not purely due to marriages and the like, a lot of it was politics and religion (better to be ruled by x then suppresed by catholics)

on both sides of the 30 years war it was very possible that a line of rulers could die out (illnesses, plunderings, fighting) and that the country would then be offered to one of that side of the religious division who could protect the people

this could definately have led to a further unification of northern (or southern) Germany.

2) the Habsburgs taking a more decisive stand earlier on in the religious strife, actually going to war around say 1560 to try and suppress protestantism, this could have led to the unification of the northern German principalities.. or to the complete governance of northern Germany by various loyal (ie. Catholic) southern german states (or only Habsburg :) )

3) Outside threat #1 the Ottoman Empire not only besieging, but also TAKING Vienna and extending its rule INTO the HRE. This would have called for a more unified attempt to protect the integrity of the HRE, not a unification iniated by one state, but rather the unification of the german states behind a ruler who was seen as the one having the best chance to beat back the Ottomans

4) Outside threat #2 France aiming for southern Germany (most likely) and actually having some success (......see #3)

5) other possible outside threats, though OE and FRA have the best "shot"

6) a stroke of luck (or skill) makes one of the german states the envy of the rest of the world (or at least the german states) for example by claiming large parts of the new world, acquiring a great merchant empire, soundly beating OE or France etc etc..
with the other german states BEGGING to be part of it (trading rights, colonial charters, just being ruled by the "liberator of Constantinople" )
 

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Mad King James said:
France begins with their traditional French cores minus French Burgundy and French Lotharingia, as they are in a somewhat damaged and diminished state. As they grow stronger they express their claims upon these former territories.
What do you mean by "French Lotharingia"? Flanders? Or all of the land in the split of 870? French Burgundy should not be part of Lotharingia under any definition.

Just to toss out another idea, perhaps it should be possible for the kingdoms of Germany, Bohemia, or Italy to reforge a united Holy Roman Empire by becoming the sole and centralized ruler of all three kingdoms? Should France be able to do this too, being a former member of the HRE?

Holy Roman Empire usually refers to the Ottonian Empire, so I don't see France as a member.

Twoflower I'm not sure the situation with the crown of Lotharingia was quite as clear cut as you're saying. Are you sure that the idea of the kingdom of Lothar was really that completely dead?
 
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Twoflower

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Isaac Brock said:
Twoflower I'm not sure the situation with the crown of Lotharingia was quite as clear cut as you're saying. Are you sure that the idea of the kingdom of Lothar was really that completely dead?

The idea was not dead, after all Charles the Bold did want to be King of Lotharingia for a reason. However, the institution was. It would have had to be recreated.
 

Mettermrck

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Ok, I'm back after wrapping up some other projects. Where do we stand with this? My original hopes were to get something finalized and introduce it in to the game, to produce momentum for a realistic series of German unification events. It's given that we will never reach 100% consensus. But I think we should produce something that is generally acceptable. I had thought that brute-force would be the easiest German events to do. :)

From what I've read, I think there's some discussion over cores, in some cases that the event grants too many, or in others, too few. In my view, I lean towards the idea that it's best to grant the player a central group of cores...a minimal initial event upon which we can build if we want to work with other concepts like the Kingdoms of Burgundy, Arles, or Lotharingia.

I'm still very much enthused for coding and testing these events. But it's important to get consensus for the ideas. I would very much like to finish something, get it out there, and have a discussion about modifications and alterations if need be. :) That way we can make progress and put German unification to rest at long last.
 

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Mettermrck said:
From what I've read, I think there's some discussion over cores, in some cases that the event grants too many, or in others, too few. In my view, I lean towards the idea that it's best to grant the player a central group of cores...a minimal initial event upon which we can build if we want to work with other concepts like the Kingdoms of Burgundy, Arles, or Lotharingia.

I'm still very much enthused for coding and testing these events. But it's important to get consensus for the ideas. I would very much like to finish something, get it out there, and have a discussion about modifications and alterations if need be. :) That way we can make progress and put German unification to rest at long last.
Good to see this one hasn't disappeared. Seems very wise to go for a minimal initial sequence, that no one think is going to far. It's better to expand it later on instead.
 

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Norrefeldt said:
Good to see this one hasn't disappeared. Seems very wise to go for a minimal initial sequence, that no one think is going to far. It's better to expand it later on instead.

I started playing with the German unification events some time ago and thought I'd throw in some observations here. I tried two different tacks: one where Austria refuses the Hungarian crown and goes for an option b which is "I will be king of Germany instead", and one which I tested for Brandenburg.

For Austria the b option gave them cores on their German neighbors. This was purely for gameplay balance as there had to be some reason to refuse the lucrative Hungary inheritance. From that point on whenever they conquered a German minor they got cores on that minor (cores *after* conquest, not before).

