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doktarr said:
I don't see any reason the others need phenomenal DIP ratings as these guys didn't do anything like broker new trading regimes in East Asia. The best foreign policy of the period (other than foreign conquest) was probably the treaties with Russia, which strike me more as diplomatic recognition of the military "facts on the ground" than great victories of diplomatic skill.

In fact, from my ignorant Western perspective, Yongle's diplomatic policy seems more impressive than that of any of the Manchu monarchs. I suggest the following stat lines for the three monarchs:

Yongle's diplomatic policy for oversea vassals was great. On the other hand, Kangxi's diplomatic policy was great for continental vassals. He faced several fronts of wars (three revolted states, Taiwan, Dzunger mongol, Russia, and heretic) but solved them step by step. His uniting strategy was "southeast first, northwest next". So Kangxi choosed to conquer the three revolted southern states and taiwan in the first stage. At the same time, he played several diplomatic tricks to hold vassals in east monglia and tibet. Some mongolian tribes followed his instruction to pretend to accept Dzunger mongol's supermacy. Thus, Dzunger's ruler, Galdan, thought he had chance to recreate mongol empire but was actually fooled by Kangxi's. After Kangxi crushed the south revolters, Galdan was the next. That was the end of independence of mongol before modern mongol.

BTW, about trading, Kangxi did open several trading ports to western worlds. But some of them were closed in Yongzheng's age because some missionaries were involved in the battle (not real war though) of crown. Then China was doomed to lag western worlds.
 
Last edited:

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doktarr said:
As a purely practical note, I'd add that Yangzheng's stats are far less significant that the other two, as he only reigns for 13 years, while the other two reign for 61 years each (wow).

Yap, AFAIK, they were two longest emperors in the Chinese history. The Qianlong handovered his crown to his heir three years before he died because he did not want ot be "Greater" than the greatest emperor, his grandfather Kangxi. Frankly speaking, Qianlong was also among the greatest emperor, but just not as great as Kangxi. Keep in mind that they were all alien. If they were not that great, Manchu may have the same future with former alien dynasty Mongol. So, that was why they worked hard to be good emperors.
 

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jchiang said:
Yap, AFAIK, they were two longest emperors in the Chinese history. The Qianlong handovered his crown to his heir three years before he died because he did not want ot be "Greater" than the greatest emperor, his grandfather Kangxi. Frankly speaking, Qianlong was also among the greatest emperor, but just not as great as Kangxi. Keep in mind that they were all alien. If they were not that great, Manchu may have the same future with former alien dynasty Mongol. So, that was why they worked hard to be good emperors.
Maybe he should be better than Yangzheng then?

Here's a great section, originally from Washington State University, that I found on the chineseyeyes page. It's obnoxiously long, but I think it does a great job of summing up each emperor:
Washington State U said:
Hsüan-yeh, who styled himself the K'ang-hsi emperor (1662-1722). He was only eight years old, so the government fell to four regents. However, in 1667, at the age of thirteen, K'ang-hsi assumed the leadership of the government and expelled the regents. From this very early age, K'ang-hsi was one of the strongest and most dynamic of the Ch'ing emperors. Like the Hong Wu emperor at the start of the Ming dynasty, K'ang-hsi was tireless in his administration of government. On a typical day, he would rise long before sunrise and by five AM would begin holding audiences to receive officials; his day rarely ended before midnight. In Chinese versions of history, K'ang-hsi is considered one of only a handful of emperors that fit the ideal pattern. He was brilliant, energetic, moral, and tirelessly devoted to the administration of the government.

Conscious of the bitterness that Dorgan and the Shun-chih emperor had raised by giving away Chinese lands, K'ang-hsi ended that practice and began returning lands to native Chinese. He greatly increased the number of Chinese in high official positions and greatly increased the efficiency of revenue collection by appointing Chinese servants to oversee provincial financial, textile, and judicial commissions. He increased his own power by creating out of this network a secret, personal bureaucracy; added to this personal bureaucracy was his creation of a secret and personal intelligence-gathering bureaucracy.

K'ang-hsi believed that his power rested solely on the welfare and good will fo the common people. In order to secure that good will, his most common political practice was to remit or reduce taxes. He strove to create new confidence in imperial government by cleaning out corruption with a severe hand. He also believed that learning was the foundation of government and became one of the most profligate sponsors of learning in Chinese imperial history. He himself would sit through hours of academic lectures every day and demanded high levels of learning from his officials.

It was K'ang-hsi who completed the wars of conquest started almost a century earlier by Nurhaci. His greatest conquest was the suppression of the Three Feudatories. The Ch'ing had come to power through the help of Chinese generals who had defected to their side. In reward for this service, they granted each of the major generals their own territories; these nearly independent territories were known as the Three Feudatories. While Shun-chih tolerated these semi-autonomous states, K'ang-hsi strove to curtail their power. When they broke out into open rebellion in 1673, K'ang-hsi managed to conquer all three territories by 1681.

K'ang-hsi's biggest threat, however, came from the Mongols and the Russians in the north. Beginning in the late 1500's, Russians began to aggressively expand their territory. They moved west into Europe, south into Ottoman territories, and gradually expanded east across Asia. By the 1640's, the Russians had conquered Siberia and were making raids into Manchu and Chinese territory. K'ang-hsi feared an alliance between Russians and Mongols, so he aggressively attacked the Mongols and seized territory in Turkestan. He then turned on the Russians and defeated them soundly in 1685. This led to the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689, which was China's first treaty with a European power. With the Russians out of the way, K'ang-hsi defeated the Mongols in 1696 and in 1697, he incorporated Outer Mongolia and Hami into the Chinese Empire. By 1750, under the leadership of Emperor Ch'ien-lung, the Ch'ing conquered all of Turkestan, making the Ch'ing empire the largest Chinese empire in history.

Yung-cheng - At the death of the K'ang-hsi emperor, Yung-cheng, at the age of 45, became emperor of China. Although he ruled for only twelve years, from 1723 to 1735, he greatly modified Ch'ing government. Deeply suspicious by nature, he concentrated power into his own hands. He seriously curtailed the feudal powers enjoyed by Manchu princes and then he took away their military power; all military power, which had been shared by the earlier Ch'ing emperors, was now concentrated in the hands of the emperor.

Like that of the Hong Wu emperor, the administration of the Yung-cheng emperor worked effectively because he was absolutely tireless in his administration of government. He kept all his officials on a very short leash and punished incompetence, insubordination, and corruption with an unmatched fury. He expanded K'ang-hsi's personal intelligence-gathering network into a secret police feared by every government official. He did not fight corruption with just a heavy hand; he also rewarded officials for not being corrupt by setting up an "integrity nourishing allowance." This allowance rewarded virtuous service and partially eliminated the temptation to charge surtaxes or to take bribes.

His most significant innovation in the conduct of the state was the creation of the Grand Council in 1729. This Council was designed to help directly the Emperor in the drafting of edicts and to serve as the primary advisory council in matters of state and military government. This was the most far-reaching and efficient innovation of the Ch'ing period, for the Grand Council, which usurped the powers of the Grand Secretary, was able to formulate policy quickly, efficiently, and privately. So efficient was it that it was retained for most of the Ch'ing period.

Ch'ien-lung - The last great emperor of the early Ch'ing was Hung-li, who styled himself the Ch'ien-lung emperor (1736-1795). His reign was awesomely long; at a length of fifty-nine years, it is second only to K'ang-hsi's reign, which lasted for sixty-one years. All during his boyhood, Ch'ien-lung had been prepared for the throne. He was rigorously trained in the Classics, in Confucianism, the ethics and practice of government, and in Manchu military arts. By the time he became emperor at the age of twenty-five, he was perhaps the best trained individual for the job in all of Chinese history.

He announced that the rule of his father had been too strict, while that of K'ang-hsi, his grandfather, had been too lenient. He announced a "middle course" for his own government and, with two brilliant assistants, the first decade and a half of his rule was marked by peace and unprecedented prosperity. He was one of the greatest military emperors of the dynasty. He finally conquered the Mongols in 1759 and, by the next year, had annexed all of Turkestan. In 1770, he subjugated Burma and again, in 1789, he brought Annam beneath his rule. The Ch'ing empire had now become the greatest empire in Chinese history and possibly the world.