Overall the experiment for Austria was a dismal failure. While it worked fine for the AI when I swapped the options for testing, for a player there's absolutely no reason to forego Hungary. As Austria you already have German culture so all you're going to get is cores. As a player you've probably already conquered your neighbors by 1540, and the addition of Hungary will make the domination of Germany that much easier to achieve. And since the cores come only after conquest, all they give you is the small advantage of not having to deal with 30 years of nationalism (not a big deal as the Austrian Empire) and increased manpower values (which don't matter a damn in the game anyway, since manpower is so easy to come by).

So, ultimately, it makes no sense to become Germany as Austria using the events I tested. The 'carrot' of Germany isn't worth the 'carrot' of Hungary. A rational player will never choose option b.

For Brandenburg I had the 'Kingdom of Germany' event trigger once they conquered a few of their neighbors. From that point on it worked just like the Austrian events, i.e., they got cores on conquered German minors (again, cores after conquest, not before). Now for Brandenburg this was actually a useful event; cores do matter, and are especially useful for reclaiming any territory which may be lost in wars with neighbors. And in any event, Brandenburg doesn't have any alternative options of value. It was an extremely hairy ride early on since it bollixes all of your relations and will almost certainly result in a series of wars with larger powers, but if you manage to make it past the initial hurdles the 'carrot' is worth the effort.

I would assume the same would be true with any other German minor, although I never tested for any country other than Brandenburg (hmmm, maybe Saxony, but it's been awhile).

So, the events are useful from a player point of view if you're playing a German minor, and not at all useful if you're Austria and can look forward to adding Hungary to your Empire.

I never solved the 'Austria' problem, and in fact came to this thread to see if someone had a better idea (I'm reviewing my German unification events). The problem is that any 'carrot' of equal value to inheriting Hungary is going to have to be a very big carrot; and if you dilute it's value by giving Austria huge relations or badboy hits then no rational player will ever take the option.

Max
 

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Thoughts on Austria and Germany

My thoughst on unification are perhaps not the cleanest, but here they are.

As a preface, I don't know AGCEEP's breakup of the German lands; my provincial breakdown is based on vanilla GC setup. Modify as needed! :)

1) in order to become Germany, first you have to own the so-called "Stem Duchies" of Saxony (Hannover, Holstein, Oldenburg); Franconia (Hessen, Palatinate, Kleves, Pfalz); Swabia (Baden, Wurtemburg); Bavaria (Bayern, Ansbach); and Thuringia (Anhalt).

2) in the above, I left out several Churchy provinces because I'm unsure what status they would have in a unified Germany: Bremen, Magdeburg, Munster, Cologne, Mainz, Alsace, and Wurzburg. I figure these being Church lands, a Catholic would be unlikely to grab them (vassalize, perhaps?). Some of them (all except Munster and Alsace) go Protestant or Reformed, so this issue may need to be eliminated and the provinces added to the above list of "need to own" provinces. Naturally, Germany, especially a protestant one, will want the church provinces anyway. If protestant, the church provinces can effect unification as well.

3) I don't see Austria as a problem. If one thinks of Austria as a "political entity" rather than a "nation" as such, then as I see it Austria would never become Germany. Simply, like France, any German lands Austria gets represent a centralization of Imperial authority rather than an attempt to gain a crown they already theoretically possess.

4) I see the process this way: if Baden, Wurtemburg, Bavaria, the Palatinate, Hessen, Hannover, Oldenburg, or Kleves (and maybe Holstein?) manage to unite the provinces in Point 1. Then, they get the unification event, giving them cores on those provinces. Then they conquer the church provinces. Another event confirming those as cores. Then we get to Austria and the assorted marches.

5) So, Germany will want Austria as well as the Ostmark (Sachsen), Nordmark (Brandenburg), and the "march of the billungs" (Mecklenburg, Vorpommern). For the marches, like the Church lands, conquer them and then receive them as cores via event. Excluding Hinterpommern and Kustrin, which aren't historically part of Germany.

6) Austria is more complex. My thoughts assume Austria has inherited Bohemia at least, preferably Hungary as well. In that case, a war with Austria has to happen. If Germany occupies all of Austria's starting provinces (Austria, Ostmarch, Tyrol, Steiermark, Salzburg) as well as Prague and Budapest, then an event triggers ceding the Austrian provinces to Germany. Alternately, if Germany force-vassalizes Austria, then Austria cedes those lands. Germany gets cores on them.

I know there are a lot of holes in this idea, but I think it's basis is reasonable. Fire away! :)
 

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I think a series of events such as the way the OE gains cores with each monarch would be a way to solve the problems of Lothargian, etc. When the KoG has conquered all of Germany have a new event where he claims lothargia or burgundy or italia, etc. This way if the KoG cant expand than there is no need to give them cores. Also it will keep the computer from spreading out too much and ignoring the core German provinces.