But while the Ch'ing empire reached its highest point under the Ch'ien-lung emperor, both Chinese and Western historians date the decline of the empire to the same figure in history. At the age of sixty-five, growing increasingly senile and decrepit, Ch'ien-lung fell for a handsome palace guard named Ho-shen (1750-1799). He was first made Grand Councillor and then a minister of the Imperial Household. Assured of the Emperor's constant good graces and increasingly in control of the senile old man, Ho-shen was free to do whatever he pleased whenever he pleased. He was unabashedly corrupt and demanded bribes with complete abandon. His practices spread throughout the government and into the provinces; by the 1790's, the imperial government had become hopelessly corrupt. Ch'ien-lung retired in 1795, but he still controlled the government. It wasn't until his death in 1799 that Ho-shen was finally executed. The damage to the government, however, was so extensive that the imperial administration never regained the same level of integrity and efficiency it had enjoyed under the early Ch'ing emperors.
So, I think my new suggestions would be:

Kangxi 8/9/9
Yangzheng 5/8/6
Qianlong 7/8/7

Also, from the sound of this description, the Heshen event should be more like a "terrible minister" event than what it currently is, and should cause at least a -3 DROP in Admin rating. Also (and I've said this before) the three Feudatories rebellion should be tag based, not revoltrisk based.
 

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Here's a cool (unrelated to the larger debate) event idea I get from the above text:
Code:
event = {
id = XXXXX
random = no
country = CHI
name = "Yangzheng's fight against corruption"
desc = "The administration of the Yangzheng emperor worked effectively because he was absolutely tireless in his administration of government.  He kept all his officials on a very short leash and punished incompetence, insubordination, and corruption with an unmatched fury.  He expanded Kangzi's personal intelligence-gathering network into a secret police feared by every government official. 

He did not fight corruption with just a heavy hand; he also rewarded officials for not being corrupt by setting up an "integrity nourishing allowance." This allowance rewarded virtuous service and partially eliminated the temptation to charge surtaxes or to take bribes."

date = { year = 1724 }

action_a = {
  name = "Carrot and stick"
  command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 1 }
  command = { type = stability value = -2 }
  command = { type = cash value = -200 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 2 }
  command = { type = inflation value = -10 }
}

action_b = {
  name = "Just the carrot"
  command = { type = cash value = -200 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
  command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
  command = { type = inflation value = -5 }
}

action_c = {
  name = "Just the stick"
  command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 1 }
  command = { type = stability value = -2 }
  command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
  command = { type = inflation value = -5 }
}

action_d = {
  name = "Neither carrot nor stick"
  command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}
All the options are net positives in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

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I'm gone on a semi-vacation and had some time to do some reasearch for japan. Enough to finally be able to do two major things.

1. some draft Wako (Japanese merchant-pirates) events will now be done. I'd like to expand them, but that would require overall approach to how we deal with major pirate raids (more major than a ship offshore).

2, The entire Onin wars will be redone vastly. In fact half the japanese events will be scrapped in the end as they work together in a omplex string as it fits now which is far too hard to intergrate.
 

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Jinnai said:
In fact half the japanese events will be scrapped in the end as they work together in a omplex string as it fits now which is far too hard to intergrate.
Good idea. I once made a chart of which vanilla Japanese events trigger and sleep one another. It was insane. The only conclusion I could draw was that the chain ("lattice" would be a better word) was not working as intended.

With the extra tags at our disposal the old events probably don't make sense anyway.
 
Last edited:

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doktarr said:
Maybe he should be better than Yangzheng then?
Also (and I've said this before) the three Feudatories rebellion should be tag based, not revoltrisk based.
Maybe give Zhou all the provinces of three Feudatories and Shaanxi (another revolter with them) to model the much stronger resistance. BTW, is there any way to model the war with Taiwan? Give China an admiral Shi Lang to defeat Taiwan navy. It would be interesting.

Off topic, Kangxi and Qianlong conquered Turkistan (CHG). Yangzheng conquered Qinghai and Qianlong took Tibet under rule after helping expel the Nepel. Should we give China core on CHG and inheritance of TIB with events? Since they are of all wrong religion/culture and poor, China will not benefit by getting them. Actually, China will have more pain of cost of stability and tech to model the tech lag and frequent revolter in late Qing dynasty. Maybe should give permanent provincerisk reduction in Tibet with wrong religion and culture for historical modeling.
 
Last edited:

rimskych

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jchiang said:
Maybe give Zhou all the provinces of three Feudatories and Shaanxi (another revolter with them) to model the much stronger resistance. BTW, is there any way to model the war with Taiwan? Give China an admiral Shi Lang to defeat Taiwan navy. It would be interesting.

Off topic, Kangxi and Qianlong conquered Turkistan (CHG). Yangzheng conquered Qinghai and Qianlong took Tibet under rule after helping expel the Nepel. Should we give China core on CHG and inheritance of TIB with events? Since they are of all wrong religion/culture and poor, China will not benefit by getting them. Actually, China will have more pain of cost of stability and tech to model the tech lag and frequent revolter in late Qing dynasty. Maybe should give permanent provincerisk reduction in Tibet with wrong religion and culture for historical modeling.

From my point of view, permanent provincerisk reduction should be AI-event only, since players know clearly how to handle that.
 

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Japan's first flavor event:
Code:
event = {
	id = 242999
	random = no
	country = NIP
	year = 1423
	condition = {
			NOT = { war = { country = NIP country = KOR } }
			relation = { country = KOR value = 25 }
		}
	name = "7000 copies of the Tripitoka arrive from Korea"
	desc = "After years of waiting a repeated requests, an envoy arrives from Korea  with 7000 copies of the Tripitoka (Three Baskets), canon Buddhist literature. According to the Koreans, this is said to have been every known copy in all of Korea."

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = relaition which = KOR value = 25 }
		}

	}
 
Last edited:

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jchiang said:
Off topic, Kangxi and Qianlong conquered Turkistan (CHG). Yangzheng conquered Qinghai and Qianlong took Tibet under rule after helping expel the Nepel. Should we give China core on CHG and inheritance of TIB with events? Since they are of all wrong religion/culture and poor, China will not benefit by getting them. Actually, China will have more pain of cost of stability and tech to model the tech lag and frequent revolter in late Qing dynasty. Maybe should give permanent provincerisk reduction in Tibet with wrong religion and culture for historical modeling.
Tibet was never really part of the Chinese Empire. It was always self governing. It sent tribute to the Emperor and received a subsidy in return. It should be vassalized, not conquered.

Additionally, there was a lot of confusion over the arrangement. The Chinese believed that the Emperor was the Supreme force on planet earth and that the Dalai Lama, as a sort of High Priest of the Empire, was subservient to him. The Tibetans, with their highly religious governmental system held the Church before the State and thus, Beijing was REALLY subservient to Lhasa. Sort of interesting really...
 

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I have a British 19th century map that lists Tibet as part of the "Chinese Empire" and not as an independent state.....so whilst it might not be part of China proper, it certainly didnt have all the vestiges of statehood, as China frequently sent troops into the area when it pleased.

Vassalisation is definite; perhaps an option b can be put in, giving the Chinese player cores over the region but get rebellions and a stability hit? And if at any time Lhasa is owned by China, more stability and RR boosting events.
 

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China sent in soldiers to re-affirm the Dalai Lama's power over the region on several occasions. BUT not until the early 20th century [right before the Qing Dynasty collapsed] did the Chinese attempt to directly govern Tibet. This is typical of vassal-suzerain relationships. Tibet was always domestically independent--its foreign affairs [not that it had any] were run through Peking.

Both the Qing and the Dalai Lamas were happy with the Dalai Lama serving as a sort of "high priest" of the Empire. The Great Fifth Dalai Lama was helped to power with the aid of Qing troops, while the 10th [or 11th...] Dalai Lama led the ceremony at the funeral of the last Qing Emperor to die in office [albeit in a state of house arrest].
 

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Norrefeldt said:
Nice event. Adding 1 in stab is a lot for a flavour event, perhaps adding infrastructure?
Maybe, but japan has tons of instability events for the 1st half of the game, moreso than any other nation, perhaps even the timruid empire, or it will. A few adding stability will be like an oasis to a plyer.

But this isn't enough to be a main event as stability +1 isn't nearly so much as most of the other events nor is it as important as regular events.
 

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Code:
###########################
##Yoshimasa's Extravange ##
###########################
event = {
	id = 970012
	random = yes
	country = NIP
	trigger = {
		NOT = { stability value = 3 }
		monarch = 07354
		}
	name = "Yoshimasa's extravagant donations."
	desc = "Yoshimasa often made signifigant donations to important buddhist monistaries and shinto shrines throughout japan."

	action_a = {
		name = "Make a donation"
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -50 }
		command = { type = domestic which = narrowmindedness value = 1 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 970013
	country = NIP
	trigger = {
		NOT = { stability value = 3 }
		monarch = 07354
		}
	name = "Yoshimasa's extravagant gifts."
	desc = "Yoshimasa often made signifigant gifts to various groups or indivisuals."

	action_a = {
		name = "Make a donation"
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -50 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -1 }
		}
	}
Code:
event = {
	id = 242000
	random = no
	country = NIP
	trigger = { monarch = 07352 }
	name = "Mochiuiji's Rebellion"
	desc = "Kantou Kanrai Uyesugi Norizane has been attacked by Shogun-Daikan Mochiuji after he was rebuked for being a nuisance. Mochiuji, who resents the fact that a 'unfrocked monk,' Ashikaga Yoshinori, had succeeded to title of Shogun, has  ambititions for himself and his sons to rule as Shogun rebelled against the Ashikaga."
	style = 0
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1430 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day 1 month = january year = 1432 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Supress and punish Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 3 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		}

	action_b = {
		name = "Surpess and execute Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 6 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = sleepevent value = 242001 }
		command = { type = sleepevent value = 242002 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 242001
	random = no
	country = NIP
	trigger = { monarch = 07352 }
	name = "Mochiuiji's Rebellion"
	desc = "Once again Mochiuji rebels against the Ashikaga Shogunate. Uyesugi Norizane has asked that Mochiuji's life be spared despite his rebellion."
	style = 0
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1438 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day 1 month = january year = 1439 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Surpess and execute Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 6 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = sleepevent value = 242002 }
		}

	action_a = {
		name = "Supress and punish Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 3 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		}
	}

event = { #Ahistorical Revolt
	id = 242002
	random = no
	country = NIP
	trigger = { monarch = 07352 }
	name = "Mochiuiji's Rebellion"
	desc = "Once again Mochiuji rebels against the Ashikaga Shogunate. Uyesugi Norizane has asked that Mochiuji's life be spared despite his rebellion. This time Mochiuji does not have as many followers and it will likely be the last time he can attempt a rebellion."
	style = 0
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1441 }
	offset = 30

	action_a = {
		name = "Surpess and execute Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 5 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		}

	action_a = {
		name = "Supress and punish Mochiuji"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 2 }
		command = { type = revolt value = 685 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 242003
	random = no
	country = NIP
	trigger = { monarch = 07354 }
	name = "Constuction of a new Muromachi Palace"
	desc = "Yoshimasa, while an inept leader for a crumbling state, was much of a lover of the arts. Unable or unwilling to cope with keeping the Shougnate from deterorating faster he instead decided after a few attempts to devote himself and thus the Kyoto court to the realm of the arts and pleasure. /n In 1458 he started constuction of a new and vastly more lavish palace for the Emperor. This was by far his most expensive project. Even during the famine of 1461 he forced the populace to continue construction until he was chastised by the Emperor in a satyrical poem."
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1458 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1463 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = treasury value = -500 }
		command = { type = gainmanufactory which = 685 value = luxury }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = 1 }
		command = { type = infra value = 50 }
		command = { type = vp value = 100 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 242004
	random = no
	country = NIP
	trigger = { monarch = 07354 }
	name = "The Week Long Play"
	desc = "In 1464 Yoshimasa held a perfomace of the Tadasu-gawara Kanjin-Sangaku Ki. This play, directed by Kanze Tayu-Matasaburo, was of the highest order. The occasion was of such extravagance that it lasted for an entire week, with several other players done on alternate days."
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1464
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 23 month = december year = 1464
	
	action_a = {
		name = "Hold the festivities!"
		command = { type = treasury value = -200 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
		command = { type = vp value = 50 }
		}
	}
These are the new events i've added. I will be redoing numbering for japanese historical events anyway so i know about the current id conflicts. There are only 1 choice on the Yoshimasa ones because japan is suppose to go into debt.
 

Khephren

Watery Tart
23 Badges
Mar 29, 2003
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Also, there is no 'random =' statement or dates in those first two.